Weapons of the Chosen from warpaths should probably be renamed, as there is Weapon of the Chosen feat line in ACG.
Golden Lion Command doesn't have diplomacy prerequisite.
We are endeavoring to go through and fix some of the issues you guys have brought up with our new feats (especially style feats). In particular, Riven Hourglass Rewind, we have a proposed fix that we'd like your opinion on:
Riven Hourglass Rewind [Style]
You are able to reverse the flow of temporality to recover from debilitating effects for a short time
Prerequisites: Riven Hourglass Style, Autohypnosis 7 ranks
Benefit: You can expend a readied counter maneuver as an immediate action to suppress one ongoing condition affecting you for 1 minute (see conditions in the game mastering section). This only suppresses conditions which have a limited duration (those expressed in rounds/minutes/etc.), and does not end the condition if it is suppressed for longer than the duration of the condition. Once Riven Hourglass Rewind's suppression effect ends, the condition resumes its effects as normal.So, pick it apart boys and girls!
I like it. Quite strong but in a way that makes the game more enjoyable.
what options exist for, specifically, Fighter, Monk, and Rogue classes that wanna get down with some of this material?
i feel like they deserves special attention.
This is conjecture, but I am pretty sure some of them are getting archetypes.
I personally would love to see some Stalker talents becomes ninja/rogue talents, even if the rogue gets no archetype.
Every class can take the Martial Training feat line (A very nice feat line since it gives you class skills and maneuvers for those fighters that want diplomacy without spending a trait)
In general, the feat section of PoW1 is open to everyone. Deadly Agility, Martial Power, Greater Unarmed Strike (for non monks), Richochet Weapon, Serene Stride, and Tactical Rush are all very strong feats for these classes. Only Tactical Rush requires you to know at least one maneuver, so essentially Martial Training 1 is its prerequisite.
PoW2 brings more to the table in the feats department. I know that there is a feat that lets you dual weild one-handed weapons as if they were light while also letting strength count as dexterity for qualifying for dual wield feats.
what options exist for, specifically, Fighter, Monk, and Rogue classes that wanna get down with some of this material?
i feel like they deserves special attention.
There are archetypes planned for all three of these classes that are in varying states of completeness. As Adam B. mentioned, there is also the Martial Training line of feats, and a lot of the feats in both PoW an PoW:E are useable without an initiator level. I recommend checking them out if you've got the time!
The way an initiator class recovers a maneuver is very central to how the class functions both mechanically and thematically. ex:
Fighter rolls a 20 on an attack roll: regains a maneuver!
Monk rolls a 20 on a saving throw: regains a maneuver!
Rogue rolls a 20 on a skill check: regains a maneuver!
Fighter is ok but the other 2 are a bit... Umm... Weak? Maybe... What I mean is that the fighter at level 20 can be making up to 4 attacks a round, they make 2 from level 6 on ward. Where as the other class's will not be making their rolls so often, unless they have some special build (making it harder to pick up maneuvers) or the an odd enemy.
Is it even possible to make 4 skill checks in a round? Sure the monk just needs a bunch of doods fire balling him or something, but I don't know if you can make more than 2 skill checks.
The way an initiator class recovers a maneuver is very central to how the class functions both mechanically and thematically. ex:
Fighter rolls a 20 on an attack roll: regains a maneuver!
Monk rolls a 20 on a saving throw: regains a maneuver!
Rogue rolls a 20 on a skill check: regains a maneuver!
I can guarantee you these aren't happening. Recovering maneuvers is an ACTIVE process, not a passive one. We don't leave maneuver recovery to chance, as it takes away from player agency.
All classes will have a "standard action: recover one maneuver" function and usually a full round action recovery that lets them recover multiple maneuvers.
The way an initiator class recovers a maneuver is very central to how the class functions both mechanically and thematically. ex:
Fighter rolls a 20 on an attack roll: regains a maneuver!
Monk rolls a 20 on a saving throw: regains a maneuver!
Rogue rolls a 20 on a skill check: regains a maneuver!I can guarantee you these aren't happening. Recovering maneuvers is an ACTIVE process, not a passive one. We don't leave maneuver recovery to chance, as it takes away from player agency.
All classes will have a "standard action: recover one maneuver" function and usually a full round action recovery that lets them recover multiple maneuvers.
