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Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler's flurry. A brawler with natural weapons can't use such weapons as part of brawler's flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler's flurry attacks.
At 8th level, the brawler gains use of the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler's flurry. At 15th level, she gains use of the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler's flurry.
Quick question: with Brawler's Flurry, can I take Two-Weapon Feint? Do I count as having Two-Weapon Fighting?
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No. When you use that ability, the penalties for two-weapon fighting are reduced as though you had the feat. In order to take Two-Weapon Feint, you must actually have the feat itself.
Quick question: with Brawler's Flurry, can I take Two-Weapon Feint? Do I count as having Two-Weapon Fighting?
The OP's quote says that the brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when making a brawler's flurry.
No. When you use that ability, the penalties for two-weapon fighting are reduced as though you had the feat. In order to take Two-Weapon Feint, you must actually have the feat itself.
Quick question: with Brawler's Flurry, can I take Two-Weapon Feint? Do I count as having Two-Weapon Fighting?
Incorrect. Brawler's Flurry actually grants the Feats, unlike Flurry of Blows.
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He can use it to fulfill the prerequisites, but only during Brawler's Flurry (meaning when not Flurrying he can't use the Feats).
There is rules precedent for this, having Feats you can only qualify for part of the time (such as Improved Natural Attack for one of the Sorcerer Bloodlines that gives Claws).
Druids can take ranks in fly even though they do not always fly. So can wizards.
Rage can qualify you for power attack.
"Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables."Please point out a similar exception that allows you to take a feat without already having the prerequisites and have it turn on when an ability temporarily grants you the prerequisites you were missing.
It's actually right there in what you quoted, though not as elaborated on as it has been in forum dev posts (which I'm sure someone else can find more easily than I, though considering how I recall them flip-flopping back and forth on multiple occasions I'd take any posted for either side with far too much salt to taste).
"A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables."
This works two ways. The first, you qualify for a Feat, and then suddenly lose the ability to qualify for it. You can no longer use that Feat, but do not lose it. A good example of this is having your Strength drained to 12, causing you to lose access to Power Attack.
The implication here is that it works in reverse as well: You can qualify for a Feat if you have some way to temporarily gain the prerequisite for it, but can only use it while that ability is active. Another simple example, a Barbarian with 10 Str who can only Power Attack while Raging.
A more common scenario is items that raise your base stats.
In this specific scenario, the Brawler has Two-Weapon Fighting when using Brawler's Flurry. He qualifies for Feats with Two-Weapon Fighting as a prerequisite (though doesn't necessarily meet other prerequsiites, like needing Dex 15). He may take that Feat.
However, he loses the Feat prerequisites when not using Brawler's Flurry, so cannot access them when not Flurrying.
It doesn't contradict the text you bolded in the slightest, because the Brawler DOES have the prerequisites that he MUST HAVE in order to select the Feat. He just only has them sometimes.
I'm not sure what needs addressed. The class clearly stated that you have the feats while using brawler's flurry. The rules quote says you have to have the prerequisites AND brawler's flurry says you have them. I see nothing unclear.
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The issue is that a shield champion gains bonus feats that require 2 weapon fighting. Am I forced to take 2 weapon fighting? Or do the feats work as normal? Or can I only benefit from the feats while a flurry?
You can only benefit from the feats while flurrying, unless you choose to take Two-Weapon Fighting as a feat.
The issue is that a shield champion gains bonus feats that require 2 weapon fighting. Am I forced to take 2 weapon fighting? Or do the feats work as normal? Or can I only benefit from the feats while a flurry?You can only benefit from the feats while flurrying, unless you choose to take Two-Weapon Fighting as a feat.
Yep, it's literally self explanatory if you read Brawler's Flurry. When you use it, you gain the feat(s). And feats that you gain that have them as prerequisites only work while use are using Brawler's Flurry since IT grants the feats.
Of course you could always do as Starglim said and take the feat if you wish to have access to it while not using Brawler's Flurry.
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And once again, we come up against the double standard applied between casters and martial characters.
