Yes, the GM can decide anything is a distraction or threat. If the GM does this for things such as climb checks, where take 10 would succeed, but a roll of 1 would fail.
The take 10 rule is to allow for the character to succeed at fairly routine tasks by taking 10 instead of potentially failing by rolling a 1 or other low number.
The example given for distraction or threat is combat. Anything other than combat is GM fiat. If the GM rules in a way that is overly hindering to a character, I would probably leave that game, as there is no reason barring combat for a character with no climb ranks to fail climbing a knotted rope (DC 5). Even if it is slippery (+5).
The take 10 rule is basically a "It's a usual task for me to do, so I can do it without even risking failure if I can focus on it".
Everyone agrees when it applies to things people in our world can do, but some DM and players have hard times with extraordinary characters levels of "usual task". A guy with +15 with a skill doesn't have the same "usual tasks" than the guy with +0.
Some DM have even harder times with characters that can auto-succeed checks with high modifiers.
All that matters in this case is whether there is a "distraction." The GM gets to determine that.
Actually, it's extremely poor form for the GM to arbitrarily rule about player character's mental states, just as it's extremely poor form for the GM to arbitrarily rule about the player character's decisions. If you said that you wanted to swing your sword at the orc, but I invoked Rule 0 and said that you charged the dragon and attempted to grapple it instead, you'd be justifiably angry. If I told you that you couldn't cast a fireball spell because 'you're out of spell components," you'd be justifiably angry. And in both cases, the justification is because I'm using Rule 0 to break the rules on which I relied when I created my character.
Telling me that my character is 'distracted' and therefore can't use his abilities falls into the same category.
While a GM can determine that anything is a "distraction" it would be considered bad form to use this as an excuse to preclude take 10 often.
In the time I've been playing, 10 years at this point, I can only recall one situation in which I wanted to take 10 and couldn't due to a reason other than combat. That situation was
That is a situation where it legimately made sense to me that I couldn't take 10. While there were plenty of regular activities where the GM would have liked it if we couldn't take 10, plenty of stuff related to climbing rigging, he could not justify it in a sensible way except this one case.
Telling me that my character is 'distracted' and therefore can't use his abilities falls into the same category.
No it doesn't. Throwing out straw man arguments about GM behavior and Rule 0 doesn't strengthen your argument, it weakens it.
That last several posters need to take a step back. I brought this up to expose the hypocrisy of thorin's position. He's attempting to revoke one dev "comment" with another dev "comment" but then conveniently ignoring his own position isn't based on RAW either.
My position is that both dev comments apply:
1. The task, itself, cannot be the source of the distraction;
2. Being forced to concentrate on a spell is a distraction for any and all skill attempts. Regardless of the spell or the skill being attempted.
Both of these statements were espoused by devs outside of the FAQ framework.
I agree that concentrating on a spell would be a distraction. With the exception of detect magic and a spellcraft check, because concentrating on detect magic for 3 rounds is what permits the spellcraft check in the first place.
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Claxon, our Skull&Shackles GM similarly ruled we couldn't take 10 to climb in rigging during a severe storm. That also makes sense to me.
Really, the default state of the game should be "you can take 10." The GM has to justify why that default state has changed, the player should not have to justify why it's established.
I agree with that Ryric, the default (outside of combat) should be assumed Take 10 works. The GM should justify why it doesn't if he isn't allowing it. Severe storm so you can't climb rigging is also a good reason.
Can't do it because there's a fishing ship on the horizon? Bad reason.
Telling me that my character is 'distracted' and therefore can't use his abilities falls into the same category.
No it doesn't. Throwing out straw man arguments about GM behavior and Rule 0 doesn't strengthen your argument, it weakens it.
That last several posters need to take a step back. I brought this up to expose the hypocrisy of thorin's position. He's attempting to revoke one dev "comment" with another dev "comment" but then conveniently ignoring his own position isn't based on RAW either.
