I tried my hand at fixing the fighter, though what I ended up with still left me a little.. wanting.
The problem, I found, was that it boiled down to an issue with core mechanics; namely Feats and Skills.
The game has a lot of level-based assumptions, and the problem I've found is that Feats and Skills are mostly great at the lower levels, but then drop off quickly once higher level requirements kick in. Very few feats actually address high level content requirements, and that few that do are way higher level than when the problem is introduced or have obscene requirements.
Skills simply suffer from the "my bonus goes up, but I don't really get 'better' than I did at 8th level" issue, in that the functionality stagnates completely.
With feats, characters don't get any more feats per level than they did at core, but their selection of feats (if I remember right) has quintupled (something like 100 core, 500 overall with the additional books). A lot of these feats are introduced to address higher level game expectations, so many feel necessary, but you are stuck building up to them, tree upon tree, such that your range of abilities suffers.
Spells have similar expansions, but don't suffer nearly the same problems, because prepared casters can add in spells on a nap, and all casters can simply use scrolls, wands or other means (rings or pages of spell knowledge, etc). It's far more flexible.
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My thoughts are to re-introduce the 3.5 splatbook mechanic of Skill Tricks to add in higher level based functionality for skills.
For Feats, I felt that consolidating feats into automatic functions (like making Power Attack a combat action, rather than a feat), and making feats primarily scaling in effect.
Yes, this would mean benefits for most classes. This is intentional. I want most classes to enjoy their feats and skills better.
However, to make the "Master of Feats" class (Fighter) and "Master of Skills" class (Rogue) still valid, I would change or add to their class features to make it so...
Multiple issues here, I'm with you.
Lack of preparation: The standard fighter has no ability to change his utility level depending on the job at hand. This is also an issue for the barbarian and the rogue.
a 'Feat Pool' that can be changed for the long term during morning exercises, and in the short term like the brawler does, is a decent way of addressing both the preparation before hand and the 'I need it now' requirements of life. However, this also opens up the can of worms of what feats exactly he should have access to on the spur of the moment.
Skill Ranks are a sore point with me. Ranks should represent knowledge and in-depth understanding of a skill. Everything else is a just a bonus to the check. Skill Ranks should determine what you can and cannot do, like milestones on a journey. Big bonuses then help you do those things better.
For instance, you could make up a chart that says you need 3 ranks in armor or weapon smithing to work alchemical silver or cold iron, 5 ranks to work Mithral, and 8 ranks to work adamantine. You simply don't understand how to work those metals until you have the ranks. Once you understand, you can start stacking on bonuses to work them FASTER...but you can't have the silliness of a low level guy with a +Competence item doing things someone higher level can't do.
In other words, target DC's are only half the job of skills. Working cold iron/silver could add +5 to the target DC for something, Mithral +8, and adamantine +10, for instance. That serves double duty as requiring a devoted smith to forge exotic objects, and high enough level to both understand what he's doing, and being able enough to do it. You give skill points meaning and value.
Skill tricks are another excuse for low-powered feats. You're just stacking more feats on the board with different requirements. It's another level of feats with a different name, is all. MOAR FEATS!
But that would take a skill rewrite. And maybe feats that got better as you pumped skill points in them, i.e. bought higher proficiency.
Which would be great for a Rogue build, not so much for the fighter.
==Aelryinth
Proposed feat flexibility for the fighter: Resolve - Versatility
1) The fighter gets a bonus combat or training feat every time his Resolve (Bravery) improves (ergo, 1-5 feats, starting at level 3). This is not a Technique (higher order feat).
2)The Fighter adds a number of combat or training feats equal to his Intelligence (min +1) + Expertise bonus in addition to this feat as a Feat Pool. At the beginning of his day, as part of his hour-long conditioning regimen, he may swap any or all of his active Versatile feats with those in his Feat Pool. They remain chosen and 'active' until switched out again.
3) He may substitute any training or combat feat from the Core Rules or his Feat Pool for any or all of his Versatile feats as an immediate action (Inspiration). The duration of this swap is 1 minute/Resolve bonus. He may do this a number of times a day equal to his Resolve bonus.
4) He may add more feats to his Feat Pool. He can spend a skill point to add a feat, spend a favored class bonus point, or spend a General Feat (which adds a number to his Pool equal to his Resolve bonus) once.
Points addressed:
a)Rewards a high Int score fighter, but is not a requirement. Expertise gets showing again.
b) Lets a character plan for the day and customize. Essentially, each feat slot is now a 'day-long buff' for the fighter.
c) Let's a character grab a feat for an emergency. This is a 'spot buff' for the fighter, almost the same as swift casting.
d) lets the character add to his Feat pool.
e) the player and DM should determine where he can draw his feats from. If a feat is contentious or rare, the DM may require training or spending a Skill point or favored class point and mandate it be in his feat pool before he can use it for Inspiration.
Thoughts?
==Aelryinth
a 'Feat Pool' that can be changed for the long term during morning exercises, and in the short term like the brawler does, is a decent way of addressing both the preparation before hand and the 'I need it now' requirements of life. However, this also opens up the can of worms of what feats exactly he should have access to on the spur of the moment.
Honestly, for the King of Combat? I'd say anything labelled a combat feat. :)
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In my feat re-write so far, I've been condensing most feats into 1-3 feats for an entire concept. Currently the Two Weapon Fighting "schtick" has about 16 feats for various things (the main ones, plus things like Net and Trident, etc).
My change has basically added an "Improvements" section of the feat, where you gain additional functionality by having weapon proficiency (for instance, having net proficiency gives you basically the net and trident feat benefits, cooked into the base TWF feat), or by having higher BAB: over time you gain more out of that one feat choice.
So for TWF I had the main feat that gives "proficiency" at TWF (offhand attacks, main proficiency benefits like having a net or using ranged weapons with melee, and shield bashing).
Then I have two other feats that emphasize more specific methods of TWF; one for using the offhand to parry and mess up your target, and another for outright smashing someone.
On the flipside, I have only one skill boosting feat (granting a combination of focus and 2/2 bonus, plus class skills and tricks, gaining more with levels) and one defensive feat (pick a save or natural armor and gain scaling benefits related to that choice). You pick a feat for Great Fortitude, you are now really good at fortitude (things like swapping Str into Fort save, rerolls, evasion effects).
This means characters with 10 feats doesn't blow *all* his feats to be good at one thing, rather I focused on the idea that they should burn maybe 1/3rd of their feats to be great at a single thing, so you can be great at at least 3 things by 20th level. Or "effective" at a half dozen.
And while the feats grant a lot of functionality, their bonuses are still tied to level, so you don't end up with overpowered bonuses. You just end up being effective at more tasks.
And a Fighter being able to swap out a pile of combat feats each day (or suddenly get access to one temporarily, like the brawler), means he can adjust his fighting capability on the fly.