Harbinger is about as passive as I expect maneuver recovery to get; they create a trigger that they can then pull, with effort.
good point.
still it'd be cool if, outside of archetypes, there was a way for a vanilla fighter/monk/rogue to pick up pieces of the subsystem via feats (or talents?) that offered unique alternatives to standardized recovery methods.
because recovery is where it's at.
Well, if you want a unique special snowflake recovery mechanic you're going to have to grab an archetype. That's kind of how the system's built.
If you're just using the Martial Training feats... well those already come with a recovery mechanic pre-baked in.
Question: Do counterattacks count as attacks of opportunity? if so, then the Mithral Current discipline and the Seize the Opportunity feats have some impressive synergy.
As a follow up,I assume that the Bushi Stalker loses access to Improved Blending, since they lose access to the base ability. I think this swap unfairly hurts the stalker, seeing as the give up blending and improved blending for Mixed Combat, which is an almost entirely irrelevant feat for them regardless (Ready the Blade stance makes it useless at 1st level, Mithral Current Style quickly makes it irrelevant after that.) The only thing I can see it giving them is the ability to make a ranged attack without provoking, but only against a melee target. Am I missing something? Or was this intentionally a weak trade to maintain balance?
Question: Do counterattacks count as attacks of opportunity? if so, then the Mithral Current discipline and the Seize the Opportunity feats have some impressive synergy.
As a follow up,I assume that the Bushi Stalker loses access to Improved Blending, since they lose access to the base ability. I think this swap unfairly hurts the stalker, seeing as the give up blending and improved blending for Mixed Combat, which is an almost entirely irrelevant feat for them regardless (Ready the Blade stance makes it useless at 1st level, Mithral Current Style quickly makes it irrelevant after that.) The only thing I can see it giving them is the ability to make a ranged attack without provoking, but only against a melee target. Am I missing something? Or was this intentionally a weak trade to maintain balance?
For right now I believe counterattacks are considered AoOs. That may change.
The Bushi Stalker does lose Improved Blending, as its just part of the basic blending ability in the text.
Yes, Ready the Blade can be used similarly to Mixed Combat, but you really don't want to be stuck in a first level stance for your entire career. There are a lot of other stances out there and Mixed Combat allows the Bushi to do its thing without being forced into a particular stance. It isn't the best trade, but its a necessary one in order to maintain the freedom and versatility of the PoW system.
I'd prefer that counterattacks not be AoOs. To me, that would make the Seize the Opportunity line too powerful. There are already many effects in PoW to make attacks of opportunity, especially inside Golden Lion and with the Warder.
Counterattacks aren't called out in the system chapter as being attacks of opportunity (nor do they use up any of your attacks of opportunity for the round). There might be some counters that specifically declare themselves attacks of opportunity (I don't know, and I don't want to look through them all right now), but there are definitely ones that don't do that, like Bloody Riposte.
I'll check with the rest of the team on that, it seems like the kind of thing that needs clarification at least.
There's discussion on altering the Seize the Opportunity feat line going on. Its got some issues with other projects we're working on and we want to make sure to smooth those out before we publish PoW:E.
Yeah, I am sure at least one person pointed out its interaction with the Wrath Daevic already. I hope it gets handled well, because I love both Wrath Daevics and that feat line. I just personally wouldn't want them stacking.
I'm inclined to suggest that any necessary changes should be made to the individual use case where it's a problem (Wrath Daevics, apparently?) as opposed to the feats that play nice with everything else.
Also, I lied. I ended up checking; none of the disciplines from the first PoW have counters that are counted as attacks of opportunity. Counterattacks are never AoOs.
They are immediate actions, so I don't see why they'd be confused for AoOs, which are there own action category.
It's like asking if taking a boost restricts you from taking a free action.
Attacks made as part of a counter are not attacks of opportunity, do not consume AoO uses/round and are not modified by things that modify attacks of opportunity unless they also explicitly modify counters.
To clarify, the specific situation I'm asking about is not part of a counter.