My position is that both dev comments apply:
1. The task, itself, cannot be the source of the distraction;
2. Being forced to concentrate on a spell is a distraction for any and all skill attempts. Regardless of the spell or the skill being attempted.
Both of these statements were espoused by devs outside of the FAQ framework.
It depends. An internal distraction, such as fear of heights, is something that should be determined by the player. An external distraction, such as a swarm of bees around the player's head (or the above-mentioned storm whilst in rigging), should be determined by the GM.
It depends. An internal distraction, such as fear of heights, is something that should be determined by the player. An external distraction, such as a swarm of bees around the player's head (or the above-mentioned storm whilst in rigging), should be determined by the GM.The height can be a visual distraction. The howling wind, can be a distraction. The constant falling of dirt and pebbles from above, can be a distraction. Just like fans at a basketball game waving big foam fingers when someone is shooting free-throws. None of that requires the character be "afraid," nor does the GM need impose any mental deficiencies on the player.
A single fly or buzzing mosquito is within the GMs ability to rule as a distraction. If a GM wants you to prevent you from Taking 10 in almost any circumstance, they can easily whip up some natural circumstance which does it. Does that make the game more or less enjoyable? YMMV.
In a PFS game, a GM ruled that the shouting of an angry mob prevented the characters from Taking 10 on diplomacy checks. I didn't like it, but it was completely justified.
I disagree about the height being a distraction, since being afraid of heights is something for the player to decide. (And if he isn't afraid of heights, what exactly is left to distract him?)
Most of the rest of what you said seemed like a pretty fair assessment though.
. With the exception of detect magic and a spellcraft check, because concentrating on detect magic for 3 rounds is what permits the spellcraft check in the first place.Wrong. Detect Magic does not allow me to use Spellcraft "in the first place." I can use Spellcraft whenever I want. I can use Spellcraft in the first round to identify someone casting a spell. It just happens that after three rounds of concentration, I know enough about the aura's that spellcraft reveals more information. The distraction still applies. Nothing in the rules changes that. There's nothing magical happening between DM and Spellcraft after the third round, only the information available to the character.
If I were using a spell called Telescope and after three rounds of concentration (which I must continue to maintain the spell), far away objects came into focus, I would still be distracted by concentrating on the spell and would not get to Take 10 on Perception rolls. Why? Because my focus is on maintaining the spell. Spellcraft does not allow you to forgo the concentration requirement on Detect Magic. As such, you are distracted in plain language. Ruling otherwise is simply house-ruling. Which you are free to do.
Ok, found the disconnect.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura emanates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).
Without casting detect magic, you cannot use spellcraft to identify the magic properties of an item. That is the use of spellcraft specifically that I am talking about.
Because making the spellcraft check is called out in the detect magic spell, and it is because of the spell that you are allowed to make it, I do not think that having concentrated on the spell through round 3 to be allowed to make the check should cause you to be distracted for that check.
Yes, I know you can also use identify to spellcraft magic items. It doesn't require concentration, but still takes 3 rounds and gives you a +10 already.
I do agree that concentrating on any spell would be a distraction to identifying someone casting a spell (though, that would also probably initiate combat, so that would already be a distraction). Likewise, your telescope spell would preclude taking 10 on perception while concentrating on it, unless specifically the telescope spell called out, "after 3 rounds of concentration make a perception check with blah blah blah effects" at which point I would say making the perception check is PART of using the spell, and the spell doesn't distract from using itself.
How would a GM justify height as a distraction without overly presuming something about the PC's state of mind?
Because making the spellcraft check is called out in the detect magic spell, and it is because of the spell that you are allowed to make it, I do not think that having concentrated on the spell through round 3 to be allowed to make the check should cause you to be distracted for that check.And why do you think that? Where does it say in the rules that if you can do something extra in conjunction with a spell you are concentrating on...then suddenly the fact that you're concentrating on something else is no longer relevant?