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Skill Ranks are a sore point with me. Ranks should represent knowledge and in-depth understanding of a skill. Everything else is a just a bonus to the check. Skill Ranks should determine what you can and cannot do, like milestones on a journey. Big bonuses then help you do those things better.
Agreed.
Something I had been thinking of doing was breaking down the skills a bit.
I know you have a dislike of "tricks", however it does allow a more customizable mechanic. Having a trick or two to become "really good a jumping" makes it so you can have an athlete who's an Olympic jumper, but not great at all forms of acrobatics (or in my rewrite, Athletics). Tricks would do things like "must have X ranks, now your jump height isn't divided by 4". Or "if you tumble through enemy space, they are flatfooted".
Doing this gives build options, and allows giving a more powerful ability to Rogue to gain and swap tricks with a little preparation, putting him ahead in use of skills (a reason to play the rogue over other skilled classes).
That serves double duty as requiring a devoted smith to forge exotic objects, and high enough level to both understand what he's doing, and being able enough to do it. You give skill points meaning and value.
Once you differentiate "bonus" from "rank" in valuation, you can create a greater gradient in granting skills.
An idea I'd been tossing around was to bring back skill synergies by doing something like the following:
If a skill is a class skill, it gains a +3 bonus to checks, and each rank placed in it grants a virtual rank that can be placed in any synergy skill listed. Virtual ranks grant a bonus to the check, but do not count towards requirements (such as for feats, skill tricks, etc).
So for example, I'd have Ride listed with the following synergy skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Fly, and Swim.
So a Fighter could place a rank in Ride, and gain a bonus to his Athletics checks (Climb and Jump checks). He'd only be able to pick tricks for Ride, but at least he'd be effective at doing more things for the skill points spent.
By the time you have enough virtual ranks to spread around to make a difference, skills will be relying on tricks to be level-appropriate anyways. It still helps though, so you aren't stuck with an athletic fighter who can only be great at 2 things, so he has to give up on something like Climb or Swim. How is that athletic?
Proposed feat flexibility for the fighter: Resolve - Versatility
...
Thoughts?
It's a solid idea, though it does change the fighter a bit in that it now gives him a resource to manage, which makes him more like the other classes.
While I understand some folks dislike "unique" mechanics for each class (it makes a large list of "how do I play this" when dealing with tons of classes), I would still prefer to cleave towards the "feel" of the Fighter class.
A mechanic for non-resource managing methods of abilities (keeping something an "all-day-long" ability) would be to allow something for a short period, but then have a cool down time before using it again.
So for the Fighter, he can spot a feat for a few rounds or minutes (whatever method you choose), but then is unable to do this again for a period (minutes? an hour?).
It keeps the feel of "I can do this all day long", but still keeps the benefit temporary for the individual use. Scaling benefit might be, more feats that can be chosen at once, or something to that effect.
Your Feat Pool ends up making things a little more complicated as well. When I created my "versatile feats", I just worded as "Any combat feat, you don't need to meet requirements other than level (so BAB or Ranks)". This kept it incredibly simple, and don't really have to keep track of a running tally or anything.
This isn't to say that your idea is poor, rather that it changes the feel of the Fighter class. It may be desirable on your part to change the Fighter gameplay feel. If you want to keep it more towards the original feel, I'd look towards mechanics more like the above.
Skill Synergy: Athletic (Training, Technique, Talent)
Gain a +2 bonus on Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim checks. At 10th level, this doubles to +4.
(Fighter) Resolve +1. These three skills are considered 1 class skill for you (Athletics). You may use your highest physical stat for these skills.
(Rogue) Cunning +2. These three skills are considered 1 class skill for you (Athletics). You may use your Dexterity for all uses of these skills. You add your Cunning Bonus to all uses of these skills.
:)
I consider Ride an important enough skill to break out on its own.
==Aelryinth
Proposed feat flexibility for the fighter: Resolve - Versatility
...
Thoughts?
It's a solid idea, though it does change the fighter a bit in that it now gives him a resource to manage, which makes him more like the other classes.
While I understand some folks dislike "unique" mechanics for each class (it makes a large list of "how do I play this" when dealing with tons of classes), I would still prefer to cleave towards the "feel" of the Fighter class.
A mechanic for non-resource managing methods of abilities (keeping something an "all-day-long" ability) would be to allow something for a short period, but then have a cool down time before using it again.
So for the Fighter, he can spot a feat for a few rounds or minutes (whatever method you choose), but then is unable to do this again for a period (minutes? an hour?).
It keeps the feel of "I can do this all day long", but still keeps the benefit temporary for the individual use. Scaling benefit might be, more feats that can be chosen at once, or something to that effect.Your Feat Pool ends up making things a little more complicated as well. When I created my "versatile feats", I just worded as "Any combat feat, you don't need to meet requirements other than level (so BAB or Ranks)". This kept it incredibly simple, and don't really have to keep track of a running tally or anything.
This isn't to say that your idea is poor, rather that it changes the feel of the Fighter class. It may be desirable on your part to change the Fighter gameplay feel. If you want to keep it more towards the original feel, I'd look towards mechanics more like the above.
Oh, the standard is the Fighter ignores all pre-reqs except BAB. Feat , skill, and stat pre-reqs are something other classes have to put up with.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, yes Tyranny of Stats is biased, doesn't mean it's a terrible game mechanic. The problem is it doesn't affect spell-casters, and if it did affect spell-casters it would prevent many problems occurring because spell-casters have too much freedom.
The Blindfighting feat doesn't require a prerequisite. And Improved Blindfighting has a Perception skill rank 10 requirement. Blindfighting isn't dependent on a character's stats.
Okay I agree, the Two-Weapon feat tree is unusually demanding.
Using celestial plate as a means to discredit Armor Training is a bit disingenuous. It's a rare and extreme example, few fantasy narratives see hordes of fighters running around in celestial plate. Armor Training works fine and there are archetypes that allow players to trade out Armor Training for something else.
Note that on-the-fly changeable Feats are not without precedent. For instance, the Inquisitor can do this with Bonus Teamwork Feats:
{. . .}
As a standard action, the inquisitor can choose to learn a new bonus teamwork feat in place of the most recent bonus teamwork feat she has already learned. In effect, the inquisitor loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. She can only change the most recent teamwork feat gained. Whenever she gains a new teamwork feat, the previous teamwork feat becomes set and cannot be changed again. An inquisitor can change her most recent teamwork feat a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom modifier.
For the Fighter, make this apply to Combat Feats instead of just Teamwork Feats.
Also see THIS.
