Temporary Negative Levels?

[Lifat]

These are the monster energy drain abilities:

Universal Monster Rule:

Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent's vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature's description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it bestows twice the listed number of negative levels. Unless otherwise specified in the creature's description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature's racial HD + draining creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

Format: energy drain (2 levels, DC 18); Location: Special Attacks and individual attacks.

Bolding is mine and clearly shows that monster attacks become permanent after 24 hours (unless specified under the specific monster)

Energy Drain spell:

This spell functions like enervation, except that the creature struck gains 2d4 temporary negative levels. Twenty-four hours after gaining them, the subject must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = energy drain spell's save DC) for each negative level. If the save succeeds, that negative level is removed. If it fails, that negative level becomes permanent.

An undead creature struck by the ray gains 2d4 × 5 temporary hit points for 1 hour.

Bolding is mine and clearly shows that the negative levels from the spell become permanent after 24 hours.

Enervation spell:

You point your finger and fire a black ray of negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit. If you hit, the subject gains 1d4 temporary negative levels (see Special Abilities). Negative levels stack.

Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15 hours). Usually, negative levels have a chance of becoming permanent, but the negative levels from enervation don't last long enough to do so.

An undead creature struck by the ray gains 1d4 × 5 temporary hit points for 1 hour.

Bolding is mine and heavily indicates the way it works normally.

Spoiler:

A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.

This is taken directly from the PRD glossary under Energy Drain and negative levels.
Now I do think that it is pretty clear how these things work by RAW. But that last spoiler sentence doesn't really make sense to me... Because when does it ever happen? Can you name a single thing that grants temporary negative levels that last for days?
That is the only sentence that introduces a minimal doubt about how it is supposed to be run.
I'd love some kind of clarification on this.
My hope is that the text for the monster ability energy drain was somehow messed up and that they weren't supposed to become permanent.

[wraithstrike]

Those monsters have always used permanent energy drain but with restoration and greater restoration you can still remove them. IIRC death ward blocks them also. As to the spoiler I cant think of anything right now.

[SilveryDread]

...just a thought in the early hours, so;
Temporary Negative Levels remain in place for an unknown (but effectively unlimited) duration until removed by a spell such as Restoration or the affected creature succeeds at a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature's racial HD + draining creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. A seperate save is required for each negative level. A failed Fortitude save may be retried after twenty four hours have elapsed.

Thats my version as it stands...

[CrimsonVixen]

Enervation is written like that, as if there were some way of making it last more than 24 hours instead of the 15 hour cap, they would get the save or turn permanent affect like its big-brother Energy Drain.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qade?FAQSuggested-Errata-Negative-Levels-and

It appears to be a loophole or holdover from the early days of the game and changing the 3.5e negative levels to the current temporary/permanent.

The Ravener template and Negative Energy plane grant temporary negative levels that do not have a chance of becoming permanent, granting a new save every 24 hours.

Looking at various effects, the default general rule is that temporary negative levels are granted a save every 24 hours and removable enmasse with a restoration. Permanent negative levels have no saves, and require individual restorations to remove.

The RAW say that temporary negative levels default to check every 24 hours until removed, just there are very few abilities that do not apply temporary negative levels without the risk of turning permanent.

[eyelessgame]

I feel like the question that this thread is about didn't exactly get answered and I'm mostly wondering if everyone just came to the conclusion I did, that there's a misleading rule that always winds up superseded and never applies.

Here is the general negative level rule, from above, with two sections bolded that are the focus of the question I don't think was answered yet.

Negative levels, PFRPG and SRD:

A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.

----

I know the specific overrides the general, so the universal monster rule supersedes the default negative level rule.

Universal monster rule:

If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the draining creature’s racial HD + the draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

----

The universal monster rules are that (a) you don't get an initial saving throw to avoid the negative level; it's just like a stat drain, affecting the target on (typically) a hit or touch, so thre's nothing for the default rule's "new saving throw" to be "the same as"; (b) you only get one chance to avoid it becoming a "permanent" negative level, 24 hours later, if the effect is caused by any monster attack.

My question - and I suspect the OP's question - is if there are any conditions at all under which the default - a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day - actually holds?

It doesn't hold under either enervation or energy drain, the other two obvious ways to get a temporary negative level.

Is there any circumstance under which a character receives a temporary negative level, rolls a fortitude save after 24 hours to remove it, and if that fails, gets another fortitude save another 24 hours after that to remove it, and so on until removed? That is the "default" behavior of negative levels, but nothing seems to follow this "default" rule.

The additional thing here that I've noticed - playing in an urban campaign - is that the decision of whether to wait 24 hours after enduring an energy drain is an almost strictly economic/mathematical one. For characters under 7th level who need to have a cleric cast the spell for them, the spell costs (7x4x10)+100=380 gold to cast if you cast it before the 24 hours are up, but 1280 gold (1000 instead of 100 material component) to cast the spell after 24 hours. And that this means that you're better off waiting until after 24 hours are up if, and only if, you have a 70% or better chance of removing the level on your own with a Fortitude save (that is, if you would remove the negative level by rolling a 7 or better, make the roll; otherwise, get it taken care of without trying to make the save.)

(Most active players probably have moved on to 2nd ed - I will, one day, but not yet - so there might not be much interest in this now, but it's ... well, the system is not without its oddities; did I miss anything?

[eyelessgame]

I think I've answered my own question.

Searching the Bestiary I find other abilities that inflict negative levels but are not called Energy Drain - for example, a nabasu's Death-Stealing Gaze, which has a saving throw to avoid initially.

So - the nabasu's gaze produces a negative level that is guaranteed to eventually go away on its own, while a succubus' kiss - being called Energy Drain, gets only one save, a day later.

[Sandslice]

So the rule about "one save per day" only applies if you somehow have an effect that:

1. Bestows a temporary negative level;
2. That does not become a permanent level on the first failed save.

Here are some examples, mostly from Horror Adventures:

- Corruption of vampirism, Life Drain gift. Your slam attack explicitly bestows a temporary negative level as a crit proc. This does not appear to be capable of going permanent.

- Bleaching psychics: The 13th level ability is an emanation that allows an initial save to avoid, bestowing one temporary negative level (or two at L17) on failure. This does not say that the level can become permanent.

- Consume essence: This is a combat feat for certain evil creatures with Swallow Whole; it causes your stomach acid to bestow temporary negative levels (and to disintegrate the victims if they die from negative levels.)
(Contrast Deadhand Master, a style feat from the same source, that explicitly DOES allow the negative levels to become permanent.)

(RotR) - Runeplated (Gluttony) constructs can punch to bestow temporary negative levels (with initial Fort saves to negate.)