Where does it say in the rules that spending a standard action a turn to concentrate on a spell counts as a distraction or threat to the point that you cannot take 10 on a skill check?
As far as concentration checks go, being injured, taking damage, being affected by spells, being grappled/pinned, vigorous or violent motion, wind/rain/sleet/hail/debris, weather, or entangled can break concentration. Using a skill can't. Concentration is not stated to be distracting in the rules, and doesn't cause you to take any penalties for doing so. So, why do you consider concentrating on a spell to be distracting?
At some point, the GM gets to treat you like an average person and they get to decide how an average person would be affected. Sorry, but in real life, the average person is going to be distracted at high altitudes. Now, if they looked up and not down or focused on the the climb, they can probably ignore the dizzying effect that altitude has.
But this game is all about non average people in a different world. I think I've heard that the best of us humans can reach about a lv5-lv6 fighter. So I don't think it's fair to say "but the average person would be dizzy" or anything related to us average people.
Where does it say in the rules that spending a standard action a turn to concentrate on a spell counts as a distraction or threat to the point that you cannot take 10 on a skill check?: the ability to give your attention or thought to a single object or activity : the ability to concentrateThe very definition of what it means to concentrate mandates that I am distracted from doing any other task. There doesn't need to be an explicit rule that explains that, just like there is no rule that explains what it means to "breathe."
As far as concentration checks go, being injured, taking damage, being affected by spells, being grappled/pinned, vigorous or violent motion, wind/rain/sleet/hail/debris, weather, or entangled can break concentration. Using a skill can't.Irrelevant. We aren't talking about breaking your concentration. On the contrary, you are not breaking your concentration, which is exactly why you are distracted from doing anything else. Because you are focused on a single activity to the exclusion of all others. By definition.
dis·tract·ed adjective
: unable to think about or pay attention to something : unable to concentrate
Sorry, but the word concentrate has a specific game meaning. Which is to spend a standard action each round to maintain it, and there is a possibility of concentration checks required if the circumstances come up.
Lets look at spellcraft.
Action: Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors. Learning a spell from a spellbook takes 1 hour per level of the spell (0-level spells take 30 minutes). Preparing a spell from a borrowed spellbook does not add any time to your spell preparation. Making a Spellcraft check to craft a magic item is made as part of the creation process. Attempting to ascertain the properties of a magic item takes 3 rounds per item to be identified and you must be able to thoroughly examine the object.
It takes 3 rounds of using spellcraft too. You are concentrating on using spellcraft to identify the item, which takes 3 rounds of detect magic and using spellcraft before you get to roll, but you are thoroughly examining the object for the entire 3 rounds.
Except that many PC's have scores below the average person. But we'll just sweep that aside.This game is about rules that create a game experience. If you're in this thread, then on some level, you believe adherence to the rules is important to the game experience.
Of course, you can always apply the rules arbitrarily.
haha wow. So according to my understanding average is an 8. Also so I have an int of 7, everything else is way higher, so yes I'm slightly dumber than an average pathfinder character, but that doesn't necessarily mean I get distracted easier, not that on average I'm well above average.
And yes I believe in adherence to the rules. I didn't say anything that was against any rule. I just said that per the rules, pathfinder characters aren't limited the same way that us Earth humans are. So while an average Earth human can't consistently survive a huge falls. A lv 5 fighter could jump off an 80ft cliff every day he's at full health and not have to worry about dying. I could do that, and be completely mended in a few days. While us Earthly humans take months to heal broken bones. Pathfinder characters usually have pretty easy access to healing magic. So they could live lives more reckless because healing is pretty easy to get. Anyone with the right feats(crane) could negate an attack from a gargantuan dragon. So I feel that it's not a good argument in the rules to say that characters can't do something because of how us Earth humans react to such situations.
Also I didn't even suggest that one could or couldn't use this for something, just that it's not a good stance to relate characters to normal Earth humans.
