Ahh shoot, wasn't thinking about weapon pluses. Though I think we can agree Disc. Focus would be pretty rocking for this guy.
In precedent Spirited charge+mounted charge is *3 dmg, but when you crit it's *4 dmg. I think that's a precedent for the rules of dmg multiplication and crit to work in the same way.
I do agree with your overall point that even Scarlet Throne has way high damage. The numbers from my post are just slightly lower than my mounted charge build ranger attacking a favored enemy...
Throne was meant to have high single target (predominantly) yields that basically had the effect of yelling "Submit or die!" and forcing them to choose both options at once. Fury and Blade have lots of spinny attacks and uber-charges that outdistance Throne by a wide enough to be uncomfortable margin.
-X
I dunno if damage comparable to mounted combat without the disadvantages is comfy to most people though.
Rising Zenith Strike vs. Dizzying Blow
9th level, no stance, +2 Greatsword, total 20 str
Rising Zenith Strike: (Weapon 9+ PA 9+ Str 7)*3=75
Dizzying Blow: 9+9+7+10*3.5=60
Dizzying Blow is one of the highest dice maneuvers I could find and it's likely to be both less accurate and less damaging than Rising Zenith strike. Discipline focus would add 6 damage to RZS and only 2 to Dizzying blow.
Damage multipliers are pretty gross man.
Now take a lance, a horse, Martial Charge and Spirited Charge for x6 damage. It's x6, not x12, right?
With Lance
Rising Zenith(3x)+mounted charge(2x)=3+1=4
+spirited charge= 3+1+1=5
+crit=3+1+1+2 (x3 crit range)=7
You can't have the pre-multiplier damage more than once is why mounted charge only added one instead of two.
Yeah, pretty gross and easy to obtain via Hussar. Also this build would still be viable when dismounted.
Maneuvers and mounts mix like Magnesium and Water.
I think the strongest fix is simply not to allow any bonus damage from a strike to combine with a mounted charge. That way the player could say, Dizzying strike a mounted charge and still get the save or daze, but not get the piles of bonus damage. You could Rising Zenith strike a mounted charge and still get the Sense Motive VS AC, but not the x3 damage.
The goal is that any damage from Piercing Thunder where mounts are involved, nothing is going to be doubled from that via the mount.
-X
Can other Disciplines be used while mounted? If so then Scarlet Throne and primal fury are top contenders for best mounted disciplines.
Can other Disciplines be used while mounted? If so then Scarlet Throne and primal fury are top contenders for best mounted disciplines.
Nothing strictly forbids them from being used while mounted, no.
-X
In that case Scarlet Throne on a Hussar will out damage every other discipline using Rising Zenith Strike and its variants since the base damage multiplication would stack.
Still believe that Strikes should not be useable with Mounted Charges in the same way that you can't use a strike while vital striking.
In that case Scarlet Throne on a Hussar will out damage every other discipline using Rising Zenith Strike and its variants since the base damage multiplication would stack.
Still believe that Strikes should not be useable with Mounted Charges in the same way that you can't use a strike while vital striking.
I didn't say it was intended, I just said nothing forbids it.
I ain't happy about it. Throne is the reason I ain't happy about it because of Rising Zenith and the like. Oye.
-X
To move to a different discussion.
Piercing Thunder! Do you envision it becoming more like Scarlet Throne, with a focus on damage, counters, and the occasional utility effect or more like Veiled Moon with less damaging maneuvers (less dice total) and more utility in how combat is approached?
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To move to a different discussion.
Piercing Thunder! Do you envision it becoming more like Scarlet Throne, with a focus on damage, counters, and the occasional utility effect or more like Veiled Moon with less damaging maneuvers (less dice total) and more utility in how combat is approached?
*Ssalarn waits with eager anticipation, hoping it's the latter*
Seriously though, mounted combat is already ludicrous when it comes to dealing damage; the feats are all jacked up for the amount of damage amplification they provide at the levels they come online. I could be perfectly content with a Piercing Thunder that gave little to no bonus damage, but stacked on tons of effects like forced movement, restricting enemy movement, pole-vaulting tricks, movement options for avoiding difficult terrain or jumping ludicrous distances, sticking a spear into your enemy and then having the mount kick it to potentially pin the target to another opponent, etc.
