Update to the Combat Guide (v4.0)


Pathfinder Online

CEO, Goblinworks

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I have updated the Combat Guide.

Changes:

Added a section about Effect Power and Effect Protection and modified the description of Stacks and Timers to reflect the effects of the Effect Modifier Formula.

Reorganized some text about Feats and Activation

Major Addition:

Armor and Armor Feats section describing the best options for armor for various armor Feats, and the mechanical effects of the Armor Feats

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Need to add in the fact that the three dot types (afflicted, bleeding, burning) reduce defenses in the Debuffs section on pages 7-8. See Stephen for details.

CEO, Goblinworks

Do you mean more than the new description of the Effect Modifier formula and this new sentence at the end of the "Hit Success Factor and Buffs and Debuffs" paragraph:

"The Effect Modifier function (see above) is then used to proportionally scale the result again."

Goblin Squad Member

Very nice!

Bookmarked.

:)

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Ryan: That part you referenced is referring to when secondary effects are applied and the magnitude of the stack/duration of the timed effect is determined. Eg. scaling the size of a stack by both the effect power minus effect protection and scaling based on hit success. In the case of Action/Movement blockers the defense used in the hit success calculation is increased based on Freedom or Mind Blank as appropriate.

What I'm referring to above is that your defenses (fort/ref/will) are themselves reduced by half of stack size when you have afflicted/bleeding/burning on you. I can't remember which of those reduces which defense, but Stephen should which is why I recommend you mosey on over to his desk. ;)

See here and here where he clarifies that this is the case.


Fort: Bleeding

Reflex: Affliction

Will: Burning


The Recovery Section is incorrect or incomplete.

Edits in Italics

Combat Guide wrote:


Recovery
Stacks of Debuffs in each Channel are removed based on the target's Recovery attribute, which starts at 10 per six seconds. Each Channel has its own 6s timer that starts when the first instance of a stack from that channel is applied to the character (see below for a complete explanation of Channels and their associated buffs and debuffs).

For example, if an unmodified character with Recovery of 10 had acquired 20 stacks of Bleeding, after 6 seconds the character would suffer 2% of its maximum hit points of damage and would have a -20 penalty applied to Fortitude. their Fortitude Defense would be immediately reduced by 10 points (1/2 of the total Bleeding Stacks). After 6s, the character would also suffer 2% of its maximum hit points of damage. Then the Character would Recover and 10 of those stacks of Bleeding would be removed, leaving 10 stacks of Bleeding. This would also reduce the Fortitude penalty from 10 to 5. Another 6 Seconds later the character would suffer 1% of its maximum hit points in damage and would have a -10 penalty applied to Fortitude. Then the character would Recover and the remaining 10 stacks would be removed. 6 seconds later the Fortitude penalty would be removed. The Fortitude penalty is now gone, as well.


It is worth noting that, right now, the system is not working exactly as intended. If multiple instances of the same type of stack are applied (say Bleed 10 is applied 3 times in 6s), the effects stack properly. The character will suffer 3% max hp loss at the end of 6s and has a -15 Fortitude Defense penalty.

However, the game system is not working properly when it comes time to do the Recovery. Rather than pooling all three Bleed 10 instances into one Bleed 30, the game is currently treating each Bleed 10 instance separately and applying Recovery 10 to all of them. So at the end of 6s from the FIRST instance of Bleed 10 being applied, the character recovers from all 3 stacks of Bleed 10, going straight back down to Bleed 0. The intended mechanic is for Recovery to be applied to all three stacks pooled together as Bleed 30, so that, at the end of 6s, the character still has Bleed 20.

In other words...

1 instance of Bleed 30 is NOT equal 3 instances of Bleed 10 for the purposes of Recovery.

I've extensively documented this on the Alpha forums and Stephen has it in the bug log.

Goblin Squad Member

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I have drawn you.

Goblin Squad Member

Will quartering be next?

CEO, Goblinworks

Sspitfire - are you aware that Stephen tested your theory and you're wrong, and what you're seeing is a bug in the character sheet update, not the underlying game logic?

Goblin Squad Member

I find myself drawn...


I'm not talking about the -80 Reflex thing. I'm talking about hitting a mob 3 times in 6s with an attack that applied Bleed 10, then watching all of the Bleed Stacks disappear at the end of the 6th second, leaving no stacks of Bleed on the target (according to their display, anyways).

The Stacks are stacking for the purposes of their effect, but not for the purposes of their Recovery.