Note that on-the-fly changeable Feats are not without precedent. For instance, the Inquisitor can do this with Bonus Teamwork Feats:
{. . .}
As a standard action, the inquisitor can choose to learn a new bonus teamwork feat in place of the most recent bonus teamwork feat she has already learned. In effect, the inquisitor loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. She can only change the most recent teamwork feat gained. Whenever she gains a new teamwork feat, the previous teamwork feat becomes set and cannot be changed again. An inquisitor can change her most recent teamwork feat a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom modifier.
For the Fighter, make this apply to Combat Feats instead of just Teamwork Feats.
Also see THIS.
IMO swapping feats makes little sense. If a fighter or inquisitor has a history of using the Power Attack feat or Paired Opportunists feat (won milestone battles with it)then in later battles can't perform those martial feats (as they have been swapped out) really goes against what martial characters are all about.
Swapping feats was cut and paste from the sorcerer and bard class of swapping spells known. It's lazy design.
There are better and more intelligent house rules (designed by players) that allow martial classes to maintain their vast knowledge of the fighting arts.
The Inquisitor's way of swapping feats isn't copy and paste from the Sorcerer's/Bard's/Inquisitor's way of swapping spells, since the latter only happens once each time the Sorcerer/Bard/Inquisitor gains a level after a level when they would gain access to a new Spell Level, while the Inquisitor's Feat swapping is on the fly (and can be done a few times per day), and applies to the last Teamwork Feat (earlier Teamwork Feats become fixed).
IMO swapping feats makes little sense. If a fighter or inquisitor has a history of using the Power Attack feat or Paired Opportunists feat (won milestone battles with it)then in later battles can't perform those martial feats (as they have been swapped out) really goes against what martial characters are all about.
A person getting 350 xp more and suddenly he can Power Attack where before he couldn't.
The way I resolve that kind of game mechanic in roleplaying is that the person is always training that combat ability, over and over, just shy of doing the maneuvers exactly right to get the benefit. Then when he levels, he's "got it" and the benefits kick in.
Now to just apply that reasoning towards Fighter training.
"The Fighter is always training in a wide array of combat tactics. With 1 hour of training, he can refresh his tactical maneuvers to gain the benefits of a selection of bonus feats."
On the flipside, I wouldn't be averse to the Fighter eventually losing access to those bonus feats if he can't maintain his daily training.
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It's lazy design.There are better and more intelligent house rules (designed by players) that allow martial classes to maintain their vast knowledge of the fighting arts.
Ouch. That's harsh.
I actually think it opens up a range of possibilities.
The fighter can train during downtime, needing at least 1 hour. Now you have a time during the day that he can not only change out his feats, but also tack on other effects:
- Train others in weapon/armor proficiencies, combat feats, or even tactical competence bonuses. Grant haste or extra move action at some point in the future, etc.
- Empower himself with some kind of bulwark, resolving himself against a particular effect (today I'm immune to stunning, or confusion).
- Give a temporary bonus to a skill check for the day, he spent time brushing up on crafting again so he can do some stuff during the downtime.
Just swapping feats might sound boring, but it's ultimately a boring mechanic overall (I get feats). If you are going to keep it, then allowing swapping on a daily basis (instead of 1 feat every 4 levels) at the very least makes it manageable. This should have been the bare minimum.
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All this is simply an explanation why I feel it can fit, roleplaying-wise, and why I find it a decently exciting mechanic.
Obviously, you might not feel the same, and that's cool. Chocolate vs Vanilla, blah, blah, blah... you know what I mean.
What about being able to swap out feats for another with it as a prereq? For example, TWF can be swapped for Imp TWF, and he is still considered to have any other feats tied to a previous feat for future prereqs. That would allow use of the bonus feat slots of the current Fighter without giving him a whole bunch more feat "slots". He would be gaining additional opportunities to enhance previous feats through the use of the organized feat trees.
Also, I think allowing the Fighter to gain additional feats based on his Int modifier is a great way to reward smart fighters. Much like stats reward spellcasters with bonus spells. So a 1st level Fighter with an Int of 13 gains 1 additional combat feat. As his Int increases, he continues to gain additional bonus combat feats for every point his modifier increases. Thus a Fighter with an Intelligence of 20 would gain a total of 5 bonus combat feats over his career as a reward for his continued learning over the years.
This takes care of Physical stat prerequisites for the fighter, and gives them a quicker access to many feats by lowing the BAB prereqs.This allows the fighter to use current bonus feat slots to increase his training within the feat trees without losing previous feats or their functions. It's sort of like wizards learning dispel magic and then greater dispel magic, or similar "spell trees", without making a huge change to the current mechanics.
A change to the whole way the Fighter gains and uses combat feats, and allowing for bonus feats for high Int should be the two focal points for adjustments to the class. Use the already organized feat trees to better use, allowing him to continue to training along the tree without having to spend additional bonus feats, but add to/retrain a previous feat to gain one with the old feat as a prerequisite.
So here' what I came up with, and can be adjusted for any other loopholes I've missed. Use or ingnore as you wish, but I think its a simple way to work within the current mechanics without a complete overhaul.
In addition, the fighter gains bonus feats for a high Intelligence score, just a wizard can gain bonus spells per day. At 1st level, the fighter gains a number of bonus feats equal to his Intelligence modifier. As the fighter’s Intelligence score increases, he gains an additional bonus feat for each point his Intelligence modifier increases beyond 1st. This does not apply to temporary increases to his Intelligence scores, such as those granted by a head band of vast intelligence or similar magical effect.
Upon reaching 4th level, and every two levels thereafter (6th, 8th, and so on), a fighter can gain advanced training with a bonus feat he has already learned. The fighter chooses one new feat that uses the old feat as its prerequisite. The fighter is considered to have the old feat (and any previous feats he has learned along the feat tree), but learns the new feat in the old feat’s bonus feat “slot”. In effect, the fighter increases his training along a specific path of combat training (feat tree) by learning more advanced techniques to those previously learned. For example, a fighter learns Two-Weapon Fighting. At 4th level, he chooses to advance his training within that feat tree and learns Improved Two-Weapon Fighting in his Two-Weapon Fighting bonus feat slot. At 10th level, he can choose to learn Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level. The fighter must meet all other the prerequisites of the new feat as normal.
That's my 2 cp! :D
You can't give the Fighter Combat feats From an Int bonus as part of his class. What you'll get is some class with high Int dipping fighter for a bunch of feats.
Do you really want some 14 Int bard dipping fighter to pick up 3 combat feats? Or a 24 Int Wizard or Magus grabbing a slew of Combat feats in addition to their Improved Initiative?
That's why I was tying it to Resolve (Bravery). That's exactly 5 more bonus feats of a specific type. It's like having a 20 Int, but you're rewarded for levels, not a stat, so it doesn't reward a dipper.
The Int reward is indirect, since it increases the size of your Feat Pool, giving you a wider variety of 'day long buffs' to pick from with a little bit of time and mental reorientation.