Mithral Lightning Stance
Discipline: Mithral Current (Stance) Level: 8
Prerequisites: 3 Mithral Current Maneuvers known
Initiating Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: you
Duration: stance
With blinding movements and rapid, graceful strikes, the masters of the Mithral Current are able to travel across the battlefield and bring death to any who would try to stop them. While in this stance, the disciple gains a +10 ft. enhancement bonus to speed, a +6 dodge bonus to AC vs. Attacks of opportunity, and can make a free counterattack against any enemy that makes an attack of opportunity against the disciple. In addition, all counterattacks made by the disciple while in this stance deal +3d6 damage. The Disciple treats their weapon as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction and vulnerabilities while in this stance.
So, the question isn't if a counter is an AoO, but the 'counterattack' given by the stance. I can see either being useful, as one allows as many counters as you have the opportunity to make, while the other is limited by AoOs, but benefits from Seize the Opportunity. I mostly wanted to make sure I had the interpretation right before I start trying to test it out.
Either way, thank you for taking the time to respond, and so quickly!
It doesn't say it's an attack of opportunity, so it isn't.
It could use the wording cleared up though, since "counterattack" is not a defined term.
What kind of weapons can we hope to see?
Hopefully something to replace shuriken perhaps.
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So I wrote a thing...
It's a thing! A well thought out thing, and a well worded argument. The "bag of cats" thing never sat right with me but I understand why some people use it as a base point to compare mechanics.
I understand why the argument is still made, but as that harbinger illustrated, it is not always a valid argument. Funny enough, an enemy harbinger could do hilarious stuff to the kitten using harbinger. There are maneuvers that let you attack multiple targets (primal fury has a lot) so a enemy harbinger could claim the kittens and use them for recovery without giving up anything.
Where the bag of cats is most ridiculous is when people use it to extend "combat effects" like fast healing on Inquisitors. However people who take those arguments seriously are just too silly.
So I wrote a thing...It's a thing! A well thought out thing, and a well worded argument. The "bag of cats" thing never sat right with me but I understand why some people use it as a base point to compare mechanics.
The thing with bag-of-cats problems is they also illustrate, to an extent, problems or advantages a feature or item might have in fighting swarm-style encounters. Though I (clearly) don't feel it's a problem as often as it's made out to be, preventing severe bag-of-cats abuses is also a point of professional pride. There's no need to remake Greater Consumptive Field, aye?
You should not talk about a "thing" just after I watch the latest season of Korra... I kept expecting one of your examples to involve Zhu li.
"Do the thing!"
Well it was a good thing you wrote. I shell try to keep it in mind if I'm ever making something where its relevant.
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Anyway I came here to ask a question. What Domains would you switch out for warpaths?
More info (than what you likely need to know) as to why Im asking: I'm DMing a game. Due to how it came about and that I'm using it to test out a few house rules its a little broken. So I'm not overly worried about things being perfect at this point. I have 2 players: Bushi Zweihander Sentinel Warder. And a paladin. Both are new to the game. When the paladin asked where the gods were, I drew a blank and and then failed my search checks in the CRB for couple of min. So I grabbed my copy of Deities and Demigods and told them to pick the pantheon they wanted to use. They went with the Olympian Pantheon and the paladin follows Athena.
It doesn’t make sense for me that you would get to pick your spells if your a divine caster, so I have decided as a house rule that they get all of their gods domain spells instead of making their own list (they still get the same number of domain powers if any). This goes for pallys too at this point. As part of the house rules is a spell point system they now have spontaneous casting so that should help make up for it.
To clarify, the specific situation I'm asking about is not part of a counter.
Mithral Lightning Stance
Discipline: Mithral Current (Stance) Level: 8
Prerequisites: 3 Mithral Current Maneuvers known
Initiating Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: you
Duration: stance
With blinding movements and rapid, graceful strikes, the masters of the Mithral Current are able to travel across the battlefield and bring death to any who would try to stop them. While in this stance, the disciple gains a +10 ft. enhancement bonus to speed, a +6 dodge bonus to AC vs. Attacks of opportunity, and can make a free counterattack against any enemy that makes an attack of opportunity against the disciple. In addition, all counterattacks made by the disciple while in this stance deal +3d6 damage. The Disciple treats their weapon as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction and vulnerabilities while in this stance.
So, the question isn't if a counter is an AoO, but the 'counterattack' given by the stance. I can see either being useful, as one allows as many counters as you have the opportunity to make, while the other is limited by AoOs, but benefits from Seize the Opportunity. I mostly wanted to make sure I had the interpretation right before I start trying to test it out.
