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so i realized i was prolly doing it wrong posting all that stuff in the other thread, so ill make a private thread you guys can peruse at yer leisure. if all the other posts i made are moved here i don't mind.
so talking with people, it seems a lot are confused by the medium. it seems like you have a ton of options, all up front, and it can be quite overwhelming. i have some time, so ill go over the options here.
at level one you can seance spirits, and once a day trance as a full round action to get a second or boost the one you have.
spirits, by stat:
str:
big sky - +1 attack and +1 damage; +2 cmd/cmb while trying to break grapple; ignore 1 point of dr *trance: +1 ac, +1 reflex *
bear - +1 attack and +1 damage; +2 str to break things; 2 claw attacks *trance: enlarge person*
beating - +1 attack and +1 damage; +1 attack and +2 damage vs people you have already damaged; improved unarmed strike, treat fists like monk-4 *trance: if you flank all allies flank and gain +1 attack*
dex:
cricket - +1 ac and +1 reflex; +2 on saves against entangle, stagger, and paralysis effects; +10 move speed and ignore difficult terrain *trance +1 attack and +2 damage for every 20' moved in a round*
rabbit - +1 ac and +1 reflex; +2 cmd vs disarm and sunder; weapon finesse, +1 attack and +1 damage *trance: immediate action to make attacks against you or enemies you threaten hit on 11+ instead of normal roll*
demon's lantern - +1 ac and +1 reflex; +2 on sleight of hand; move action visible trap that does level/2 d6 damage, dancing lights at will *trance standard action trap shield that triggers 20% of the time and does level/2 d6 to attacker*
con:
the desert - +3 hp, +1 fort; +2 vs disease and temperature effects; you and a friend can trade one point of damage back and forth forever *trance when someone removes a debuff from you, you get +1 attack, +1 damage, and +1 saves for a round*
teamster - +3 hp, +1 fort; +2 on saves against fatigue, exhaustion,
sleep, or knock-out effects; endurance and diehard as bonus feats, treat con as 3 higher when dying *trance: when dying no longer disabled and get 1 temp hp/round*
waxworks - +3 hp, +1 fort; +2 vs polymorph; melee attacks reduce speed by 5' for a round, if speed is reduced to half the target is entangled *trance if you hit a guy you hit at least 2-3 times already this round there is a chance they are immobilized*
int:
hidden truth - +1 on all skills; +2 on perception vs secret doors; always get a check to notice secret doors within 10' *trance +2 on knowledge checks and always take 10*
vision - +1 on all skills; +2 on spellcraft and know(arcana), standard action linguistics check to give ally +1 attack/+1 saving throw once per day per target *trance does nothing until level 4*
rakshasa - +1 on all skills; +2 on intimidate vs attitude; intimidate vs attitude lasts longer *trance does nothing until level 4, after level 4 you can trade your character away for no mechanical benefit*
wis:
winged serpent - +1 will, +1 concentration (?); +2 init; always act in suprise round, +1 attack and +1 damage against flatfooted in surprise round *trance uncanny dodge (full round action to gain this? ouch)*
owl - +1 will, +1 concentration (?); +2 on Heal and Know(nature), +1 attack and +1 damage against targets with 1/4 hp (functionally nothing against almost all cr 1 creatures) *trance +1 attack and +1 damage after you knock out an opponent for 1 round*
lost - +1 will, +1 concentration (?); +2 vs language dependent effects; +1 on confusion rolls within 120 feet (yes, that is 1%), you can become confused as a swift action (why?), when creatures are equidistant, you choose which to attack while confused (situational at best) *trance hide alignment for a minute (in case you have a full round before someone detects you?)*
cha:
unicorn - +2 on aid another checks; aid another for +3 (doesn't stack with other aid bonuses) and they get the bonus for the next 3 actions (awesome!) *trance aid another for attack gives +1 damage, aid another for defense gives +1 to saves*
the twin - choose another spirit and get its powers, but +2 disguise instead of the second one * trance does stone cold nothing til level 5, after which it still does functionally nothing*
liar - +2 on bluff, +1 on charisma checks vs creatures that are already helpful and could be attracted to you (so +1 bluff vs some helpful creatures) *trance does nothing til 4, after which it lets you ignore cha checks to influence charmed creatures*
it seems like a lot right? well mebbe it is, so choose a number of these equal to your charisma mod, and that is how many different ones you know. easier now right? so like 1-4 known. lets max it out, choose 4 you like. now choose one of those you want to use. every day you can choose a different one. its like you are a cleric who can switch between four domains but no spells per day. each even level you get to know a new spirit.