How would a GM justify height as a distraction without overly presuming something about the PC's state of mind?How would I justify a howling wind is a distraction? How about intense cold/heat as a distraction?
Extreme sensory input (or extreme lack of sensory input) that forces the mind to devote a significant portion of its attention to that input. That is the basis of all of the above, and of every published instance of distraction I can think of (swarms, pain, the various things that disrupt concentration, etc.). You don't have to assume anything about the PC's mental or emotional state for this other than that the PC's brain functions more or less like every healthy human brain. "Height" induces no such reaction unless fear is involved.
How do I know combat is a distraction?
Because the rules specifically say that it is.
Fine, if you want to interpret "state of mind" in such a manner as to render it meaningless. But I think you know what I mean, so please answer the question instead of nitpicking--or don't, if you'd rather not, but no sense wasting both of our times.
At some point, the GM gets to treat you like an average person and they get to decide how an average person would be affected. Sorry, but in real life, the average person is going to be distracted at high altitudes.
No, they aren't. People generally only get distracted at high altitudes if they are afraid, and that's generally limited to imminent danger (for most folks) or pretty much any time they notice that they're high up (for acrophobics). Acrophobia is not vanishingly rare as far as phobias go--it took me days to fully recover from our last drive through Mount Rainier National Park--but it is not exactly common either. It is certainly not something the GM ought to simply assume about a PC unless the player doesn't mind giving up the freedom to decide her character's thoughts and emotions.
Edit: By the by, I agree with your assessment of detect magic & Spellcraft, though I hadn't really thought about it until this thread.
No, the game doesn't have a separate meaning for concentrate. You're just making stuff up.
Sorry, but the word concentrate has a specific game meaning. Which is to spend a standard action each round to maintain it, and there is a possibility of concentration checks required if the circumstances come up.
No, i'm not.
Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.
You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating.
That is what Duration: Concentration means. It does not say you are distracted, merely that doing things that can break concentration during spellcasting can also break your concentration while concentrating to maintain a spell. Concentration, as the standard action is not listed as being a distraction for take 10, like combat is. Therefore, it is not a distraction.
Whether the spell requries a Standard Action or a Free action is also irrelevant. Let's look at DM in the PRD
DETECT MAGIC
School divination; Level bard 0, cleric 0, druid 0, sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Component: V, S
Range 60 ft.
Area cone-shaped emanation
Duration concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noEmphasis mine. Are you concentrating on DM to maintain it? Yes? Then by definition, you are distracted from performing any other skill. Is there something in the Spellcraft definition that says you are not distracted when using DM and Spellcraft together?
No.
Does spending a standard action per round make you distracted? Nothing says it does. Does it make sense that concentrating on studying the thing you are identifying distracts you from identifying it? No.
It takes 3 rounds of using spellcraft too. You are concentrating on using spellcraft to identify the item, which takes 3 rounds of detect magic and using spellcraft before you get to roll, but you are thoroughly examining the object for the entire 3 rounds.Nowhere does it say you have to concentrate to use Spellcraft. No skill requires concentration to use.
There's nothing more for me to add on this topic. You're free to interpret the rules in any manner you want, so long as you aren't playing PFS, because the rules are clear and unambiguous.
Making a Spellcraft check to craft a magic item is made as part of the creation process. Attempting to ascertain the properties of a magic item takes 3 rounds per item to be identified and you must be able to thoroughly examine the object.
Identify the properties of a magic item using detect magic 15 + item's caster level
Spellcraft to identify an object requires detect magic to use. It also requires a thorough examination. If detect magic is too distracting to take 10, then it should also be too distracting for a thorough examination. And then you could not identify items with detect magic ever.
GM determination of "distraction" is ambiguous. In the example above, unless the adventure path states explicitly that take 10 on the climb check is prohibited because of the actions going on, preventing it is entirely GM fiat and will vary table to table even in PFS. Though, its is a bad example as the only RAW distraction or threat listed is combat.