Here's the thought ... I don't like how charisma covers so many disparate and unquantifiable things. So, I want Charisma to become 'Power' ... purely a stat to measure the potency of spells and spell-like abilities.
SO ...
All spell and spell-like abilities have Save DCs based off Charisma, regardless of source or class (barring some weird case I haven't come across yet, and creatures who lack Charisma scores). This includes psionics.
The extant Charisma-based skills are divvied up as follows:
INT-based: Bluff, Disguise, Perform
WIS-based: Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate
Use Magic Device remains Charisma-Based.
Abilities and effects that drain Charisma based on things like inducing deformities will be adjusted ... somehow, depends on the effect/ability. I'll jump off that bridge when I get to it.
I'm aware that this encourages dumping the stat for martial characters even more than it already does, and I'm good with that.
Because will saves have nothing to do with one's innate magical ability. It's more like the magical equivalent of Strength.
Can Bards still use Charisma for Perform since they are charisma casters and using perform to cheat at skill checks is one of their things?
In a homebrew game system that I casually tinker with for fun, Charisma has been changed to Spirit and it is the driving ability behind nearly all spellcasting. I define Spirit as the ability to bend and manipulate the world to your will. If you have a high Spirit, you can bend magical energy to your will, but you can also bend other people to your will (aka leadership, diplomacy, etc.) I still think it works for the Cha-based skills.
And I have Spirit adding to Will saves, not Wisdom (which is also changed in my system). I still can't figure out why Will is Wisdom based instead of Charisma. It just seems so very obvious.
I'll have to give it more thought, but I'm leaning towards 'no'. Partially because I think that ability is ridiculous in concept, partially because I don't like how it effectively gives the bard double value on skill points. Rogues might actually be the most skilled class in the game then (unlikely, but it's a nice thought).
In a homebrew game system that I casually tinker with for fun, Charisma has been changed to Spirit and it is the driving ability behind nearly all spellcasting. I define Spirit as the ability to bend and manipulate the world to your will. If you have a high Spirit, you can bend magical energy to your will, but you can also bend other people to your will (aka leadership, diplomacy, etc.) I still think it works for the Cha-based skills.
And I have Spirit adding to Will saves, not Wisdom (which is also changed in my system). I still can't figure out why Will is Wisdom based instead of Charisma. It just seems so very obvious.
I tend to think of the mental stats as ...
INT: Mental Dexterity (Quickness)WIS: Mental Constitution (Defense)
CHA: Mental Strength (Offense)
I'm not a huge fan of Wisdom affecting perception, but that's a topic for another thread.
Yeah but both Intelligence and Wisdom do things for characters that don't use them as casting stats. Take Pragmatic Activator and suddenly Charisma is a worthless stat with absolutely no penalty for dumping, and it already had a hilariously low penalty for dumping to begin with.
Well, yes, I'm aware of that. Feature, not bug.
Keeping charisma skills as they are now makes sense with charisma purely as force of personality. That said traits to make bluff int based (smart enough to come up with good lies) or diplomacy wis based (being able to read the person to know what the right thing to say to them is) would be great to have available too.
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Oh after re reading i see i failed to notice that you WANT charisma to be nothing but a dump stat for almost all classes as a benifit for all but a couple of classes.
Yeah, basically.
I don't feel like it's all-encompassing enough somehow, though, because of the number of spells it doesn't affect at all (a magus thread made me think of this). Maybe tie caster level to it somehow? That might be TOO easy on the CHA-casters, though ...
Dump Strength, no good melee damage without stretching your feats and you can't carry stuff.
Dump Dexterity, you not only loose your AC and a bunch of good skills, but initiative goes in the toilet and your reflex saves.
Dump Constitution, bye bye HP.
Dump Intelligence, your skill ranks suffer.
Dump Wisdom, low perception and bad will saves.
Dump Charisma....the only penalty is you don't get to be the party face.
