Cultural enthusiasts, I don't have a problem with them, why would others?


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So why is no one whining that asians are using european stereotype themes? White ninja racist, yellow knight ok?


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Krensky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Krensky wrote:


Frankly this sounds more like you not wanting to pay attention to a 'cartoon' than anything wrong with the shows in question.

Its not. And this attitude annoys me greatly. "You don't see this there's something wrong with you"

Quote:
Either that or you're listening to too many nuts who insist that ambiguous or slow to evolve plots and themes equal deeper meaning.
Ambiguity to the point of meaninglessness being given deeper meaning is the problem.
None of the shows you listed was ambiguous to the point of meaninglessness.

I like Big O, Wolf's Rain, & Evangelion. I've got most of them on DVD.

I'm willing to admit that the endings are pretty strange. It's no mark against someone if they don't get them, honestly I'm not entirely sure that I do. I'm not even sure there's really something to get in all of them.

They remind me of university freshmen trying to sound profound after taking intro to philosophy and psychology. Admittedly though, the bizarre endings are somewhat charming to me.


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Kthulhu wrote:
It's people who fervently insist that every aspect of Japense culture is vastly superior to it's equivalents in ANY other culture.

The idiot who praises in enthusiastic tone/Every century but this and any country but his own

Not a recent trend. =)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:
Moby Dick isn't about a whale?

It isn't really. It's more about the men hunting the whale.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
JurgenV wrote:
So why is no one whining that asians are using european stereotype themes? White ninja racist, yellow knight ok?

Because white is considered "normal" culturally. When white people culturally appropriate things like ninja or stuff, we're trying to add "exoticism" which is patronizing to the culture we're taking from.

When a different culture appropriates something we claim is "white," we're flattered that the foreign culture likes our ideas more than their own. They're not trying to be exotic, but trying to be "normal," as we assume "white=normal."


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JurgenV wrote:
So why is no one whining that asians are using european stereotype themes? White ninja racist, yellow knight ok?

Aside from the fact that cultural appropriation comes off as a negative term, and I don't think that whites having an interest in Asian culture is at all negative (insert rant about how "cultural appropriation" is basically how human civilizations have been acting for at least a couple of millennia, and globalization is a larger scale version of a common historical phenomenon), I would be inclined to agree that a lot of it has to do with white Americans perceiving European things as "normal" and Asian things as exotic. We also tend not to really care when other people borrow our stuff, because historically we have been in the majority, so it doesn't feel too strange that others adopt some of our ways. That's fairly common to American history.

I would also point out that different groups don't quite see things the same way. A good example is your use of the word yellow in reference to Asians. This is actually somewhat offensive, yet to use the word white in reference to Europeans or the word black in reference to African-Americans is not offensive. Why is this the case? Historically, yellow has been used to refer to Asians in a very derogatory manner, whereas white has never really been used as a slur towards Europeans, and we had other slurs to throw at African-Americans. As a result, you really shouldn't call any Asian people yellow, but to call someone white or black is almost never insulting. You can apply the same to the idea of other cultures adopting European things. We are very used to this sort of thing (and historically have encouraged it), so it generally doesn't insult us. Other cultures, such as American Indians, have dealt with white people trying to assimilate them into acting like Europeans, so many of them get insulted if we try to borrow things from them. I don't agree with the idea that it is wrong for a white person to have an interest in American Indian cultures, but I can understand how it causes anger to see a white teenage girl pretending to be a war chief, given the history of how we used to portray American Indians in media. Same reason you don't wear blackface anymore. Historically, that has been used to demean people. In essence, wearing blackface or a war bonnet isn't offensive because acting like a member of a culture other than your own is offensive, it's offensive because it mimics behaviors white people used to carry out when mocking or overly simplifying other cultures. That's why a black person who puts on some form of whiteface probably wouldn't catch too much flack. Historically, black people have not put on whiteface to demean white people, so it lacks the level of offense blackface carries.

Now, in the case of East Asian culture, I haven't really heard much anger from East Asians over white people borrowing things. Most of the anger, especially involving the Japanese, seems to come from white Americans who are either overreacting out of a dislike for Japanese media, or find it really creepy that a white person could become completely obsessed with Japanese culture and argue that everything Japanese is totally superior to everything else (in a word, weeaboos). From what I gather, the borrowing of East Asian elements by European fantasy isn't actually all that offensive to most East Asians, so "white ninja racist" isn't actually all that close to what the situation is. If anything, I'd be more suspect about the behavior of some of the white gamers who are hardcore against Asian elements (Not the ones who just don't like them, which is fine, but the hard core folks who constantly rant about white people who do enjoy such elements).

tl;dr: Cultures usually perceive this sort of thing as offensive because of a negative history with it, and not all cultures share that history, especially Europeans (though a fair number of people in Ireland seem to heavily dislike it when Americans claim to be Irish based off of Irish heritage, and I've seen Irish people get somewhat upset about how Americans celebrate St. Patrick's Day). Also, I don't see much to suggest that East Asians generally find it offensive for Americans to borrow Asian cultural elements.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I suppose the problem largely comes when a cultural element is used inappropriately or out of context. I apologize if I offended by use of the term cultural appropriation. I was using it in reference to the afformentioned behavior.