People questioning whether a class, that explicitly gains a feat while performing an ability they could do infinity times/per day, should qualify for training further feats in the chain.
While we are told we have to handwave the feat and prestige class prerequisites, for any race that is able to manifest a spell-like ability once per day.
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Brawler goes to gym.
Brawler: "I'd like to learn your technique, for how to defend myself better when fighting."
Trainer: "I can teach it, but how good are you, currently? Can you fight with all four limbs?"
Brawler: "All four limbs, and my headbutt, plus I can probably choke someone with my ass-cheeks, if it got close-up and dirty."
Trainer: "Well, then, lady. Looks like you got yourself a lesson. Get in the ring."
Brawler performs several hours of awesome flurrying, under the instruction of trainer.
Learns Two Weapon Defense.
Brawler: "Thanks for the lesson. I'll recommend you to the rest of my team."
Trainer: "No; thank you. That was one of the best sparring matches I've had in a long time. You can come again, anytime."
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Tiefling goes to Magic School.
Tiefling: "I'd like to apply for a scholarship, please."
Magic School Bursar: "Okay. Let's see what you can do."
Tiefling pulls his finger, farts a cloud of darkness.
Bursar: "Hmmm. Well that's certainly a good parlor trick. But so what? Any tiefling can do that. What else can you do?"
Tiefling: "Errr...sorry. That's all I've got."
How it should play out:
Bursar: "Piss off, and stop wasting my time."
How Paizo writers tell us it plays out:
Bursar: "Oh, my goodness! He created a cloud of darkness! No further proof is needed! You are not just a trained arcane caster, but a veritable Archmage in disguise! What we have here, is the second coming of Nethys himself! Here, have my robes! Take the keys to my office! Please accept a lifetime tenure to our college!"
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And you don't see the madness of that?
I just think thats a really bizzare way for it to operate and doesn't sound like as intended. Either we have a feat or we don't. It shouldn't be conditional.
It needs to be clarifed.
Madness? Sorry, it makes total sense. Does Crusader's Flurry make sense to you? It only works when a monk flurries. How about Feinting Flurry? There are already MANY abilities/items that only work part of the time and the game has been rolling along just fine.
You're talking like conditional abilities are brand new. Martial Flexibility and Paragon Surge are ALL about temporary feats. It's NOTHING new. Fighters can even swap out feats and anyone can retrain. They don't have to be permanent fixtures of the character.
You've obviously not actually looked at the shield champion. Go take a look and see exactly how essential the two-weapon fighting is to them. Seriously.
Ok I ACTUALLY looked at it before but I figured I'd humor you and look again. I'm STILL not seeing an issue. Seriously. Super seriously even.
May I suggest that instead of insulting people by saying that they just haven't read the material that you instead point out what issue you think there is and explain why. If you think something isn't working that's "essential", why not ACTUALLY point it out?
Not really.
All it really comes down to is that the Brawler is worse at protecting himself with his shield, and with attacking with it when he's not using his special Brawling style.
Again, you're not listening.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what we're saying. We listened, we just don't agree with you.
I'm talking about a feat that you get as a bonus feat for the archtype that doesn't even operate except in specific circumstances, and which you don't even meet the perquisites for.
"specific circumstances" that can happen at will every round? Not seeing the issue. And a feat you can always use Martial Flexibility to pick up if you REALLY need to use the feat without the flurry.
Shield master is a shield champion bonus feat. But you can't use it unless you yourself use a feat to pick up shield slam. Neither of which work at all unless you're flurrying apparently.
And? Martial Flexibility allows you to use Shield Master even if you don't take the shield slam feat as a normal feat. Issue = 0%.
Do you still really not see the issue here?
Nope. Not a single issue at all. None. Zero. Nada. You seem to be the one not listening to us.
Name one other archtype or class that gains bonus feats that they can't even use unless they take other feats. In this case im referring the need to take shield slam, which im not even sure I can.
Master of many styles. You MUST take elemental fist and the base style feats if the bonus feat requires them. As I've said before, this ISN'T new ground we're covering here. Not even close.