Try smacking a level 2 mob 3 times with any attack that applies a stack size of 10 and has an attack speed less than 2 seconds (so you can get 3 in in 6s). When 6s rolls over, all 30'ish stacks will be gone where, as I understand it, 20'ish stacks should still remain.

Unless, of course that is how the system is supposed to be working and we simply had a communication error along the way.


Alright, so I was trying to be helpful, but I have come to the realization that really I was just being ass. My apologies. I'll try to approach these things differently in the future.

Goblin Squad Member

We like donkeys too.

Goblin Squad Member

What do Petitioners Robes do?

People are making them in game but they are not in the book.


they are in Nihimon's stuff.

KW: Clothing/Attuned/Agile/Reinforced

Armor Feats:
Artisan, Chameleon, Outfitter & Rambler 4+ matches Agile, 8+ also matches Reinforced (all Light armors)
Binder & Mage & Scholar 8+ matches Reinforced, 12+ matches Agile (all Clothe armors)

Nothing Matches Attuned yet

But yeah, only Petitioners Robes+3 are of any real value to a wizard, and even then it is a downgrade from other robe +2's or 3's.

There! A helpful post more in line with being a goat than a donkey.

Goblin Squad Member

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Excellent update! Now it is much easier to understand the interaction between armour and feats.
On a similar track I was thinking about the attack feats, what is the ratinale behind that Chop-1 is using a Axe+0, wouldn't it be easeier to name the Attack feats with the same denomation? Like Chop+0, Chop+1 and so on?
Or is it something I haven't' understood yet?

Goblin Squad Member

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I'd like to see a list of the status icons that appear at the ends of the health ribbons to indicate buffs/debuffs and other conditions.

Goblin Squad Member

That is a nice one, Ulf, I begin to get a hang of the combat now and can give some attention to other things than my fingers hitting the rigth keys.

Goblin Squad Member

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The icons indicate groups of buffs/debuffs. Sword is attack related, shield is defense related, cross is resistances, and arrow is movement related.

So a debuff that slows you will show up as a chevron underneath the arrow icon, while a buff that increases your speed will show as a chevron on top of the arrow icon. Lastly, the size of the chevron indicates the stack size of the buff/debuff.


*bump*


sspitfire1 wrote:

I'm not talking about the -80 Reflex thing. I'm talking about hitting a mob 3 times in 6s with an attack that applied Bleed 10, then watching all of the Bleed Stacks disappear at the end of the 6th second, leaving no stacks of Bleed on the target (according to their display, anyways).

The Stacks are stacking for the purposes of their effect, but not for the purposes of their Recovery.

Try smacking a level 2 mob 3 times with any attack that applies a stack size of 10 and has an attack speed less than 2 seconds (so you can get 3 in in 6s). When 6s rolls over, all 30'ish stacks will be gone where, as I understand it, 20'ish stacks should still remain.

Unless, of course that is how the system is supposed to be working and we simply had a communication error along the way.

Alright, I checked, double checked, trippled checked, checked with different weapons, check with different levels of stack, check with different types of stack...

This is definitely fully and well fixed. Kudos and thank you!

CEO, Goblinworks

I modified the Combat Guide based on Nightdrifter's feedback.

I added the following paragraph:

Effect Power and Buffs and Debuffs
Stack size and timer length for Buffs and Debuffs are also modified by the Effect Modifier (see above). The Effect Modifier is applied after the Hit Success Factor (as described in the previous paragraph).

And I noted in each Buff/Debuff description if it modified resistances.

For example, Afflicted now says:

Afflicted (Submission) [Stacks]: This is applied as a common Debuff by most poison and disease attacks. Deals [Stack Size] * .1% of max HP damage per round (e.g., 10% of max HP at 100 stacks). Applies a Reflex penalty equal to [Stack Size].

CEO, Goblinworks

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I have modified the Combat Guide to reflect my increased understanding of the timing of attacks and interrupts.

Here is the new section:

Attack Timing & Animations

When a character initiates an Attack Action, a number of processes are triggered. These take place during the total time of the attack. Currently, the in-game tool tips are displaying just the Cooldown time. The total attack time is the Cooldown time + Validation time. Total attack time is not currently displayed to the player. In this section we will use the full total attack time when we discuss the length of an attack.

Animation
By design, the animation should start as soon as the action is initiated and end as the total attack time expires.

