Dwarves in historical folklore

[Tordrek Thunderhumper]

I got to thinking about the role of Dwarves in my campaign setting. They are the hardest race to do creative things with. They seem to always be axe-bearded drunken Scottish miners, and that's just what they do. In my setting, I plan for them to be curly bearded drunken Bavarian mountain men, because that concept just plain works, but it's still a bit too similar to what Dwarves usually are in fantasy. Interestingly enough, however, Dwarves are something that, it seems, most cultures have some version of in their folklore. Which gives me an idea. Given that myths about them are so universal, what if they were a race that exists worldwide, just like Humans (in my setting, demihuman races are usually from just one specific geographic region, and do not form their own nations), and that, as a result, has a wide variety of cultures and ethnicities? That right there gives more room for Dwarves to be interesting. We have those jolly drunken Bavarian mountain Dwarves, surly axe-beared Scandinavian miners who live underground, Anglo-Saxon, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish hill dwelling Halflings, salty Scottish fishermen and sailors who live along the northern coast and islands, and cosmopolitan French craftsmen, architects, and engineers with a penchant for designing things that are far more complicated than they need to be. That makes Dwarves start to get more interesting, and makes them into a much more versatile race.

What I need is some examples of Dwarves from non-European folklore, especially East Asian and Native American Dwarves. I can handle the European ones with the ideas given above, but I don't know my American and Asian folklore well enough to find information that could inspire me.

[Tin Foil Yamakah]

I like the idea of dwarven sailors/pirates. I had one back in 2E and had a blast. Yeah it is kind of the same idea as the "functioning alcoholic, all meat diet" Maybe have them captaining airships and such

[Orthos]

Yep. That's what they are in my group's setting - sailors, merchants, and pirates. They started out as a slave race to humans and halflings, then when their empires fell the Dwarves knew how to build and labor, so they made ships and claimed the seas as their own.

[MMCJawa]

The "drunken Scotsman" trope seems to have originated largely from gaming (and maybe literature?). Otherwise, yeah the greedy, bearded mining and craftsman dwarves of fantasy are not too different from folklore.

I will try to post a list of dwarf-like races later today from elsewhere in the world (I have to head to work soon). It is a pretty common trope, although in many cases different cultures have such different ideas behind their dwarves that in Pathfinder tradition they would probably be a different creature entirely.

FYI I tend to like to run them like stereotypical german engineers. I kind of hate the drunken Scotsman trope.

[Matthew Downie]

MMCJawa wrote:

The "drunken Scotsman" trope seems to have originated largely from gaming (and maybe literature?).

The 1950s/60s Poul Anderson story "Three Hearts and Three Lions" included a dwarf character with a Scottish accent. Gary Gygax was a big fan. The book is also said to have been the origin of the paladin, the Law/Chaos alignment axis, and regenerating trolls.

Gimli in the LotR films is possibly the best known dwarf, so his accent is the one most people will think of.

[thejeff]

Matthew Downie wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

The "drunken Scotsman" trope seems to have originated largely from gaming (and maybe literature?).

The 1950s/60s Poul Anderson story "Three Hearts and Three Lions" included a dwarf character with a Scottish accent. Gary Gygax was a big fan. The book is also said to have been the origin of the paladin, the Law/Chaos alignment axis, and regenerating trolls.

Gimli in the LotR films is possibly the best known dwarf, so his accent is the one most people will think of.

I am kind of curious if the "Scotsman" part of the dwarf trope really existed before the LotR films.

[MMCJawa]

I feel like there are elements of that trope in Warhammer before the LoTR movies, and at least talking to gamers it seems like the trope has been around for a long time...

[thejeff]

MMCJawa wrote:

I feel like there are elements of that trope in Warhammer before the LoTR movies, and at least talking to gamers it seems like the trope has been around for a long time...

It's one of those things that everyone knows has been around for ever, but I don't really remember it from all that far back.

I always thought of them as more Norse and vikingish, but underground instead of in boats, if that makes any sense.

Poking around a bit, it looks like it might have really taken off from some of the early D&D novels.

[Sissyl]

Rich miners that give gifts that are just as dangerous as if they actively try to hurt you, that want your women and are skilled enough in smithwork that they can barter it for sex with a goddess (!), that NEVER forget the merest slight, and have a thing for dangerous deals, chopping off heads and were originally created from Ymir's corpse worms, that's norse dwarves. On the other hand, the myths generally don't say much about beer, beards, armour, axes, clans, stamina, valour in combat, scottish accents, or any of the classic dwarven traits. They are short, usually seem to live in groups of under a dozen, and generally vile. It is very much an open question if they have women whatsoever.

[thejeff]

Well, none of the actual myths bear much resemblance to D&D dwarves.

I meant I thought of them like Norse or Vikings who were dwarves, not like the dwarves of Norse myth.

[RDM42]

I tend to make dwarves be sort of mystic/deeply spiritual long view sorts, the archivists and historians, the ones with the libraries - elves may LIVE longer, but they are too flighty to keep accurate records, etcetera. Known more for their priests than their warriors.

[Vod Canockers]

I never thought of Dwarves as drunk Scottish miners. Scandinavian or Germanic, but not Scottish.

[Dragonchess Player]

Mythologically, dwarves were initially heavily based on Norse/Germanic folklore.

The "drunken Scott" stereotype probably comes (at least partially) from people pigeonholing dwarves into a "Highlander" culture. Also, probably ignorance of the cultural differences between the Gaelic Scotts and the Norse Scotts (the Hebrides, Orkneys, and Shetland Islands, and some other areas).