Honestly there is a huge issue. No class feature should dictate you to take feats to be able to receive another feat. The MoMS has other non Elemental Fist options to pick. The Shield Champion depends on Shield Master pretty dang hard.
I'd put my money on errata.
Again, you're not listening. I'm talking about a feat that you get as a bonus feat for the archtype that doesn't even operate except in specific circumstances, and which you don't even meet the perquisites for.
Shield master is a shield champion bonus feat. But you can't use it unless you yourself use a feat to pick up shield slam. Neither of which work at all unless you're flurrying apparently.
Do you still really not see the issue here?
Name one other archtype or class that gains bonus feats that they can't even use unless they take other feats. In this case im referring the need to take shield slam, which im not even sure I can.
I'm not seeing why "No other archetype or class requires this" is equal to "This doesn't work that way" especially when the way it's worded ("He must meet all the prerequisites of this Feat before taking it") tells us that yes, it 100% was intended to work that way.
And yes, you can take Shield Slam. You have the Feat prerequisites when Flurrying. You can use it, when Flurrying. You can't use it when not Flurrying (and by extension, you can't use Shield Master either) . That's all there is to it.
It would have been a hell of a lot cleaner wording, and much simpler to adjudicate had it simply said "The Brawler gains the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat as a Bonus Feat, but only when using Close weapons or weapons with the Monk special quality", granted, but honestly that's the least of the problems with this book. At least it functions.
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Oh my, you know what really isn't fair? That a brawler has to do a flurry to count as having two-weapon fighting. My gosh, why give us a feat if we can only use it part of the time. They should just remove it since we only have access to it if we're using a flurry. Like, what if I want to two weapon fight without using a flurry? Nope, can't do that since I only have the feat while using a flurry.
Also how dare they offer bloodline feats for a Sorcerer that they have to meet the prereqs for. Like really, Abyssal Bloodline offering augment summoning, but the sorcerer has to take spell focus with one of their normal feats. And who knows how many other feats are like this from their other bloodlines. And don't get me started on the arcana. Some of them only come up so often, really? A whole arcana boosting my spells in the dark, whelp that's only use-able a part of each day. Better change those.
Plenty of bloodrager bloodline's bonus feats need prereqs too. most have those as options but still, I have to use one of my feats to qualify for this feat?
Also as a barbarian I can only use rage powers while in a rage. Do you realize how limited that is? I can only grow claws rounds per day. ROUNDS PER DAY!!! One of my best class features and I can only gain access to them rounds per day.
OH and spellcasters. As an wizard, I can only cast so many spells per day. LV1, it's like what, 4 maybe 5 spells a day, and then I'm done. If I used them every round like a rage I'd run out before the rager did. The admixture school, can't change the type if I'm not casting a spell. Better change that too, since it's kinda a big deal for them.
Honestly there is a huge issue. No class feature should dictate you to take feats to be able to receive another feat. The MoMS has other non Elemental Fist options to pick. The Shield Champion depends on Shield Master pretty dang hard.
I'd put my money on errata.
I'm missing the "The Shield Champion depends on Shield Master pretty dang hard." What part?
No penalties with a shield while you are wielding another weapon? That's what, a -2 you got rid of? Nothing great.
"shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus"? It's nice but nothing's stopping you from enchanting your shield as a weapon too. In fact, since you only gain the feat at 11th, you most likely would have done that anyway. Still not seeing it's needing it "dang hard".
Please explain what the "huge issue" is because neither you or Rushley son of Halum has actually explained WHY you think it's such a big issue. It looks like a nice extra if you want to spend the extra feat.
Also look at Greater Shield Focus has the exact wording about needing prerequisites. It doesn't seem like an error IMO.
They lose the AC bonus from the brawler feature because they use a shield and depend on wearing light armor, so I'm gonna say yeah, they need Shield Master.
And the fighter gets 10 bonus feats and they are still crap, amount of feats gained does not equal power.
They lose the AC bonus from the brawler feature because they use a shield and depend on wearing light armor, so I'm gonna say yeah, they need Shield Master.
Improved Shield Bash lets you keep your AC not Shield Master... How is Shield Master doing ANYTHING for your AC?