There ARE instances where East Asian cultural elements are used inappropriately, however, like when a person of Chinese or Korean descent is described as wearing a kimono (a Japanese garment) or when geisha are used as a more exotic kind of prostitute (prostitution was as common throughout Japan as anywhere else in the world, but geisha were entertainers, and sex was NOT part of their services).


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Correct, but at the same time the Japanese do that with Americans and Europeans about as much as we do it with them. Distinctions that seem natural to someone who grew up with them aren't natural to someone who didn't, and nobody is smart enough to know all the proper distinctions. An effort should be made to get it right, but I don't think getting stuff wrong is offensive. Unless you buy into misconceptions that are in and of themselves racist, of course.


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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
JurgenV wrote:
So why is no one whining that asians are using european stereotype themes? White ninja racist, yellow knight ok?

Because white is considered "normal" culturally. When white people culturally appropriate things like ninja or stuff, we're trying to add "exoticism" which is patronizing to the culture we're taking from.

When a different culture appropriates something we claim is "white," we're flattered that the foreign culture likes our ideas more than their own. They're not trying to be exotic, but trying to be "normal," as we assume "white=normal."

If you are obsessed with what could be patronizing or offensive, you aren't focusing on what could be fun.

So ninjas serve Oni and try to kill the players. Does it really matter if ninjas and oni come from another culture? Does it lead to a fun game?


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“Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot.
BY ORDER OF THE AUTHOR

-Mark twain.


Scythia wrote:
For people who complain about players always wanting to play Asian or anime inspired characters, I'm curious: do you likewise mind players who insist on playing European renaissance concepts, or Celtic concepts? Like always wanting to play a fully armoured chivalrous knight, or a rugged archery focused woodsman.

If I was running a fantasy that took place in an analogue to Feudal Japan or ancient Persia? Yes.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I'm an iconoclast. I don't like it when something that is a 4 or a 5 gets the glowing recommendations for something that should be reserved for a 10.

Hence my problem with people that gush about katanas.

Yes, the process is cool, but they were doing pattern welding in europe in 200 bc. Its not the height of swordmaking either, that would be India's damascus blades. All that work was mostly to compensate for japans poor quality, sulfur ridden iron and you STILL got a very meh sword. Its a calvary saber for cutting down unarmored peasants from behind or to draw in case your spear broke. Thats it.

For some reason, this reminds me of a weaboo I knew who found a katana and scabbard in a pawn shop... and spent ten minutes trying to reproduce the metallic shing of a sword being drawn.

Conclusion? "They made the scabbard wrong."


LazarX wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:
Moby Dick isn't about a whale?
It isn't really. It's more about the men hunting the whale.

GTFO! You're joking, right?


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Quirel wrote:


For some reason, this reminds me of a weaboo I knew who found a katana and scabbard in a pawn shop... and spent ten minutes trying to reproduce the metallic shing of a sword being drawn.

Conclusion? "They made the scabbard wrong."

...

...

...

For obsessive fans, weaboos seem to not know a lot about Japanese swords. Or swords in general, really. Or samurai, for that matter. I had a weaboo roommate who thought katana meant Japanese sword and samurai were totes more honorable than those who used guns because swords are so manly. I really should have showed him this, but I didn't.


Which is unfortunate, because if they really researched the history of the samurai then would find a lot more interesting tid-bits than what most animes can give you. Hyouge Mono - jocular fellow - being one (rare) anime period piece that was very intriguing and informative about the Sengoku era samurai. It is all intrigue, tea ceremonies, art appreciation, pride, envy, humiliation and gritty death. At one point he flounders on a battlefield and kills someone with his helm. Life was tough, there was also beauty along with betrayal, and fighting was a messy business with many effective weapons in play other than the katana.

The story of samurai rising from being rather low class professionals, and subordinate warriors in a very Chinese influenced political system, to the two periods of civil war they would bring about, (the first one allowing them to seize tremendous amount of power, but meaning that the second civil war was always destined to happen as those feudal warriors would inevitably have to work out which family would be supreme and fill the power vacuum) is a truly fascinating story from history to consider.

Mostly I just wish we could all read more about other cultures, all become cultural enthusiasts in our own way about what interests us, and have a great time.

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