Personally, I always envisioned traditional dwarven culture as closer to the Swiss.

[yellowdingo]

Hobbits of Indonesia look to use the dj phonetic (the podj-podj): these people are child sized (2-3ft), spiritual activities have included medicinal and narcotic plants, champions, sense of good and bad but not gods, tattoos.
Hunting Weapons include bows, nets.

Indonesian dwarf tribes are the Kate, the tjebol, and the orang katik (dwarf-men).

[Kirth Gersen]

In my home campaign, I made hill dwarves something like Sicilian-style bandits; they prey on humans and elves who pass through their "territory" without paying "tribute." The ones who emigrate to human and elven lands end up in ghettos like the flashback scenes with DeNiro in Godfather II.

[RDM42]

My dwarves in my Burning Lands world tend to be known more for being highly mystical lore-keepers, the true histories and deep knowledge of the world carved in stone in the deeps. Their priests, Druids and mages at least as well known as their warriors. Inspirational sources include Gnosticism and Kabbalah. They are also monotheistic dwarves, in that natively, as a whole, there is one actual deity in the Dwarvish realms, although some do pay respect to other gods as well. No particular animosity with elves. Actually related to both gnomes and halfling's to the point where half-breeds are plausible.

In the same world the elves, on the other hand, are more or less still the fading people trope, slowly committing suicide, who have even willingly destroyed much of their history and heritage. Most adventurers of them are from a long the rebellious few young that are born that don't WANT to fade away or completely lose their past.

[Te'Shen]

thejeff wrote:

I am kind of curious if the "Scotsman" part of the dwarf trope really existed before the LotR films.

Well... I've been gaming for around twenty years, and I've always kind of thought of dwarves as Scottish or German, with many of the drunken Scottsman stereotypes showing up in games throughout.

I don't know where it came from, but I am relatively certain that it predates the Lord of the Rings movies.

[Kirth Gersen]

thejeff wrote:

I am kind of curious if the "Scotsman" part of the dwarf trope really existed before the LotR films.

It's been around since the 80s, if not earlier. IIRC, there was a pregen dwarf PC for a module whose name was actually "Scottie."

[Jaelithe]

Norse-Germanic mythology and Tolkien were my only exposure to dwarves early on, so they color my impression of a "proper" one.

Until Jackson's Gimli spoke, I'd never in my life encountered the "Scottish dwarf" trope. Frankly, I found it irritating; it didn't work at all for me.

[RDM42]

RDM42 wrote:

My dwarves in my Burning Lands world tend to be known more for being highly mystical lore-keepers, the true histories and deep knowledge of the world carved in stone in the deeps. Their priests, Druids and mages at least as well known as their warriors. Inspirational sources include Gnosticism and Kabbalah. They are also monotheistic dwarves, in that natively, as a whole, there is one actual deity in the Dwarvish realms, although some do pay respect to other gods as well. No particular animosity with elves. Actually related to both gnomes and halfling's to the point where half-breeds are plausible.

In the same world the elves, on the other hand, are more or less still the fading people trope, slowly committing suicide, who have even willingly destroyed much of their history and heritage. Most adventurers of them are from a long the rebellious few young that are born that don't WANT to fade away or completely lose their past.

RDM42 wrote:

My dwarves in my Burning Lands world tend to be known more for being highly mystical lore-keepers, the true histories and deep knowledge of the world carved in stone in the deeps. Their priests, Druids and mages at least as well known as their warriors. Inspirational sources include Gnosticism and Kabbalah. They are also monotheistic dwarves, in that natively, as a whole, there is one actual deity in the Dwarvish realms, although some do pay respect to other gods as well. No particular animosity with elves. Actually related to both gnomes and halfling's to the point where half-breeds are plausible.

In the same world the elves, on the other hand, are more or less still the fading people trope, slowly committing suicide, who have even willingly destroyed much of their history and heritage. Most adventurers of them are from a long the rebellious few young that are born that don't WANT to fade away or completely lose their past.

Yes, performing thread necromancy and replying to myself, largely because I wanted to type some stuff out without a new thread, and because I kinda like seeing people's takes on is topic, although perhaps expanding it to alternate interpretations of other races as well?

Anyway, to further expand on Dwarvish psychology in that world, there is one large taboo among dwarves ... And that is falsely recording history, or destroying history. Burning down a library would be an almost unthinkable sin, which is one of the reasons their histories are carved in the hardest stone, and inlaid with the hardest metals and protected from erosion. Histories going back to the depths of memory and beyond going way into the deeps. And that is the source of the conflict that DOES exist between dwarves and elves to the degree it does ... They just have trouble understanding a people methodically destroying their past to 'forget' something they no longer want remembered.

They also loose greed and hatred, their darkvision is upgraded one step, they cain light sensitivity and a bonus feet is skill focus; knowledge history.

[Te'Shen]

RDM42 wrote:

Yes, performing thread necromancy and replying to myself. . . .

Sunday to Monday is not necromancy, especially in an area that has a little less traffic naturally.

As to your dwarves, I like it. If you wanted to incorporate a psychic subset of those dwarves with a tie to 'ancestral memory'... possibly using crystal containers to hold memories I would really dig it.

I remember a module for a Faerun game where some star elves had crystal memory containers and they weren't psionic. Or psychic. Just magical. I thought it was... odd.