We do not currently have a system that can alter the animation in mid-playback based on conditions during the period of the attack. So currently each attack animation plays identically for every iteration of that Attack Action regardless of what might happen during any discrete instance of that attack. Our plan is that if an attack fails Validation or is interrupted the animation should blend to some kind of “I have been interrupted” animation, but that technology has not been fully implemented yet.

Validation
The client and server require 300 milliseconds to determine if the action is “valid”. During this time the server examines the request made by the client to execute the action and verifies that the client’s assumptions about the game state are valid. This step is required to avoid client-side hacks and exploits. 300 milliseconds is enough time for the information to make the transit from client to server and for the server to perform the necessary validation of the game state with some allowance for lag and server congestion. If Validation fails the server tells the client and the client responds as able. If Validation is successful there is no notification to the client – the client doesn’t have to wait to be told the attack was valid before continuing to process the Attack Action.

If Validation fails there is no effect on the character’s Stamina. The Stamina bar does not change to reflect the cost of the action until after the Validation period has passed so there is a lag between initiating an attack and seeing the Stamina bar change of 300 milliseconds. If Validation fails the player is immediately free to attempt another attack (or other action).

Interrupt & Followthrough Phases
Assuming the attack is valid, the attack may then present a window during which it can be interrupted, and a period of time when animations are playing but the mechanical effects of the attack have been resolved.
Assuming the attack is 1.3 seconds or longer, it will consist of an Interrupt phase and a Followthrough phase.

Attacks that have speeds less than 1.3 seconds cannot be interrupted. These fast attacks only have a Followthrough phase.

To determine the lengths of each phase, begin by calculating the Followthrough length.

Followthrough Phase Length
The Followthrough Phase is at least 400 milliseconds, and may be longer. It is defined as 20% of the length of the attack, or 400 milliseconds, whichever is greater. In other words, it will be 400 milliseconds for any attack less than 2 seconds.

Interrupt Phase Length
The Interrupt Phase is equal to the length of the attack minus the Validation time and minus the Followthrough Phase length.

For example, an attack that displays a Cooldown time of 1.4 seconds is actually an attack with a 1.7 second total length. That attack will have 300 milliseconds of Validation, 1 second of Interrupt phase and 400 milliseconds of Followthrough phase.

The Sequence of Events
When you trigger an attack the client tells the server to process a Validation request and begins playing the Attack Action animation. After 300 milliseconds if the client has not been told that Validation failed, Stamina is adjusted and the Interrupt Phase (if any) begins. During the Interrupt phase if the character is hit by an effect that indicates that it Interrupts, or if the attacker and the target become separated by enough distance to be “out of range” of the attack, the attack is interrupted and cancelled. When the Interrupt Phase ends (or immediately after Validation if there is no Interrupt Phase), the mechanical effects of the attack are applied to the target. The Followthrough Phase begins and ends and then the animation ends.

Note: If you are using an attack with a total time of 1.3 seconds or longer that includes an Interrupt effect, you may find it very hard to time that action so that it actually interrupts your target. You have to deliver the attack such that the resolution moment happens within the target’s Interrupt Phase, and you’ll have to factor in your own Interrupt Phase length. Hitting targets with Interrupt effects using attacks with lengths less than 1.3 seconds is much easier.

Monster Attacks
Currently, Monsters (any AI opponent) have an advantage over the players. The Monsters don’t have a Validation phase in their melee attacks. The instant a Monster makes a melee attack, if it has no Interrupt Phase, the effects of that attack are applied to the target. In this sense the monsters are much “faster” than the player characters. This can create visual anomalies. The mechanical effects of a Monster fast attack happen first, then the animation of the attack plays. Under certain circumstances this can create the visual illusion that the character has been struck even though they never see a Monster make an attack. It also means that if you are running away from a Monster, you might see your character suddenly take damage and/or be impacted by an Effect, then see the monster stop moving and play its attack animation as you apparently run out of range.
These are all visual artifacts rather than traditional “bugs” with the game mechanics. In time we’ll obfuscate things in ways that will hide some of these nuts & bolts from the players and create the illusion that monster attacks are working like player attacks.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Validation
The client and server require 300 milliseconds to determine if the action is “valid”. During this time the server examines the request made by the client to execute the action and verifies that the client’s assumptions about the game state are valid. This step is required to avoid client-side hacks and exploits. 300 milliseconds is enough time for the information to make the transit from client to server and for the server to perform the necessary validation of the game state with some allowance for lag and server congestion. If Validation fails the server tells the client and the client responds as able. If Validation is successful there is no notification to the client – the client doesn’t...