Pole vaulting tricks would make my day.
As an early option for low flying foes, as a counter for evasion, to do a death from above that avoids terrain problems or AoOs, as a CC by giving you a trip attack! The options are limitless lol. Maybe a stance to create a zone of "you cannot enter" like a terrain piece.
While mounted the dynasty warrior style sweeps (movement with attacks along your side and a trample under you) Maybe with some reduced damage since you would be hitting a very large area. Maybe a maneuver utilizing the thunderous sound of a horse charge to inflict fear conditions. A dragging attack as you latch onto someone and pull them unwillingly.
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Guess I'll repost it here since it didn't get any love on giantitp.
video
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Now that's some pole arm acrobatics!
Actually just thought of a maneuver.
You know that thing they do in movies where they twirl the polearm so fast that it blocks arrows like a wall? How about maneuver do set up a "wind wall" like that? I don't know what type you'd want it to be. As a counter it may be a bit strong until later because you could trick an archer into wasting arrows, but as a boost it would be a pro-active defense that you set up after your other actions.
Guess I'll repost it here since it didn't get any love on giantitp.
video
Kyoko was the best. Anything that helps me play an expy of her gets a thumbs up from me.
One more vote for changing Piercing Thunder so it's less damage and more acrobatics and effects. Can I suggest a maneuver like that one Matrix scene where he braces the staff on the ground and does a whirlwind attack?
I'm struggling to not remove all of the horse related things to it and just make a straight up spear/pole arm discipline. When I first wrote it it was very heavy on the horse and now that we're as far along as we are, I am so not interested in horse-based martial arts. I am far more for a crossbreed of Throne and Dragon with a spear. That sounds awesome.
-X
If any discipline can be used while mounted, all disciplines are mounted.[/koan]
Maybe for a different class or next book you can think of a discipline that is focused on working with mounts/animal companions/familiars. Mounting and dismounting, boosts that allow the AC/mount to do extra stuff, stances that give bonuses while mounted or when adjacent to to AC, strikes where instead of attacking you command your pet and it attack using your standard action or you both attack as part of your action...
Make a path of war Hunter.
Alternatively There could be a section of the book that's just mounted maneuvers for various disciplines? That way the Hussar has multiple discipline support and VM's idea, should you choose to pursue it, wouldn't override what's in PoW:E.
I think it's a bit late in the dev cycle to go back to the drawing board and create a new class/discipline that unique, but making multiple disciplines work better with mounts would be cool...
@ErrantX
DOOO EEET
Just make sure we get maneuvers that would be useful out of combat too. An acrobatic polearm/spear/staff discipline would be way too cool!
EX: A polevault maneuver that lets you go 20 ft into the air THEN make you high jump acrobatics check (The DCs on those are ridiculous, jumping 6 feat requires a check of 24). Sure in combat it can be used to death from above or nail a low flier, but it can also be used out of combat to awesomely jump a gate in a break in, to escape combat, to get onto a rooftop, and whatever else a creative play thinks of.
I think I'll just move the mounted maneuvers specifically off as a bonus set of maneuvers they can learn that's also attached to Thunder, or just leave Thunder with maneuver bloat.
-X
I wouldn't have a problem with either choice. I rarely play mounted characters, so having Piercing Thunder as an effective and unique discipline for a combatant on foot would be more my style. Especially since I've always been in love with the idea of playing a polearm master.
My two favorite real world weapons are the Guandao and the Boar Spear.
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A pole-arm/spear discipline sounds good to me! Could I clarify whether Piercing Thunder Style allows you to use a pole-arm that's two-handed (most, if not all of them) in one hand? Light weapons can only be wielded one handed and it would be advantageous for my imagination to build a character dual-wielding spears.
That's the interpretation I had of Piercing Thunder style too.
One of the main reasons I think Phalanx stance should be modified.