Either way, thank you for taking the time to respond, and so quickly!
To answer your question, they're counterattacks just like attacks made with counter maneuvers are. They are not AoOs. I got the idea from Panther Style's Retaliatory Unarmed Strikes, but co-opted language we were already using.
More info (than what you likely need to know) as to why Im asking: I'm DMing a game. Due to how it came about and that I'm using it to test out a few house rules its a little broken. So I'm not overly worried about things being perfect at this point. I have 2 players: Bushi Zweihander Sentinel Warder. And a paladin. Both are new to the game. When the paladin asked where the gods were, I drew a blank and and then failed my search checks in the CRB for couple of min. So I grabbed my copy of Deities and Demigods and told them to pick the pantheon they wanted to use. They went with the Olympian Pantheon and the paladin follows Athena.
It doesn’t make sense for me that you would get to pick your spells if your a divine caster, so I have decided as a house rule that they get all of their gods domain spells instead of making their own list (they still get the same number of domain powers if any). This goes for pallys too at this point. As part of the house rules is a spell point system they now have spontaneous casting so that should help make up for it.
First, let me say hurray for Bushi Zweihander Sentinels. Definitely seems to be the most popular setup, which makes sense.
Second, way to cut the legs out from under the divine casters. Forced spontaneous spellcasting from a list of spells that's shorter than the RAW paladin and ranger list... EW. Unless I'm mistaken about Deities and Demigods, each god only has 5 domains, and so a full list of spells from all the god's domains would only contain 45 spells, less than the number of FIRST LEVEL PALADIN SPELLS in the PFSRD. I try not to be critical but that just sounds awful.
But to answer your question:
Anyway I came here to ask a question. What Domains would you switch out for warpaths?
In general, Domains which overlap a lot with spells I have already on my spell list. Healing would get the axe pretty quickly, as would most of the Alignment Domains.
As for your specific game, I'd seriously consider not trading away a single domain for fear of it shorting my already neutered spell list.
Even more to the point, domain spells are designed to be an add-on to the standard cleric list, not the basis for a spell list. More to the point, the paladin list is a very good list, and a large part of the Paladin's power. Nerfing the paladin might make sense in a lower baseline campaign, but if the other melee is a Zweihander Sentinel Warder, well....
So I wrote a thing...
Jade, that was very well done. I've always enjoyed this sort of article that demonstrates understanding of the fundamentals of an issue, breaking down mechanics while discarding popular - but wrong - memes. Jeremy's Why Psionics Is Not Overpowered is good company to be amongst. Most of SKR's mechanics breakdowns the same. So... nice.
Also, I look forward to strapping kittens to a harbinger's greatclub to combine the killing blow with still fighting enemies.
I jest, I jest. Cheese is always cheese.
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Heh, I can already picture Gareth screaming in frustration because Anguish compared him to SKR.
Heh, I can already picture Gareth screaming in frustration because Anguish compared him to SKR.
You know, nobody should ever be frustrated when compared to a person with 20+ years of mechanical chops in this game. Especially one who very, very clearly demonstrated a thorough grasp of not only the rules as they were written by why they were written that way. I don't expect everyone to agree with SKR or to enjoy the way he delivered his knowledge but it's kind of beyond debate that he fundamentally knows his stuff. Which is... awesome.
What kind of weapons can we hope to see?
Hopefully something to replace shuriken perhaps.
There are not currently plans to add new mundane weapons.
As far as the comparisons to other articles go, I'm flattered. It was my first attempt at a professional article (as opposed to, say, a gigantic and maximally bitter forum rant) and I'm glad I seem to have done well.
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To answer some previous questions and some new concerns:
- An Aegis archetype is in the work, though we may choose to instead do it as armor customizations. It's in the air.
- Antipaladin will not be getting an archetype. No, not even then.
- Gunslinger is not currently slated for an archetype; the boss wants to do a Thing with Gunslinger down the line that'll include specialized support, which is about all the detail I can give at the moment.
- Archetype work proceeds rather well and I hope to soon be able to release the doc once we've got them all in one doc and not in a million separate documents. They are, however, being delayed while I'm visiting my kids (they say hi!) and thus not able to finish up Bard and Magus.