It's a very easy penalty to deal with compared to the other stats, in fact it's too easy to dump if you ask me. If you're gonna go that route then make Cha the will save stat and UMD Int based, that way there's some sort of penalty, and a harsh one at that. Wis is used for Perception so you still don't want to dump that because most important skill in the game. If you still want something for wisdom then make it the initiative roll mod instead of dexterity, it has plenty to do anyway.
'Innate magical ability' does not relate to will saves.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER WITH NON-CASTERS DUMPING CHARISMA UNDER THIS SYSTEM. THAT IS WHAT IT'S DESIGNED TO DO.
It effectively takes a stat away from Martials (and gives them a higher point buy, since they can drop it to 7), while adding some MAD to casters. The CHA casters are the main sticking point here, since they remain SAD.
Had bad experiences with a homebrew that tried tweaking with how ability scores operated early in my introduction to pathfinder, and all I could see was trouble from that point forward.
My mind is full of nope at this suggestion. This kind of system is making casters MAD like martials, and the issue of Martials VS Casters isn't going to be resolved to anyone's pleasure by dragging one half down into the mud.
Had bad experiences with a homebrew that tried tweaking with how ability scores operated early in my introduction to pathfinder, and all I could see was trouble from that point forward.
My mind is full of nope at this suggestion. This kind of system is making casters MAD like martials, and the issue of Martials VS Casters isn't going to be resolved to anyone's pleasure by dragging one half down into the mud.
Au contraire, I think it's much better to make casters unbroken than it is to make all classes equally game-breaking.
Why not just remove Charisma entirely and replace everything that used it with Intelligence or Wisdom?
Why not just remove Charisma entirely and replace everything that used it with Intelligence or Wisdom?
*facepalm*
Because I want Charisma to be the stat for innate magical ability, and I want to add MAD to casters.
Like I said, it's the Charisma casters that are throwing me. Considering that their abilities are functionally innate, perhaps their other casting stat could be Constitution, representing how much energy their body can handle channeling ...
I'd probably switch the bard to INT-based, since I made Perform an INT-based skill, thinking about it.
If you do go this route, it may make sense to introduce some other attribute dependency to charisma based casters.
I'd probably switch the bard to INT-based, since I made Perform an INT-based skill, thinking about it.
That makes the bard even less MAD than before.
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what would the 7th stat be? Luck?
also I would totally leave ST, DX, and CON out.
it looks like you are probably stuck with INT=(arcane), WIS=(divine), and POW=(both), which isn't necessarily a bad thing so you might as well try to make it work for yourself.
like,
maybe both Wizard and Sorcerer are INT+POW
but a Wizard has class features that strongly incentivize INT
and a Sorcerer has class features that strongly incentivize POW
Yeah, basically.
I don't feel like it's all-encompassing enough somehow, though, because of the number of spells it doesn't affect at all (a magus thread made me think of this). Maybe tie caster level to it somehow? That might be TOO easy on the CHA-casters, though ...
You could tie to to max spell level, maybe. You need Cha Score-10 = spell level to be able to prepare/know a spell?
Yeah, working on it.
I'm thinking maybe all casters should be INT/POW. Since the first stat governs your highest spell level, and how many spells you can know/prep at a time, which seems to relate more to INT than anything ... yeah ... nice and simple!
I've seen this suggested before, and I have the same response. This hurts the already MAD gish classes more than it hurts the full casters. Don't forget this will also hurt the martial classes that get spell-like abilities, like the qinggong monk.
You could tie to to max spell level, maybe. You need Cha Score-10 = spell level to be able to prepare/know a spell?Yeah, basically.
I don't feel like it's all-encompassing enough somehow, though, because of the number of spells it doesn't affect at all (a magus thread made me think of this). Maybe tie caster level to it somehow? That might be TOO easy on the CHA-casters, though ...
INT for bonus spells, CHA for spell level and saving throws ... I like that, too. Must ponder.
I've seen this suggested before, and I have the same response. This hurts the already MAD gish classes more than it hurts the full casters. Don't forget this will also hurt the martial classes that get spell-like abilities, like the qinggong monk.
Monks aren't a thing in the game world, so not an issue.