I think I'll just move the mounted maneuvers specifically off as a bonus set of maneuvers they can learn that's also attached to Thunder, or just leave Thunder with maneuver bloat.
-X
Put 'em in a sidebar?
Put 'em in a sidebar?I think I'll just move the mounted maneuvers specifically off as a bonus set of maneuvers they can learn that's also attached to Thunder, or just leave Thunder with maneuver bloat.
-X
Might be a big sidebar but we could do that.
-X
Is there a place where we can have the PoWE material so far in overview?
Is there a place where we can have the PoWE material so far in overview?
Well, we were trying to get them all in the first post of each thread we do an all the different websites, but a lot of websites (paizo site included) don't let you edit a post after a certain amount of time. So the easiest way would be for me to link you the GITP forum's thread, which we can keep updated without any real hassle. Here's a Link.
Also, an announcement: The ranger archetype has been added to the archetypes document.
A reworking has been performed on Riven Hourglass, as well adjustments to the 8th level stance and 9th level strike, and I've tried to fix Distorted Clock (1st level stance).
Thanks again to Forrestfire (from GitP) for his assistance!
-X
Temporal Wave has been adjusted to a smaller cone and I've combined the slow / nausea effect some.
Glad that I'm getting positive response on God of the Hourglass, but it's a little clunky I'm afraid. I may adjust its passive benefits.
No one seems terrible happy with the new 9, I'm gonna hit the drawing board again.
-X
Reposting again, as GITP is way too fast. If I use Beat the Clock with Extended Defense, do I get infinite standard actions?
I am very pleased to present to all of you our new ranged discipline: Tempest Gale!
Please let us know what you think!
Reposting again, as GITP is way too fast. If I use Beat the Clock with Extended Defense, do I get infinite standard actions?
This issue has been addressed.
I am very pleased to present to all of you our new ranged discipline: Tempest Gale!
Please let us know what you think!
I like that for the most part someone using this set of maneuvers wont be using it to full attack better and they have incentive to move and snap off strikes. I like how it makes LOOONG range sniping builds more viable.
Maybe just me, but I'd like to see Full Draw stance replace Str or Dex to damage on ranged attacks instead of being additive. As it is now it's an unnecessary buff to damage for one of the strongest damage styles in the game.
Additionally the eye of the storm stance is really, really good. No other 8th level stance is that potent of an attack and damage steroid while also mitigating almost every minus that could be applied to ranged attacks and giving you a defensive bonus in the form of a miss chance. Honestly this stance by itself blows primary offensive class features, such as favored enemy, Studied Target, ect out of the water.
Really digging what I've read of Tempest Gale, though I'm a little concerned that if you buy into it with Martial Training you could build an archer that adds Strength and Dexterity to damage by 5th level, when archery is already known for having some of the best damage potential in the game.
Either replacement (...maybe, Dex to hit and damage with archery alone gives me pause for concern), or something else entirely would probably be better.
@Wind Lance
If you make this attack at the end of a charge while using a thrown weapon, the attack instead deals triple damage.
You need the feat Charging Hurler to even attempt this. Maybe it should just be part of the strike?
Well, you can't replace a stat that isn't applied to a roll, so Full Draw Stance can only work by RAW as an addition (as you only add STR or DEX if you have certain feats/class features/equipment).
Eye of the Storm Stance is really good, and I'm OK with that. Some stuff may go, but it's a capstone stance for a sniper style discipline, huge buffs to accuracy and damage are gonna be a thing.
@Wind Lance
If you make this attack at the end of a charge while using a thrown weapon, the attack instead deals triple damage.You need the feat Charging Hurler to even attempt this. Maybe it should just be part of the strike?
Charging Hurler or Martial Charge, since this is a strike. It's just a bonus for going out of your way to pick up those feats, since thrown weapons tend to have smaller damage die and less support.
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Full Draw
That response doesn't help and it can be worked around with a simple "If you are already getting another stat to damage on your ranged attacks, such as strength or dexterity, this bonus does not apply while in this stance"
Eye of the Storm
All 8th level stances are really good, but mostly because they provide uses in ways that aren't "hey here's a buttload of atk, dmg, removal of mitigating factors, and a personal miss chance."