- Traditions doc is likewise almost done and only in need of Traditions for Golden Lion, Thrashing Dragon, and Broken Blade, delayed for same reason as above.
Design Manager
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I'm inclined to suggest that any necessary changes should be made to the individual use case where it's a problem (Wrath Daevics, apparently?) as opposed to the feats that play nice with everything else.
The issue is that the feats don't play nice with everything else. The Wrath Daevic just happened to be a build that showcased the issues pretty prominently. As it is, the Seize the Oportunity line is most effective with the builds that need it least, namely characters with large damage die and/or big static damage attacks like Saurian Shamans, half-giant Aegis', or Two-Handed Fighters, and least helpful for the classes it's aimed at, namely high DEX builds who traditionally have low damage die and smaller static damage modifiers.
There's also the base issue of this potentially doubling or even quadrupling a character's DPR for a pretty negligible cost. A STR Medium (from Occult Adventures) can easily threaten in a 30 foot radius for loads of damage - this puts their DPR at ridiculous levels. The Bloodrager can also create huge threatened areas with massive attacks, to the same result. The feats turn already powerful builds into retardedly powerful builds, while leaving the other guys in essentially the same place on the comparative scale.
Maybe I'm missing something, but nothing about the feat chain seems like it's aimed at low damage dice Dex fighters. They seem like they're entirely intended for big weapon characters that are trying to control an area, like Zweihander Sentinels and reach fighters. People that want to have really damaging AoOs, and threaten large areas of space, but don't get them since AoOs get worse and worse relative to attacks at higher levels. Not characters that only threaten five feet and are unlikely to even get to make AoOs.
Also, excuse me, what? Increasing DPR? Having extremely damaging AoOs is a threat. You limit your enemies' options at risk of punishment. Saying Seize the Opportunity provides a really high boost to DPR is like saying sentry guns in TF2 are the best handheld weapons. They control space and are reliant on being triggered to do anything.
If what concerns you is abuse of damage die stacking (stances, half giants, impact, etc.- I don't feel it's a problem personally but lots of dice can be scary) you could probably eliminate that while leaving the feats mostly intact if the third one gave tripled modifiers only instead of also tripling damage dice. That makes it hurt a lot less when someone swings a 12d6 weapon around, but has a fairly trivial impact on someone swinging a 1d8 longsword (someone swinging for 3d8+30 and someone swinging for 2d8+30 are dealing almost the same amount of damage).
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Maybe I'm missing something, but nothing about the feat chain seems like it's aimed at low damage dice Dex fighters. They seem like they're entirely intended for big weapon characters that are trying to control an area, like Zweihander Sentinels and reach fighters. People that want to have really damaging AoOs, and threaten large areas of space, but don't get them since AoOs get worse and worse relative to attacks at higher levels. Not characters that only threaten five feet and are unlikely to even get to make AoOs.
Also, excuse me, what? Increasing DPR? Having extremely damaging AoOs is a threat. You limit your enemies' options at risk of punishment. Saying Seize the Opportunity provides a really high boost to DPR is like saying sentry guns in TF2 are the best handheld weapons. They control space and are reliant on being triggered to do anything.
When a single AoO is stronger than a level equivalent standard action, yeah, you've increased DPR. It's not even a question, it's basic math. You have to hit something at least once for your StO line to be recognized as a threat, and odds are good that one hit kills whatever you were swinging at since it's equivalent to an extra freaking full attack.
And as I mentioned, there are lots of builds that can threaten huge swaths of space. In some cases this means the only way for the enemy to avoid the threatened area is to avoid the entire freaking map. I went through my collection of Paizo modules and APs and managed to go through 4 books before I found an encounter map that couldn't be almost entirely covered by a character with 30' foot reach.The whole "it's only defensive because the enemy can choose not to do things that provoke" falls apart in other areas as well; during a relatively recent playthrough of Ruby Phoenix Tournament our ninjas handily won the DPR olympics by using his invisibility trick to place himself I'm areas of the battlefield where multiple enemies were likely to provoke if they tried anything and then destroying them with SA enhanced AoO's.
Seize the Opportunity is just too overpowered a feat line that doesn't play nice with a huge chunk of the materials it's intended to support, so it really needs to be re-evaluated and fixed.
You're talking about a subset of martial builds that can create lockdown and space control to a degree casters have been able to for a long time.
That's a good thing.