now do that for 3 entire levels, nothing new being added.
at level 4 things get exciting, you can cast a spell per day! actually since we have 18 charisma we can do 2 spells per day. granted, you only know 2 spells, and they are tied to spirits, and level one spells, but you can cast them 2 times per day. i meant to say it is exciting because you can now trance rakshasa and lose your character in exchange for casting command on an npc and letting the dm decide what the command does (exciting!). also at level 4 all those +1 to random things is now +2.
at level 5 things get more real, you get to choose a second power from your pool of spirits. look at the third powers from the spirits, you now at level 5 get to choose a second one to have all day. so at fifth level we have 2 abilities, and 2 spells per day. so yeah, still not anything actually new being added.
at level 6 the trance power is now a standard action and we can use it more. effectively another dead level, as no new options are available.
at level 7, the trance powers become base powers, and some new trance powers become available. i don't really wanna describe them all, because whether they are good or not does not make up for levels 1-6.
from levels 1-6 you are doing the exact same nothing every day. sure, you get to know more spirits, but they do not gain powers until 7. taking a level in this class is great, but each level after that is worth less and less until level 7.
if wizards learned second level spells at level 7, they would still have more options per day than this class.
Thanks! I will move your other posts over here at your request to get them all together.
EDIT: Not actually sure if I can. I'm new to this moderating thing. I'll ask people who know better later, but for now, if you repost 'em, I can remove 'em from the other one so they're all here for easier access.
Thanks! I will move your other posts over here at your request to get them all together.thanks mark! sorry for bogging up the other post
No problem--I appreciate your thoroughness, and I get that it can sometimes be easier to post once for each thing (and also saves you from the dreaded page crash where you lose your one awesome post full of win).
THIS is what I was hoping the Shaman would be...and it's tied with Spiritualist as my favorite.
I'm assuming using the Harrow as "spirit archtypes" is just flavor ?
My first impression is that this is built around synergizing a party. It seems like the "Seance Boon" is intended to buff up a party, but they seem mostly pretty weak and circumstantial. It's also not clear to me if the Medium gains the Seance Boon himself at first level.
More than that, it seems like an awful lot of paperwork to have to put up with. A lot more than, say, a Druid with an AC or a Master Summoner. Even with only four spirits to choose from, I feel like I would need a flow chart to keep track of how they interact with each other, especially if one is Charisma-oriented. If I read it right, there's no point in adding a like-abilitied spirits as a secondary because you won't get their powers and the bonus will be identical.
The limit on spirits lends itself to a specialized build, which contrasts with the flavor of the fluff text (a new role every day!).
Also, I notice wands will work based on which spirit you have. Unfortunately, the best spirit power for melee (Broken Shackles) means you have Burst Bonds as your low level wand-ready spell. A wand of Burst Bonds is pretty useless (if you need it, you almost certainly can't reach it). A wand of Enlarge Person would be handy, but it's coupled with one of the suboptimal powers - claws. BTW, claws would be a lot better if you could apply that "ignore DR" to them...
Nm, I'm reading the Dual Vessel thing and applying it to Trance and also reading it wrong.
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i was trying to point out that the options are not as deep as you would think. its pretty simple, choose one of the full powers from the ones i posted. at level one you can always choose to either get the third part of a different power or the trance power of your current spirit for one minute per day. you get additional uses of this 1/day power as you level up, but not many more. at 5th level you choose either the first part or the third part of another power (with limitations for some reason) that yo know, to have for the whole day. none of the powers are really any better than rogue talents.
so at first level (the best level) you get a grab bag of rogue talents that you can change each day, and then you dont get anything new until 4th level, when you get the equivalent of the major magic rogue talent. at 7th you get full access to the second level of your powers, which you have had access to since level 1, and you can access the 3rd level of your powers by using your 3/day power. from 7th you dont gain anything new until 13th, which is where the class functionally stops, as you now have access to everything useful you will get. so levels 1, 7 and 13 are great, and by that i mean they are like levels 3 and 5 for a wizard. none of the high level powers seem on par with what a 13th level rogue/druid/cleric/bard can do.