Broken Blade lets you ignore AoOs and have freedom of movement, Veiled Moon lets you be Incorporeal, ect.
Nobody has a problem with a stance being very good. I know I have a problem with it being too good and moving in a direction that makes little sense for the discipline. Up till that point the Discipline was focused on doing cool tricks and effects, but suddenly level 15 hits and suddenly you become the best archer full attacker in the game. The only thing out damaging you is a smiting Paladin. You move away from the tactical maneuver system and become a Paizo-esque turret.
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The huge buff to accuracy and damage is going to probably end up being used for full attacks that just utterly obliterate level appropriate targets with no chance of resistance.
We're seriously talking things like a +8 bonus to hit and damage for a 15th level warlord that started with 15 Cha. On top of everything else, nothing is going to survive that full attack. Here, I'll build a bare bones example.
We're working with 15 PB (it's the standard). A human, because it's basic.
Str 14, Dex 16 (from +2 racial), Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 15
+1 to Dex from level bumps, +2 to Cha from level bumps
+5 Inherents (either a candle of invocation many levels ago, or having a caster buddy)
+6 Dex and +6 Cha items with a +3 bow, and Boots of Speed (under half WBL spent on offense)
You have 13 feats. We'll spend a few of them on Point-blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, and Improved Critical
Means you're working with base stats netting
Str 19, Dex 28, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 28
BAB +15
+2 hit/damage from Battle Prowess
+3 hit/damage from bow
+8 hit from Dex
+4 damage from Str
+8 hit/damage from Cha
Total attack routine of
+35/+35/+35/+30/+25 (1d8+17/19-20x3) [double on first attack]
or
+31/+31/+31/+26/+21 (1d8+25/19-20x3) [double on first attack]
Against an average CR 15 AC (30), your DPR works out to
139.1
or
180.25 if you use Deadly Aim
And this isn't tricked out or using any maneuvers at all. If you used, say, Searing Break, your DPR would pop up to the 200s. And you are now heavily incentivized to just sit there full attacking instead of engaging with maneuvers. Which is really not what I want from Path of War. If I want a turret archer I can build that just fine using old content, I use Path of War because I want to do other stuff that's fun and useful instead of just firing so many telephone poles at my enemies they explode.
It's also weirdly at odds with the rest of the discipline, which focuses on lots of single shots that do cool stuff, but then this one stance makes it so your best offense is flurries of arrows.
+5 inherent bonuses to all stats at level 15 isn't "tricked out"?
It's easily done with obvious methods in the core rulebook and Bestiary 1. You could do some other stuff like bracer's of falcon's aim (which gets you +1 more to hit and saves a feat), luckstone, a more expensive bow (or in a party environment, a pearl of power for greater magic weapon with a +1 linked striking or +1 collision bow), Hammer the Gap (a small increase but damn you have a lot of feats), Weapon Focus (likewise)... there is more that you could do if you wanted to push DPR to the hilt.
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Even without inherent, it's still pretty F'd up.
Insain Dragoon - I think that's an excellent idea and welcome anyone interested in writing it up. :)
In response to suggesting a Marksman Archetype
My brother wrote up a Marksman archetype called the Lightray Seeker! (Renamed War Bolt for unknown reasons) and wanted to have it looked at a little by PoW fans before officially submitting it for review to Prince.
Updates have been made to Tempest Gale.
I like a lot of the changes (and Initiator Mod to damage definitely feels at home on an 8th level stance with some other nice things to make it feel appropriately awesome), but I'm a little concerned by Initiator Mod to damage being left in a 3rd level stance. That still leaves it available from Martial Training III for Dex to Damage, which is just one more feat than before (and you're getting plenty of other nice things from those feats). Not sure if that's a real issue (that's expensive, feat wise) but the prospect of non-initiators that have more passive in-class methods of boosting damage output getting access to it makes my skin crawl.
Also, it seems like a lot of the maneuvers that deal direct damage are a bit on the weak side. You're giving up making archery full attacks for single shots, I get the sense they could stand to be a little more impressive.