And the fighter gets 10 bonus feats and they are still crap, amount of feats gained does not equal power.
Then an extra feat needing prerequisites isn't an issue. Problem solved.
They lose the AC bonus from the brawler feature because they use a shield and depend on wearing light armor, so I'm gonna say yeah, they need Shield Master.
And the fighter gets 10 bonus feats and they are still crap, amount of feats gained does not equal power.
Actually just a good example that the class needs work and probably shouldn't be analyzed too hard. They don't swap AC Bonus for anything, but are given a shield which, if they actually use it, cancels out a class ability. Awkward? Super. Intended? Who knows.
Seems like they should've replaced the class feature, or included a sentence saying it still works. Similar issue, the picaroon swashbuckler archetype asks you to dual wield, which would cancel out your ability to use Precise Strike, yet the archetype makes no mention of allowing it and doesn't replace it. See also: the two cavalier archetypes that expect you to use a ranged weapon, yet don't alter challenge to work with ranged weapons.
They can still use their AC Bonus. It comes in handy if you have foes ready attacks for when you throw your shield and you don't have it for defense. So I don't find it super awkward. It may be narrow niche, but it's got a use.
The problem here is that Rushley son of Halum came into a thread only tangentially related to his issue (Shield Master bonus feat for Shield Champion).
He has a valid concern, I agree it's kind of a silly way to gain a "bonus", but the temporary access of TWF, is not the problem, and so FAQing the OP won't address his concern really.
The shield champion archetype should have it's own thread, or maybe add to the thread on ACG issues (if it's not there already).
Personally, I'd just give them Improved Shield Bash as a bonus feat at 3rd, Shield Slam at 7th, and Shield Master while flurry at 11th. No more confusion or "not really a bonus" bonus, that doesn't conform to the precedents set by the existing dozen or so classes and archetypes that grant bonus feats.
Honestly if Paizo can't manage their resources well enough to prevent these problems or start addressing them then maybe they need to seriously rethink a few of their business practices. Clearly what they're doing right now just isn't working.
Or maybe Paizo just doesn't think it is that much of an issue….. Just because they don't respond to every "I think this is broken, therefor Paizo sucks" thread doesn't mean they haven't seen the thread or given it a few brief moments thought before ignoring it.
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I agree that this is unintuitive. First, that you need to qualify before "selecting" a feat you're given without option. Second, automatically receiving a bonus feat that you may not qualify for. It's one thing to select permanent feats that build off temporary feats on your own initiative, but to be handed a high tier feat and have to work backwards is odd. I'd have rather seen them offer any feat in the chain at that level, or have them rolled into brawler's flurry, or just give it to you without meeting the prerequisites.
Still, I don't think that's a problem with martial versatility or brawler's flurry. I think it's a problem with the archetype overcomplicating things.
I'm not a fan of overly-rigid class abilities or bonus feats, either.
Far better to give the class a list of bonus feats they can treat as a buffet, so they decide whether a particular style is worth it for fulfilling the mental image in their head.Or being worded like Evasion, "If the character already has X from another source, he gains Improved X instead."
This helps reduce the possibility of an inexperienced player forgetting to purchase prerequisites, or thinking the bonus feats ignore prereqs, like the Ranger Combat Styles.
It also makes classes more synergistic with multiclassing or prestige classing, if it means a level isn't wasted, gaining a feat or ability the PC already has.
None of the above means the Brawler needs a rewrite, since it works exactly as intended, the way it's currently written.
It's just my preference, to see more flexible choices offered.
Honestly if Paizo can't manage their resources well enough to prevent these problems or start addressing them then maybe they need to seriously rethink a few of their business practices. Clearly what they're doing right now just isn't working.Or maybe Paizo just doesn't think it is that much of an issue….. Just because they don't respond to every "I think this is broken, therefor Paizo sucks" thread doesn't mean they haven't seen the thread or given it a few brief moments thought before ignoring it.
If they were seriously ignoring the thread that lists every single one of their mistakes in that book you could rest assured they'd never get another g+$ d#%n red cent from me.
Thankfully they don't seem to be that shortsighted.