The other reason is because of the 'open ended' nature of feats. There's always going to be more feats, and the fighter is never going to be able to get them all...unlike spells. But temporarily, he can grab any feat he knows of for a short while, and with a little preparation, open up an entire feat chain for an entire day.
If you think that 'swapping in' and 'losing knowledge' of an existing feat is cheesy...then ignore the bonus feat and just keep the slot empty, so it can filled 'on demand'. He loses day long customization, but keeps inspiration of the moment, and the potential ability to tap rare or new feats. In this case, the feat pool becomes 'exotic feats' outside the normal rules that the GM agrees are unique enough to warrant a cost of their own.
Note that 'day long buffs' (i.e. Versatile Feats) represent a major shift in fighting style and stuff, and mental focus to stay away from previous tricks in favor of the current ones the fighter is bringing out. So, yeah, you can justify 'swapping in' feats, as long as there's a good reason for doing so. Bringing in Inspired feats of the moment reflects the fact the fighter is abandoning everything on the spur of the moment in an urgent, perhaps desperate drive to apply the proper tool to a situation where what he's been practicing doesn't work. When the situation ends, he goes back to his normal focus.
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Elghinn, if you're going to ignore pre-reqs, just ignore them. Rangers don't have to worry about having a 9 Dex, they can still TWF. Most classes that have bonus feats don't worry about pre-reqs. Why is the Fighter, the Lord of Feats, held to a higher standard?
Basically, if he takes a feat through one of his bonus feats, he should be able to ignore the pre-reqs (except perhaps BAB). If it's of his School style (re: ranger), he can take it as soon as the ranger can, at the very least.
As for 'advancing' up a feat tree...that's just more bonus feats with a restriction that you must have a previous feat. More people would rather there be a TWF Technique that the Fighter automatically improves, instead...but it's all one and the same, just how you are going to go about it.
Effectively, you're just giving him another 8 or so bonus feats.
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It's good to see they got rid of the Wis req on Blindfighting.
==Aelryinth
The fighter has to meet the prerequisites for feats, otherwise he would rival the cleric in power. I mean, come on, he can take Improved Initiative and Dodge at level 1. And if they're a human they can take Skill Focus: Profession (Shoeshine) too! How broken is that? IMBA! NERF PLZ!
Honestly, if I was going to rework fighters from the ground up I wouldn't mind the feat-train we've been stuck with so far as that's actually a handy little setup. Adding in more wouldn't really solve any problems, but taking away prerequisites for sets of combat feats might be a good idea to help make a lower statted character get what they want to function.
I am not the hugest fan of 'preparing' feats or what have you as it ultimately seems like it would involve a lot more rules referencing than I would like.
What I would like to see in addition is something like the Grit/Penache points that, rather than tick down as you use them, build up as they act like more of the rough-and-tumble badass combatant we've come to see in the art. I just want to bounce spells of my shield or peel platemail open with a pick. Is that so hard to get?
I dunno. My 2c without looking over the posts before extensively. :B
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on feat prerequisites and retraining:
i like the two ideas together. prerequisites are a restriction, retraining is a relaxation - using them together enables structured wriggle-room. a fighter's 'build' would be dictated by his ability scores - and by 'build' i mean 'access' to any feat in any book that has ability score prerequisites. if it's used in the "1/day after a full night's rest and 1 hour preparation" fashion it closely resembles the Cleric's ability to prepare spells.
also, at every 4th level the fighter can already permanently retrain a feat. the decision between whether a feat ought to be permanent or retrainable is a matter of frequency of usage. some feats might be useful every fight - these are your permanents. others have a highly situational use - these are your retrainables.
what we are working against here is the user-friendliness of the fighter. they are supposed to be the easiest class to play. i think a fair trade-off between applicability and flexibility is to introduce daily retraining later in the fighter's career. that way, they are pretty straight-forward to play right out of the gates for a few levels, allowing the player to get a feel for the character, then we introduce options and complexity later.
my 2 cp.
Permanent feat swaps are matched up against daily spell swaps for prepared casters.
Note that spon casters can swap out a spell every other level. And they get 45-60 spells over their career. Not 11. With 11 feats, it would not overpower the fighter if he could totally overhaul his feat selection every single day! Although it would crush his flavor since he'd never be locked in to anything.
When is 'later in their career'? Because 1/day at 3rd level means you get the flavor of being able to grab what you need, without overpowering anything. It means that anyone that plays a fighter will pretty much get to use the ability. "later in their career' can be anything from level 3 'most people get' to level 10 'some people get' to level 15+ "Few people get to play with."
I am ENTIRELY opposed to stat reqs for fighters. Fighters train. Training overcomes need for stats. Having a fighter's class abilities reliant on a plethora of stats is non-sensical and NO OTHER CLASS WITH BONUS FEATS has to put up with it.
So, just, no. Freedom from the tyranny of stats for a fighter's class features - his bonus feats. His general feats, sure, but NOT his class features.
As for simplest and easiest to play - that's the barbarian. It's hard to go wrong with one. Throg smash, use a rage round, grab a big sword, done.
Fighters, because they are so dependent on feats, and because feats vary so much in value, are actually very hard to play. The lack of viable defenses, backhanded and forehanded stat requirements, and no out of combat usefulness to speak of built into the class means its a trap option for new players.
===Aelryinth
The fighter has to meet the prerequisites for feats, otherwise he would rival the cleric in power. I mean, come on, he can take Improved Initiative and Dodge at level 1. And if they're a human they can take Skill Focus: Profession (Shoeshine) too! How broken is that? IMBA! NERF PLZ!
Honestly, if I was going to rework fighters from the ground up I wouldn't mind the feat-train we've been stuck with so far as that's actually a handy little setup. Adding in more wouldn't really solve any problems, but taking away prerequisites for sets of combat feats might be a good idea to help make a lower statted character get what they want to function.
I am not the hugest fan of 'preparing' feats or what have you as it ultimately seems like it would involve a lot more rules referencing than I would like.
What I would like to see in addition is something like the Grit/Penache points that, rather than tick down as you use them, build up as they act like more of the rough-and-tumble badass combatant we've come to see in the art. I just want to bounce spells of my shield or peel platemail open with a pick. Is that so hard to get?
I dunno. My 2c without looking over the posts before extensively. :B
I consider Grit, panache and rage rounds all coming from the same pool of semi-magical stuff, and generally want no part of such things for a fighter.
"Preparing" feats is completely voluntary. if you don't want to reference a feat, don't reference them. But if you want to explore the option, it's there. If you and the GM want to save time, you can put them on index cards, and if you can't bring the feat out, then you can't use the ability. The only way it should drag the game down is if the player isn't thinking about what to do when it's not their turn, and in such case the GM should just deny using the ability so as not to slow the game down.