Why not just remove Charisma entirely and replace everything that used it with Intelligence or Wisdom?*facepalm*
Because I want Charisma to be the stat for innate magical ability, and I want to add MAD to casters.
or help reduce it for arcanist.
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My thought is no...
The charisma based casters tend to have either: few skill points OR few spells that they can cast. Charisma rarely factors into saves unless we're talking paladins or divine casters who can take the divine protection feat.
It is already a dump stat.
Allowing charisma casters to have a bonus in social skills is about the only thing balancing them against the int and wis casters.
I prefer the present system where the stats are more balanced.
Hmm
Hybrids would need some sort of class based work around. There stat spread would make them unmanageable otherwise. You could add bonuses to spell dc's at intervals similar to the monks scaling dodge bonus or something.
or help reduce it for arcanist.Why not just remove Charisma entirely and replace everything that used it with Intelligence or Wisdom?*facepalm*
Because I want Charisma to be the stat for innate magical ability, and I want to add MAD to casters.
Banned, not an issue.
What about magi? Bloodragers? Skalds? Bards? Alchemists? Hunters? Rangers? Warpriests? Even oracles and sorcerers suffer, too.
I've seen plenty of efforts to nerf spellcasters when the individual simply wants to hit the wizard and/or cleric, since they're the most powerful and problematic spellcasters in the game. Often these solutions hurt the other spellcasters more than the classes the individual wants to nerf. This is the case with your idea, even though I do think it's thematically sound.
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the OPs goal is to make caster's MAD. my personal philosophy is to bring martials up rather than casters down. but this thread isn't about my personal philosophy. c'mon people.
i think INT/WIS should be bonus Spells Known and/or bonus Spells Per Day
where POW is DCs
also, i think people's concerns about hybrids are valid - in which case maybe POW as a SAD-caster complimented by the usual necessities for ST/DX/CON might be an inherent balance?
maybe the way to cast this is to create a new dichotomy: Dedicated and Hybrid.
Dedicated - 9-level, POW for DCs, either INT/WIS for bonus spells
Hybrid - 6-level or 4-level, POW for DCs, no bonus spells
so i've mentioned this before to me the stats are (as a GM)
strength, dexterity, constitution
then mental constitution, the ability to make mental things last, aka memory, and remembrence.
Wisdom is mental dexterity, the ability to think quickly and defend your mind from attack.
Charisma is mental Strength, the ability to enforce your will onto the world around you, through personal magnetism or pure force of will. (people tend to like people who are sure of them self)
these are physical stats, in that they set limits on people, instead of shaping their personality or looks.
also, why ban arcanists? they're wholly worse than wizards but give them some on the spot adaptability in exchange.
Well, yes, all spellcasters need a good once-over in a dark alley with a nerfbat. That much is obvious to me.
Making INT for bonus spells and CHA for saving throws gets pretty much everybody, as far as I can tell. Max spell level is almost inconsequential (it's a rare day I run a d20 game past about level 10).
There are other nerfs in the works as well, of course, for the full casters.
Charisma in your world has become a mechanism for a very specific type of balance you want, but in no way reflects what it really is as an attribute.
Of course it does. It reflects what I want it to reflect; I'm redefining the stat. And since I'll be renaming it 'Power' anyway ...
Well, yes, all spellcasters need a good once-over in a dark alley with a nerfbat. That much is obvious to me.
Making INT for bonus spells and CHA for saving throws gets pretty much everybody, as far as I can tell. Max spell level is almost inconsequential (it's a rare day I run a d20 game past about level 10).
There are other nerfs in the works as well, of course, for the full casters.
if you want to make max spell level actually something to work towards, double the level required or effectively make the spell level equal to the mod for the stat. then people might actually worry about it under your system. Then give an exception for 1/2 casters.
the OPs goal is to make caster's MAD.
Yeah, I've only said that, what, three or four times? :p
Well, yes, all spellcasters need a good once-over in a dark alley with a nerfbat. That much is obvious to me.
Why not buff the martial classes?
Well, yes, all spellcasters need a good once-over in a dark alley with a nerfbat. That much is obvious to me.Why not buff the martial classes?
martials don't have an overarching system other than BAB.