This doesn't really impact anything, I'm just curious.

Is the time from client-server really part of the 300ms?

If Player A has a 200ms latency, and Player B has a 50ms latency, and they both send an attack action at 4:45.000, the server will execute both actions at 4:45.300. Or does Player A's action happen at 4:45.500, and player B's action happen at 4:45.350? In other words is the server subtracting the client's ping from the time until attack will execute.

CEO, Goblinworks

As I understand it, the time is 300 milliseconds regardless of network speed.

The client basically sends off a message that says "validate this!", waits 300ms, then continues. If it doesn't hear anything from the server it assumes all is well.

Goblin Squad Member

I realise this is a work in progress, but it could really do with a breakdown of the weapons. Some of it might be obvious, but I don't think heavy was a category in PnP Pathfinder, e.g. is a longsword heavy?

Goblin Squad Member

Doshi wrote:
I realise this is a work in progress, but it could really do with a breakdown of the weapons. Some of it might be obvious, but I don't think heavy was a category in PnP Pathfinder, e.g. is a longsword heavy?

As far as I can tell, the key difference between heavy and light melee weapons that the heavy weapons are martial weapons and the light weapons (dagger, short sword, rapier) are subterfuge weapons. The heavy weapon feats give Str attribute bonuses and the light weapons give Dex attribute bonuses.

But yes, it could be more clear - it confused me when I first started playing in Alpha, too.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

As I understand it, the time is 300 milliseconds regardless of network speed.

The client basically sends off a message that says "validate this!", waits 300ms, then continues. If it doesn't hear anything from the server it assumes all is well.

I am curious. I haven't validated this, but it wouldn't surprise me if my latency to the server is up near 300. How would things be handled if I make an invalid attack, but the return message from the server does not reach my client within the 300ms window?

It is easy for me to imagine that my client might fall out of sync - ie my stamina is spent, but the server rejects the attack, resulting in a difference between my server side stamina and my local stamina. (This assuming this case is completely unhandled, which I imagine it isn't).

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Kadere wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:

As I understand it, the time is 300 milliseconds regardless of network speed.

The client basically sends off a message that says "validate this!", waits 300ms, then continues. If it doesn't hear anything from the server it assumes all is well.

I am curious. I haven't validated this, but it wouldn't surprise me if my latency to the server is up near 300. How would things be handled if I make an invalid attack, but the return message from the server does not reach my client within the 300ms window?

It is easy for me to imagine that my client might fall out of sync - ie my stamina is spent, but the server rejects the attack, resulting in a difference between my server side stamina and my local stamina. (This assuming this case is completely unhandled, which I imagine it isn't).

My guess, from network failures, is that you see yourself execute the attack animation but notice no effects of any kind (including stamina costs.

The client doesn't need to keep track of stamina, since it can't be trusted to.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
The client doesn't need to keep track of stamina, since it can't be trusted to.

True, but I suspect the Client does keep track of Stamina to simplify display. Your Stamina display might show incorrectly for a while, but I expect it would get updated from the server at some point. Actually, I would half-expect the server to return the Stamina it expected the Character to have along with the other effects on the target, like how much damage was done.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I suspect that the server tells the client how much stamina the character has each heartbeat, and that is the only way the client knows that what stamina it has.

I will try to falsify this hypothesis and report shortly.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Procedure: Spam beneficial effects on myself until stamina is low, then force a disconnect by pulling the plug. Using Battle Rage, because it applies a stacking buff that I can see if it decays or not.

Expected behavior: I should see no stamina regeneration nor decay of the stacks of stuff I put on myself, and possibly other things that normally happen (sheathing weapon?).

Observed: Blue bar stops refilling on pulling the cable; Mind Blank is not visible, so a different buff was selected that does provide a visible indication; that indication remained until the client closed for being disconnected. Character remained "weapon out" until closed for disconnect.

CEO, Goblinworks

The client maintains its own version of reality, and its periodically sanity checked by the server. It can't affect anything other than itself so you can't manipulate the client into hitting the target for example - the server, not the client decides if a hit actually occurred and if damage should be applied.

You can do short range teleports to a distance the server thinks you could have run to since its last verification pf your position and we've seen people that appear to be exhibiting that behavior so I assume someone is already managing to spoof the server.

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