Use of swapping feats is tactical management on the fighter's part. It caters to playing an intelligent combatant, not Throg Smash. Of all the melee classes, the fighter should be the most intelligent combatant to face.
==Aelryinth
Oh yes, the evil 1 level dip min/maxers always look for. But 1st level wizard dip would also give a dipper with high Int bonus spells too. But I get your point.
Then why not make the bonus feats function like spells, like what I believe rainzax is suggesting.
1) Ignore prereques, but group all combat feats into groups he can grab at certain levels (say 1st, 4th & 8th) like they do for the ranger combat style feats. He should be able to access certain feats sooner than other classes that ignore feat prereqs, but not necessarily ignore the fact that time and training are really a part of why he can access them. This way they are tied to experience, not stats.
2) Then at fourth level (or even starting at 2nd level if you wanted), he can choose each day what his complement of feats are, changing his compliment of bonus feats (like a wizards prepares his spells) by spending 1 hour training in the morning and getting 8 hours of sleep previously. The 1st and 2nd level bonus feats would give him the base for what type of build he's looking for. All the combat feats would be considered his "spell list" akin to what a wizard has, but then he chooses what to "prepare" for that day.
With this idea, he could select TWF at 1st, replace it with Imp TWF at 4th, and Gtr TWF at 8th. Using the Combat Style Feats mechanic is a good way to go. It would just be a matter of grouping all combat feats into a 1st, 4th or 8th level grouping. If you think about it. a fighter should be trained in the basics of all manner of combat styles and techniques from 1st level, but it's his choice of bonus feats that determine his skill level in them.
Now we could go ahead and build a larger more extensive list of "styles" like the ranger, but I think that would defeat the purpose. Splitting all the combat feats into 1st, 4th, or 8th level is simpler, and any new feats would simply get slotted into the mix.
Then you can implement your resolve ability to grant additional bonus feats. But if you go about the combat style approach where you can swap out and improve, is there really any reason for your resolve idea?
I suppose it would depend if the combat style feat approach uses the fighter's swap out/retrain ability of the bonus feats class feature. It comes down to striking the balance of removing annoying restrictions to the "Lord of Feats" Fighter, and giving him unrestricted to access any and every combat feat without some structure to how and when to access them.
I think if we use the Combat style feat approach (no prereq, other than gaining access to feats at either 1st/4th/8th), then allowing retraining of feats at 4th, 8th, etc, like the bonus feat ability allows could be a good balance. That would allow a Fighter to select TWF at 1st, Imp TWF at 4th, then retrain his previous TWF for something else. This would essentially allow the automatic improving of TWF or other feats without wasting bonus feat slots to do so.
Obviously, feats chosen as normal feats would not be allowed to be "retrained". I think the versatility of the bonus feats, plus the static choices of normal feats, especially for noncombat feats would be good.
Then your Resolve ability could grant additional "spontaneous" bonus feats at 2/6/10/14/18. These could be chosen daily from the list of 1st, 4th, and 8th level group feats as well. This would give him daily versatility. Either that, or use them as open slots that he can spontaneously enact a certain number of feats per day (from 1 to 5) that last for 1 combat. So a 10th level fighter (+3 combat feats) could use one of his spontaneous slots in one combat to gain a specific feat, and the other 2 slots for his next combat. Once those are done, he regains the slots by resting and retraining the next day.
Definitely a lot to consider, whether the fighter should be able to change all his bonus feats each day like spells) or gains a small number of "spontaneous" feats slots via your Resolve idea. I think accessing them via a Combat Style Feat mechanic + retraining at certain levels is a definite and balanced way to go - structured restrictions with versatility, like having spell levels and spell slots. Then spontaneous access to a small number of feats each day from those level groupings would round it out. Kind of like how the arcanist could have a spellbook with all the spells in it (like combat feats for Fighters should be), but he can prepare a certain number for the day from what's in the spellbook.
Sorry for the wall of text, this is how I work out problems with mechanics and concepts. Just trying to find the right balance of what you're trying to achieve with the whole fighter feats thing.
Use of swapping feats is tactical management on the fighter's part. It caters to playing an intelligent combatant, not Throg Smash. Of all the melee classes, the fighter should be the most intelligent combatant to face.
Totally agree. I've always played an intelligent Fighter, but there was never really any mechanics of features to work that in except through RP. Feats and tactics should be the fighter's bread and butter. -
I'm going to see what I can come up with over the next day or so.
I don't have much to add to the discussion at this point, but I agree with your design principles wholeheartedly. Class design is something I've been thinking about a fair amount lately, and I'm very interested to see what you come up with. Do you have an estimate for when it'll be ready for playtesting? I'm running a campaign that just reached 3rd level, and I'm already seeing problems with the group's fighter.
I don't have much to add to the discussion at this point, but I agree with your design principles wholeheartedly. Class design is something I've been thinking about a fair amount lately, and I'm very interested to see what you come up with. Do you have an estimate for when it'll be ready for playtesting? I'm running a campaign that just reached 3rd level, and I'm already seeing problems with the group's fighter.
You could let your fightr retrain a bonus feat at every even level, or every odd, or both for that matter. Its your game.
You could let your fightr retrain a bonus feat at every even level, or every odd, or both for that matter. Its your game.
Well, yes. But the problem isn't with his current feat selection, but has to do with problems with the feats system itself, and how it's integrated with the fighter. They're long term problems. He doesn't know it yet, but I suspect that he's going to feel crappy come late game, and with the current class chassis it's not easy to fix that.
There are lots of quick fixes I could apply, and I still may, but they're not exactly my idea of a long-term solution. You can only patch something so much before you're better off tearing it down and building anew, after all. Aelryinth seems inclined to do that, and his stated design goals mesh fairly well with my own thoughts so far.
I see. You could go super old school and just pile him up with epic level magic items, or... you could simply allow a spontaneous class change, which is more of less what using a fighter re-write would be doing. Whats the overall jist of the character?
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Elghinn Lightbringer,
aside from the rewriting all feat trees part, i like your 1/4/8/12/16/20 prepared and 2/6/10/14/18 spontaneous idea. have you seen this bloke's techniques?
Aelryinth,
to clarify, i am open to the fighter obeying prerequisites for combat feats if and only if they are used in conjunction with some kind of prepared/spontaneous feat retraining ability. in fact, i think that either without the other is 'wrong' (an admittedly subjective term).
Elghinn Lightbringer,
aside from the rewriting all feat trees part, i like your 1/4/8/12/16/20 prepared and 2/6/10/14/18 spontaneous idea. have you seen this bloke's techniques?