And attacks of opportunity aren't the all encompassing threat you think they are. Having any form of cover (even soft cover like another creature in-between you and the attacker) means attacks of opportunity can't be taken against you.
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.
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And there are feats, spells, and other ways to get around that. And it is not a level of control casters have had; it's more damage than anyone not taking advantage of the most egregious loopholes or misreading of the rules is capable of putting out at the levels this becomes available. Basic math makes it clear that dealing damage has never been the dividing line between martials and casters; trying to close that disparity by piling on more damage is a fool's errand, and frankly one that's been pursued far too often.
If you want to give martials equivalent abilities, something like Dirty Trick Master is more in line; give them things to do other than dealing damage, like inflicting status effects, new uses for skills and maneuvers, etc.
I'm not even talking about solving problems by dealing more damage. I'm talking about control and lockdown. Having the threat of taking a lot of damage from taking certain actions: a deterrent. Which is a different method of producing the same sorts of control casters do, but with more interesting counterplay than "I saved" or "I didn't save".
Don't put words in my mouth.
Aside, would you care to address your claim about the feats being intended for Dex based attackers? You seem to have dropped that point, and I'm still curious about what you meant.
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Or someone creates a build that produces AoOs for them. Outflank, Broken Wing Gambit, large reach, invisible turreting, ect.
My hunter and animal companion using Broken Wing Gambit (if you attack me, you provoke from my friend), Paired oppurtunist (When I AoO my friend AoOs too), Outflank (when I crit, you AoO) is easily capable of manufacturing AoOs often during my turn and the enemies turn.
AoOs doing as much as a mounted lance charge is a problem. Not because of martial caster disparity, but because of breaking the internal math of the game.
Don't try to turn this issue into something that it's not.
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1) It's not a just a threat; there's numerous ways for it to be easily acted upon.
2) If the threat is "you take so much damage you die" you are by definition solving problems by dealing more damage.
3) There's nothing more interesting about "You die or you stay out of my part of the map" than there is with "I saved" or "I didn't save". In fact, it's notably less interesting since the risk/reward formula is so linear.
4) Not sure why you think I'm putting words in your mouth.
5) Recall that I write for this company as well and have worked on both Path of War projects; I talk to the other authors and know why stuff is done and how things get to where they are. The feats as they exist benefit classes who don't need it while doing too little for those who do.
Basically, the feats as they are don't work, because they're currently fulfilling a need that doesn't exist. They're a mess, they do things the wrong way, and this is borne out in playtest, theorycraft, and overlay with the system the materials are designed to support. I appreciate that your view is different, but I KNOW that inclusion of these feats in their current form is a ticket to another crappy review from the respected reviewers who help ensure that the highest quality products are recognized. I KNOW that the feats as they are will ruin more games than they enhance.
If the goal/need these feats are going to meet is providing more control options, than we need to address that need without creating a damage imbalance that only a skilled GM can compensate for. If a GM's choices are either learn how to up his game to accommodate options that are vastly more powerful than the materials he's used to or simply not allow those materials, they're generally going to go for the latter. So we need to take these back to the drawing board and find a way to accomplish the intended goal, whether that be increasing control options for heavy tanks or allowing finesse warriors to get more out of their options, in a way that doesn't involve allowing characters to create giant move and die radii that only threaten their enemies.
1) Valid point. Perhaps what triggers it should be restricted to actions targets take. My group has pretty much never used teamwork feats (and the only people that would have liked the hunter would rather be druids or rangers), so I forgot about them.
2) The threat is not "take so much damage you die". It's "an attack is made (which, like any attack, might miss) that deals more significant damage". If something dies to one hit from one of these AoOs, it was probably a mook, and that probably should have happened.
3) There's much more value in limiting what actions can be taken in an area without a chance of punishment than creating an effect that either cripples or does not cripple each character in the area, regardless of play.
In the first case, characters being threatened have to assess the value of punished actions (movement, ranged attacks) versus unpunished actions (supernatural/extraordinary/swift action abilities, five foot steps, withdrawal from the edge of the threat zone or into an area with cover) and actions with an extra chance of failure (movement with Acrobatics, casting with a concentration check).
4) You said I was insisting the solution to caster superiority was give more damage to martials, when I wasn't. That's the very definition of putting words in someone's mouth, dude.