I tend to think of the mental stats as ...
INT: Mental Dexterity (Quickness)
WIS: Mental Constitution (Defense)
CHA: Mental Strength (Offense)I'm not a huge fan of Wisdom affecting perception, but that's a topic for another thread.
Personally, I've always thought if any ability ought to be decoupled it would be Dexterity by making it into (manual) Dexterity [DEX] and (bodily) Agility [AGI]. Fine and gross motor skills are not the same thing, and I could see this being useful for races (like Dwarves) that might have nimble fingers (Dexterity) but not be graceful overall (Agility). The two abilities could have their modifiers added together and divided by half (rounded up) to give a bonus to Reflex Saves.
As for what you suggest, I think there's always room for more finesse when it comes to ability scores, though I'm not sure about stat dumping. It seems to me that all stats ought to be useful to all players in some direct way rather than some of them being very useful to certain classes and dumpable by anyone else. Of course, you could probably also accomplish this by eliminating Charisma and the lowest stat rolled. Who really needs to be a party face when you're doing a joint storytelling of a video game anyway?
Well, yes, all spellcasters need a good once-over in a dark alley with a nerfbat. That much is obvious to me.Why not buff the martial classes?
Because I cannot see how going from half the party being broken to the whole party being broken is any kind of improvement. The point is to make it so nobody can go 'one action, plot is derailed/fight is over'.
also, why ban arcanists? they're wholly worse than wizards but give them some on the spot adaptability in exchange.
That's precisely why. It's bad enough wizards can change their spells on a daily basis, pulling an emergency silver bullet out of your butt at a moment's notice ... no.
That's precisely why. It's bad enough wizards can change their spells on a daily basis, pulling an emergency silver bullet out of your butt at a moment's notice ... no.
also, why ban arcanists? they're wholly worse than wizards but give them some on the spot adaptability in exchange.
they have to, in combat, pull out their spell book as a move action, then as a full round action that provoke AOO switch one of their spells and use one of their daily points...
it's not really an in combat thing.
Because I cannot see how going from half the party being broken to the whole party being broken is any kind of improvement. The point is to make it so nobody can go 'one action, plot is derailed/fight is over'.Well, yes, all spellcasters need a good once-over in a dark alley with a nerfbat. That much is obvious to me.Why not buff the martial classes?
Have you seen the monsters in this game? Even with a completely broken party there's always some way to give them difficult encounters.
In a homebrew game system that I casually tinker with for fun, Charisma has been changed to Spirit and it is the driving ability behind nearly all spellcasting. I define Spirit as the ability to bend and manipulate the world to your will. If you have a high Spirit, you can bend magical energy to your will, but you can also bend other people to your will (aka leadership, diplomacy, etc.) I still think it works for the Cha-based skills.
And I have Spirit adding to Will saves, not Wisdom (which is also changed in my system). I still can't figure out why Will is Wisdom based instead of Charisma. It just seems so very obvious.
I tend to think of the mental stats as ...
INT: Mental Dexterity (Quickness)
WIS: Mental Constitution (Defense)
CHA: Mental Strength (Offense)I'm not a huge fan of Wisdom affecting perception, but that's a topic for another thread.
i like my analogy better.
INT: con - keeping mental stuff together, resist spells that overwhelm the mind with knowledge
WIS: dex - perception and such plus defending against mind effecting attacks? seems like a nimble mind in needed for that.
CHA: str - making people do thing or making the world do things, really seems like the force behind your mind, just like strength is the force behind your body.
Have you seen the monsters in this game? Even with a completely broken party there's always some way to give them difficult encounters.Because I cannot see how going from half the party being broken to the whole party being broken is any kind of improvement. The point is to make it so nobody can go 'one action, plot is derailed/fight is over'.Well, yes, all spellcasters need a good once-over in a dark alley with a nerfbat. That much is obvious to me.Why not buff the martial classes?
I don't use a lot of monsters, I prefer classed NPCs, and I don't believe 'sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander'. Broken things don't go on either side of the screen.