Hmm, so essentially he's amalgamated various feats into groups that you automatically gain once you meet the prereqs. That's an elegant idea. Sort of like the Combat Feat styles, but not. Plus, with overlapping feats within the different techniques, that balances a bit with not getting access to tons of feats, just certain common combat feats.
Glozm's techniques list is indeed simple and elegant. it effectively gives the fighter x4 feats, Since every Technique is essentially 4 feats in one (or close to it, Power Attack is inside several feats).
It's less a feat rewrite then a quick and dirty feat agglomeration of core feats. It would be extremely easy to implement and for a quick and easy fix I'll happily endorse people using it.
I instead went the harder route, making feats that scale, that reference Fighter abilities for reqs, and that synergize with other feats (esp Expertise).
It doesn't take into account the fact that there are always new feats coming out, and the Fighter should be the one to sample them. A caster has no problem getting the latest spell, even if it's only on a scroll. A fighter being able to use Versatile feats would solve that problem.
So, we'd end up with a Fighter having 4 feat categories:
Combat Techniques (Combat feats that scale and synergize, fighter-only)
Training Techniques (that deal with skills, movement, saves and non-direct combat stuff).
Versatile: Standard combat feats that can be swapped out per day to give the fighter a different look and feel depending on what he's doing that day.
Inspired: The ability to grab a combat feat on the spur of the moment and use it, taken from all or a large list of combat feats.
These feats would be treated separately from his other class features, since they are effectively his 'spell list'.
Since the power of the Fighter would be in his Techniques list, as the scaling combat feats, the schools of the Ranger should rarely be necessary, as the advantages thereon should be folded into mainline Techniques (basically, every set of Ranger school feats should probably be a Technique).
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BTW, up above where I referred to Celestial Plate Mail as the example armor for the Dex stat req, that was deliberate since a heavy armor wearer is not going to be able to use his Armor Training, period, with it.
However, the example holds true for lighter armor wearers. Someone in elven mail at 10th level has a +8 Dex limit on that armor, and is hugely unlikely to have the 26 Dex to make full use of his class benefits. Even having a 28 Dex at 12th and 30 dex at 16th is extremely unlikely.
So, +to armor dex limit should be removed and replaced with a scaling AC bonus, like a monk, or something similar. i.e. the Fighter should get an AC bonus, not a mock AC bonus he likely will find a hard time using.
I mean, the only way he's going to need it is probably wearing an inferior set of armor. What good is that?
==+Aelryinth
What about being able to swap out feats for another with it as a prereq? For example, TWF can be swapped for Imp TWF, and he is still considered to have any other feats tied to a previous feat for future prereqs. That would allow use of the bonus feat slots of the current Fighter without giving him a whole bunch more feat "slots". He would be gaining additional opportunities to enhance previous feats through the use of the organized feat trees.
{. . .}
This does almost the same thing as what I was suggesting with letting the Fighter get Feat Chains instead of single Feats starting at a certain level, except that you start it at an earlier level (the specific levels I specified were to be subject to balance tweaking anyway). One important difference, though, is that if you just bump the Feat up higher in the chain without keeping the earlier Feats, you lose the benefits of the earlier Feats. In some cases you actually want to be able to use the benefits of the earlier Feats in the chain even after you have gained the later ones, and the later ones might not even be fully usable without the earlier ones, even if you are allowed to ignore the prerequisites. For an example, look at the chain Snake Style, Snake Sidewind, Snake Fang. In some cases this occurs because earlier and later Feats in a chain actually provide stacking bonuses (for instance, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus). So just let the Fighter replace the single Feat with the chain after gaining enough levels.
IMO economy of action needs to be fixed.
Pew PEw PEW needs to go away.
too many spells are standard actions, some need to be full round actions and a few should have more than one round to get them off.
While it's off topic, I concur on much spellcasting.
Spellcasting should be split into battle magic you can get off as a standard action, normal magic which takes a full round action, and Ritual Magic which takes longer then that.
Evocation would come into its own if it became the battle magic school, while Summoning could definitely use rules like summoned beasts turning on the caster if the spell is dispelled, or having control of your summons seized from you and turned on you.
==Aelryinth
What about being able to swap out feats for another with it as a prereq? For example, TWF can be swapped for Imp TWF, and he is still considered to have any other feats tied to a previous feat for future prereqs. That would allow use of the bonus feat slots of the current Fighter without giving him a whole bunch more feat "slots". He would be gaining additional opportunities to enhance previous feats through the use of the organized feat trees.
{. . .}
This does almost the same thing as what I was suggesting with letting the Fighter get Feat Chains instead of single Feats starting at a certain level, except that you start it at an earlier level (the specific levels I specified were to be subject to balance tweaking anyway). One important difference, though, is that if you just bump the Feat up higher in the chain without keeping the earlier Feats, you lose the benefits of the earlier Feats. In some cases you actually want to be able to use the benefits of the earlier Feats in the chain even after you have gained the later ones, and the later ones might not even be fully usable without the earlier ones, even if you are allowed to ignore the prerequisites. For an example, look at the chain Snake Style, Snake Sidewind, Snake Fang. In some cases this occurs because earlier and later Feats in a chain actually provide stacking bonuses (for instance, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus). So just let the Fighter replace the single Feat with the chain after gaining enough levels.
Which is to a large extent what Glozm's Techniques and my own do. Much simpler, too, as you noted.
==Aelryinth
While it's off topic, I concur on much spellcasting.
Spellcasting should be split into battle magic you can get off as a standard action, normal magic which takes a full round action, and Ritual Magic which takes longer then that.
Evocation would come into its own if it became the battle magic school, while Summoning could definitely use rules like summoned beasts turning on the caster if the spell is dispelled, or having control of your summons seized from you and turned on you.
==Aelryinth
Personally, I'd like a large number of magic changed from "spells" to more like spellcasting ability containers (to use a term from Mutants and Masterminds). Summoning for example, would be more about rituals bringing forth entities, and anyone trained in summoning could attempt to wrest control, sever the ties of control or simply banish/unmake them.
You know, without having to find, scribe, memorize and use up a spell slot to do one single attempt of one of those.Do this with the other types of spellcasting. Spells and slots would be more about specific utility, limited use or spells that are container effects themselves (but don't belong as a particular spellcasting school container, like wish).
Less spell slots, but more freefrom ability in your chosen school. Universalist gaining freeform utility magic would actually make it a fun choice (imo).
.
But enough about spellcasting in a fighter thread... that was just my stream of thought on something I haven't even attempted to write down anything specific yet.
What about being able to swap out feats for another with it as a prereq? For example, TWF can be swapped for Imp TWF, and he is still considered to have any other feats tied to a previous feat for future prereqs. That would allow use of the bonus feat slots of the current Fighter without giving him a whole bunch more feat "slots". He would be gaining additional opportunities to enhance previous feats through the use of the organized feat trees.