So, I've put together my level 1 Medium and I'm going to be playing this Saturday in PFS, running Emerald Spire 1. The character is a rebuild from an unused character with 2 experience, so I had reasonable starting gold to work with. I'm not saying it's ZOMGTHEBESTTHINGEVER, but the character fulfills a specific niche concept I'd been sitting on for years.
At first blush, I think the BAB/HD should be full/10 instead of mid/8. Beyond that, though, I'm failing to see how this class has fewer options 1-8 than a Fighter. The only thing I see that is particularly painful is the inability to take Power Attack until level 3 because of the mid-BAB. Beyond that, it seems as though you can shift around to have a few different relevant options pretty quickly with the use of feats. If you intend to use certain spirits consistently that grant feats (see: The Beating), you can use them as the prereqs for other feats (Imp Grapple). That means that, at level 7, when you have The Bear as primary and The Beating as secondary, you can turn into a huge creature and grapple pretty effectively.
There is depth here. I agree with the BAB/HD argument, but I don't see the options as significantly limiting. They're not nearly as power creep as other options I've seen out there, but it just needs a bit more exploration.
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So, I've put together my level 1 Medium and I'm going to be playing this Saturday in PFS, running Emerald Spire 1. The character is a rebuild from an unused character with 2 experience, so I had reasonable starting gold to work with. I'm not saying it's ZOMGTHEBESTTHINGEVER, but the character fulfills a specific niche concept I'd been sitting on for years.
At first blush, I think the BAB/HD should be full/10 instead of mid/8. Beyond that, though, I'm failing to see how this class has fewer options 1-8 than a Fighter. The only thing I see that is particularly painful is the inability to take Power Attack until level 3 because of the mid-BAB. Beyond that, it seems as though you can shift around to have a few different relevant options pretty quickly with the use of feats. If you intend to use certain spirits consistently that grant feats (see: The Beating), you can use them as the prereqs for other feats (Imp Grapple). That means that, at level 7, when you have The Bear as primary and The Beating as secondary, you can turn into a huge creature and grapple pretty effectively.
There is depth here. I agree with the BAB/HD argument, but I don't see the options as significantly limiting. They're not nearly as power creep as other options I've seen out there, but it just needs a bit more exploration.
if this class had full bab and martial weapon proficiency yeah, it would be on par with a fighter. as it is, however, the lack of those makes them on par with warrior or adept
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so i'm building a level 4 medium for pfs tomorrow, and this is how it is currently looking (seanced demon's lantern):
Justice Certainly
Male gnome medium 4
CN Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +3; Senses darkvision; Perception -2
DEFENSE
AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +3 Dex, +1 size, +2 spirit)
hp 35 (4d8+12)
Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2; +2 bonus against language dependent spells or effects
Defensive Abilities magical linguist
OFFENSE
Speed 15 ft.
Ranged +1 underwater light crossbow +8 (1d6+1/19-20)
Special Attacks Omen 1/day, Fool's Lantern (2d6 reflex DC 18), Trance 2/day
Medium Spells Known (CL 4th; concentration +10)
1st (3)—dancing lantern, faerie fire (DC 17)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 4th; concentration +10)
1/day--arcane mark, comprehend languages, message, read magic
STATISTICS
Str 5, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 23
Base Atk +3; CMB -1; CMD 12
Feats Antagonize, Skill Focus (intimidate)
Skills Intimidate +17, Knowledge (local) +8, Linguistics +5
Languages Aklo, Ancient Osiriani, Aquan, Common, Giant, Gnome, Infernal, Orc, Osiriani, Sylvan, Tien, Undercommon
SQ academician, gift of tongues, magical linguist, shared seance, spirit, spirit bonus +2, weapon familiarity
PC Gear mithral mountain-pattern armor, +1 underwater light crossbow, headband of alluring charisma +2
Spirits Known cricket, demon's lantern, hidden truth, lost, owl, rakshasa, teamster, twin
the designer has mentioned he has played with str spirits and that they seem good, i am curious how the class will play if i focus on one of the other stats. the lantern's wisp ability is the only power that really seems neat to me right now, but i'll see how it plays. while seanced like this, i can trance for higher wisp, for crickets speed boost and terrain ignoring, for lost's ability to make confusion slightly better, or for rakshasa's longer intimidate.
this build also lets me seance teamster to be more tanky, trancing owl for a damage boost. twin is included as a mebbe, if i trance demon's lantern i could seance twin the next day and have different trancing options.