{. . .}
This does almost the same thing as what I was suggesting with letting the Fighter get Feat Chains instead of single Feats starting at a certain level
...
So just let the Fighter replace the single Feat with the chain after gaining enough levels.
Which is to a large extent what Glozm's Techniques and my own do. Much simpler, too, as you noted.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, this was how I wrote the bonus feats section for my fighter.
My Valeros Iconic build (at level 12) had the following feat selections as his go-to choices:
Combat Versatility (7 at once, chosen daily with 1 hour training)REGULAR
Greater Two Weapon Fighting (Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting)
Two Weapon Rend (Double Slice)
Improved Vital Strike (Vital Strike)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Longsword (Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization)
3x Open (chosen as a full round action)RANGED FOCUSED
Greater Weapon Specialization: Longbow (Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization)
Improved Precise Shot -or- Clustered Shots (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot)
Manyshot (Rapid Shot)
Deadly Aim
Shot on the Run (Dodge, Mobility)
Lightning Stance (Wind Stance)
Point-Blank Master -or- Far ShotMOUNTED FOCUSED
Mounted Skirmisher (Mounted Combat, Trick Riding)
Spirited Charge (Ride-by Attack)
Mounted Archery
Trample
Greater Overrun (Improved Overrun, Power Attack)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Longbow (Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Longsword (Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization)PROTECTION FOCUSED
In Harm's Way (Bodyguard)
Stand Still (Combat Reflexes)
Covering Defense (Shield Focus)
Greater Trip (Improved Trip)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Longsword (Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization)
Lunge
Whirlwind Attack (Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack)
This is what he can do "as class ability" at 12th level. He also gets his fixed 6 character feats (or 7 if human) over this.
I think I wrote him up as selecting things like Iron Will, Toughness, a Skill Focus, Improved Initiatve and Nimble Moves/Acrobatic Steps stuff. Things that are generally "always" useful or gives additional non-combat specific benefits.It doesn't feel like it's "overpowered in ability".. when compared to other 12th level character ability suites.
Just curious, how are you handling the fact that Valeros wields long and short while TWF?
I handled it by having the fighter select a primary and a secondary at level 1. The secondary weapon gains all the benefits of the primary if wielded at the same time, allowing you to TWF with very different weapons, but retain the full bonuses of each.
==Aelryinth
I think it would be very thematic for a fighter that when he gains any feat that requires him to choose a weapon, he instead chooses two weapons.
I'm not sure if you make Weapon Spec = the entire spec tree, that you should also make it include two weapons.
Maybe as a side effect of TWF you could do so.
==Aelryinth
Or a number of weapons equal to his bravery bonus.
What I mean is that when he choose Weapon Focus, he chooses two weapons. WHen he chooses Critical Focus, he chooses two weapons. When he chooses Exotic Weapon Proficiency, he chooses two weapons. When he chooses Weapon Specialization, he chooses two weapons he has Weapon Focus for.
Sure, it might not make sense for Spike Chain and Lowbow, but it certainly makes sense for two weapons in the same weapon group when we're talking about the undisputed master of weapons.
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I know what you mean, I just think five weapons over twenty levels is better than two when you choose the feat. :)
Sounds like making Martial Versatility and Martial Mastery available to Fighters of all races would do what you want (and of course, make this a Feat Chain so that you can compact it at later levels), although 16th Level prerequisite for Martial Mastery sounds awfully steep -- probably ought to be able to get this a few levels earlier.
I believe I had some kind of shared benefit thing going with his Light Blades and/or Heavy Blades training. I had tacked on extra abilities that crossed over to all proficient weapons when selecting those, so they weren't so... focused in equipment.
What I mean is that when he choose Weapon Focus, he chooses two weapons. WHen he chooses Critical Focus, he chooses two weapons. When he chooses Exotic Weapon Proficiency, he chooses two weapons. When he chooses Weapon Specialization, he chooses two weapons he has Weapon Focus for.
Sure, it might not make sense for Spike Chain and Lowbow, but it certainly makes sense for two weapons in the same weapon group when we're talking about the undisputed master of weapons.
Totally agree.
I have always felt that weapon training wasn't carried through to its natural conclusion. The feats Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical should apply to all weapons in that group.
D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder has got us accustomed to seeing the fighter with insufficient class boons.
In comparison, the feat Spell Focus affects all spells in a particular school. Granting fighters the ability to have weapon focus with a very similar group of weapons just puts it on par with the Spell Focus feat.
Spell Focus is more akin to Weapon Training then to Weapon Focus. Spell Specialization is more akin to Weapon Focus (although Spell Spec is far more generous, it also has an odd view of limiting a spellcaster whose strength is solving many problems, not being master of one problem).
I'm a firm believer that if you are a Weapon Specialist, you are Singular Specialist. However, I apply that to the style, as much as a weapon.
So, if you're a TWF, Spec Longsword like Valeros, when you're using a shortsword at the same time as your declared secondary weapon, you get full benefits.
If your secondary weapon is a longbow, no. That's a completely different style.
I don't see the Weapon Spec Tree as something all fighters should get easily for all weapons. I do see them as being supreme with one weapon, and very good with a variety of weapons.
The way I'm handling it is at level 1 the Fighter has to declare his primary weapon, and a secondary weapon to go along with it. This forms his Primary Weapons group +0/+1 dmg.
Weapon focus + spec doubles his Weapon Training bonus (superceding Weapon Focus when appropriate). At level 1, this means Weapon Focus + WEapon training 0 + Weapon Spec gives the figher +1/+2 with his Specialized weapon.
If you're an old timer like me, that number should make you smile. The fighter FINALLY has a damage bonus at first level again!!!
His Primary Weapons group adds a weapon with every point of Bravery, a skill point, or an FC bonus point; and adds a Weapon Group that includes one of those weapons at level 4. So, he'll have in his primary Weapons group the weapons that he wants and uses, and have the best bonus with them.
If he takes Weapon Spec a second time, he can apply it to all Weapons in his Primary Weapon Group, at -1, so he's always best with his Primary Weapon and Primary Weapon Style.
If he takes it a third time, he gets this secondary bonus with all weapons in all his Weapon Groups (Note: All Secondary Weapon Groups are at -1 to the Primary, none of this +4/+3/+2/+1 stuff.)
My reasoning is there's the weapon the fighter wants to be known and famous for using; weapons he uses and trains with; weapons he practices with as part of his constant training; and other weapons that he knows how to use as part of his general skills.
I agree that Improved Critical should apply to any weapon you have Weapon Focus/spec in. IN effect, it should be part of the Weapon Spec tree.
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BTW, this dovetails perfectly with my earlier post on how you should revamp Weapon Profs.
The fighter and the paladin are the only classes with Weapon Prof in ALL martial weapons...the fighter by training, and the paladin by divine inspiration.
Other classes get a limited number of weapon profs at character level 1, and must spend skill points to acquire more. The Fighter instead spends skill points to get more awesome with more weapons!
So the barbarian and ranger can pick up weapons and get bonuses with them...but if they are not proficient, they take the penalty. This gives some teeth and value to weapon profs! It also equates weapon prof to skill points, since spending a skill point buys you prof in one weapon you qualify for (if you have the appropriate group proficiency, i.e. the simple/martial/monk/rogue/exotic weapon prof Feat).
==Aelryinth
Aelyrinth I'm an old timer too, and it's a nice addition to give fighters some edge at 1st level comparable to the Cleric's Energy Channel and the Rogue's sneak attack.
IMO the Spell Specialization feat is broken. Disappointed with Pathfinder designers, I thought they would have learned their lesson from D&D 3.5.
Just thinking in a simple framework (a houserule that can be easily implemented) that gives fighters more options.
Spellcasters don't have primary spells, does forcing fighters to select a primary weapon further expand the divide in character class freedom and ultimately options in combat?
I liked the design choice in Kirthfinder that made every weapon work differently depending upon the level of proficiency you had. It made exotic proficiency worth something even if you got it with a longsword.
Forcing a Fighter to select a primary weapon is a characterization of the fighter. He doesn't have to take Weapon Spec, but a fighter is by and large known as a swordsman, an archer, a lancer, an axeman...not a generalist.
So, REALLY good with one weapon, excellent with others, and proficient with all of them.
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Trogdar, I do use an Extraordinary Weapon proficiency.
20/x2 weapons improve to 19-20/x2. (simple weapons become martial)
20/x3 weapons and 19-20/x2 weapons both improve to 19-20/x3 (martial weapons become falcatas)
18-20/x2 weapons improve by one die size (scimitars become katanas).
The uneven discrepancy between weapons based on crit ability is annoying, so EWP is a tradeoff.
I treat Exotic Weapon Prof like the other Profs...having the Prof lets you buy weapons in that weapon class with skill points. So, Exotic lets you buy exotic weapons, martial lets you buy martial, monk lets you buy monk, simple lets you buy more simples.
Kirth brought back the old 1E damage tables, where weapons had different damage against larger creatures (i.e. you had more meat to cut open with a sword when stabbing an Ogre then stabbing a human). That's got a lot of flavor, but it's also a lot of work.
==Aelryinth
What about throwing in some semi-exotic proficiencies for free? He's already got tower shield, how about bastard sword and dwarven waraxe?
I honestly see Armor Training as paizo saying: "Yeah, well unlike the other Mithral-wearing losers, you can backflip in Adamantine Full-Plate and still have the same Dex-to-AC as them."
How about making the fighter all about iterative attacks?
There's the old shtick of being able to get whirlwind attack at level 4, which is the earliest of any single class in the game, and that actually got me thinking.
The Barbarian runs in and smashes things (Not to mention he gets pounce. Blegh.)
Then the fighter should be able to run in and smash things in style.
Perhaps the fighter could gain a wide variety of different attack options he could use for a penalty of 2-5 to his total attack bonus, but adding different effects and posibilities to such attacks. For instance, Piledriver in the Two-handed Weapon archetype allows you to make combat maneuvers and attack in one go, and later you get Devastating Strike (Ex) which essentially lands a no-compromise crit at level 20, as long as you can actually hit him.
If the fighter had a wide variety of such effects, essentially increasing his flexibility in combat, that could:
a) Give the class its own unique flavour, something the current fighter lacks.
b) Sepparate his role from just about any other dude with a Greatsword and Power Attack
c) Give him options other than full-attacking endlessly.
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Together with the feats, you could use this to build some really fun combat styles! For instance, a combat-maneuver-attack in combination with Greater Trip could easily earn you a very long attack of opportunity lockdown combo breaker, which is a fun combat style.
Or otherwise, you could have a grand variety of AoE attacks such as Whirlwind, each granting a different effect (Sickening Whirlwind, for instance.) to their enemies.
Perhaps some of these iteratives could emulate meta-magic for melee attacks, too. Maximized Vital Strike at -2 to hit. Empowered Devastating Blow at -5 to hit. So on and so forth!
Aelyrinth, I agree that fighters are designed to be warriors with a primary weapon specialization.
However, fighters don't exist in isolation and I was thinking that the freedom given to spell-casters pushes fighters to multitask.
The biggest complaint is that fighters don't have many options. One trick ponies who can only deal damage.
Strong contrast between the statistics of weapons would give reason for fighters to use a wide assortment of weapons. Just like how spell-casters use a wide assortment of spells.
Giving special characteristics to weapons like a bonus to maneuvers (Lucern Hammer is a pertinent example) could give fighters an added boost and it would be fairly easy to implement.
Aelyrinth, I agree that fighters are designed to be warriors with a primary weapon specialization.
However, fighters don't exist in isolation and I was thinking that the freedom given to spell-casters pushes fighters to multitask.
The biggest complaint is that fighters don't have many options. One trick ponies who can only deal damage.
Strong contrast between the statistics of weapons would give reason for fighters to use a wide assortment of weapons. Just like how spell-casters use a wide assortment of spells.
Giving special characteristics to weapons like a bonus to maneuvers (Lucern Hammer is a pertinent example) could give fighters an added boost and it would be fairly easy to implement.
So by changing the entire weapon system, where, mind you, any character with proficiencies can pick up these weapons, how exactly are you giving FIGHTERS something unique and fun to work with? You can just take a barbarian and use the weapon in the exact same way as a fighter would... but essentially, better, due to certain rage powers.
The fighter class is the problem here, and it's much easier to fix than to redesign the entire combat system as many have suggested. Nothing short of a fighter fix/rewrite/expansion will cut it, however.
Aelyrinth, I agree that fighters are designed to be warriors with a primary weapon specialization.
So by changing the entire weapon system, where, mind you, any character with proficiencies can pick up these weapons, how exactly are you giving FIGHTERS something unique and fun to work with? You can just take a barbarian and use the weapon in the exact same way as a fighter would... but essentially, better, due to certain rage powers.
The fighter class is the problem here, and it's much easier to fix than to redesign the entire combat system as many have suggested. Nothing short of a fighter fix/rewrite/expansion will cut it, however.
Gulian you are probably right. Just an idea that could be easily implemented.A weapons table is easily consulted, sure beats customizing encounters
The problem with rewrites is the horrendous amount of work for the GM. I was hoping UC and ACG would fix things, unfortunately it's not the case.
Pathfinder Unchained promises a martial pool. ATM I'm fairly skeptical,that it will provide a sufficient fix based on Paizo's track record. Paizo has some interesting ideas and additions, yet the fighter needs an innovative overhaul.