5) I can't respond to vague claims like "they're a mess, they do things the wrong way", and what you insist you know in all capitals. I KNOW (capital letters) that using the feats on my Warder has made her contribute a lot more and the other players have been happy about that, but it's anecdotal, unprovable, dependent on personal circumstances, and I'm not going to use it to prove a point.
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I don't think we're going to get anywhere constructive with this so I'm going to make my final points and then call it a night.
Spirited Charge is a primary component of the most powerful single target attacks in the game, easily scalable over 1000 points of damage by end game. Greater Sieze the Opportunity enables more damage in a single hit than Spirited Charge.
There are, as Insain Dragoon pointed out, multiple ways to trigger AoO on command, without the enemy making any mistakes. I also have a Hunter build whose schtick is AoO farming, and there are lots of ways other than the Hunter to do it.
The feats as they currently stand open the door for someone pulling off multiple attacks a round that are stronger than a Spirited Charge attack, all at their full BAB. That alone is worth taking these back to the drawing board.
I'm sorry if you felt like I was putting words in your mouth. But you stated that "You're talking about a subset of martial builds that can create lockdown and space control to a degree casters have been able to for a long time." How are they creating that space? By threatening a huge amount of damage. So, even if it's not how you viewed it, that argument is an argument for fixing martials with more damage, which is not the solution. If anything, a feat that allowed you to initiate a Bull Rush, or a Dirty Trick, on a successful AoO is what we should be looking for. I am 100% in agreement that martials need more control options. I told Prince that very thing about a week ago and put as much in all of my notes for the Piercing Lance discipline. There's better ways to do it than a mechanic that breaks every damage assumption of the game and is rife for abuse.
I would love to see someone do over 1000 points of damage on average with a spirited charge attack. I don't think that's actually possible, and I suspect you're remembering numbers from AM BARBARIAN's ragelancepounce, which is a hasted full attack (and it's dubious whether you'd actually gain the charge damage on all of the hits).
And the most powerful single target attacks in the game come from druid/barbrian multiclass characters with strongjaw, Greater Vital Strike, and Furious Finish. Not lance charges, not even close. And Seize the Opportunity attacks don't even do as much damage for them as Greater Vital Strike.
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And the most powerful single target attacks in the game come from druid/barbrian
Martial Charge, Devastating Momentum and Descending Sunset Strike would like a word with them. Also works with (Greater) Psionic Weapon and deep crystal weapons. And if you happen to be in Iron Hide Stance, that's, uh, x12 STR to damage.
That being said, have you ever felt like your initiator is an overkill? I've built few of them recently and I'm liking utility disciplines like Golden Lion and Veiled Moon over straight damage ones more and more.
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Design Manager
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I would love to see someone do over 1000 points of damage on average with a spirited charge attack.
For someone who doesn't like it when they think someone else is putting words in their mouth....
C.U. Barnaby, a Completely Unoptimized 20th level cavalier, deals 1d8+53+2d6 on a regular attack (+20 challenge, +18 PA, +10 STR, +5 enhancement bonus, +2d6 Holy) with his +5 keen holy lance. On a Spirited Charge crit, that's 7d8 + 371 + 2d6, so max 439, minimum 381. With Seize the Opportunity, Greater he deals 3d8 + 159 + 6d6, max 219, min 168. So C.U. Barnaby can flat out kill any same CR creature with one crit, or drop a tarrasque with a crit and an AoO. This alone is going to be problematic for some groups, but what happens when we start applying optimization?
Impact weapon - up to 28 additional damage on the charge, 12 extra damage on the AoO.
Half-Giant race - up to 42 extra damage on the charge, 18 extra damage on the AoO.
Order of the Sword - up to 84 extra damage on the charge, 36 extra damage on Sieze the Opportunity.
We've still got +1 worth of enhancement bonuses to spend, lets add vicious for up to 12 extra damage on the charge, 36 extra damage on the AoO.
I assumed a 24 STR for this character, but what if I was really min/maxing this thing? 18 base + 2 racial + 6 enhancement + 4 level + 4 inherent gets us up to 34 (or +12), bump to 18 effective for two-hand bonus nets me up to an additional 56 damage on the charge, 24 on Seize the Opportunity.
We're already at up to 661 for the charge and 345 for Seize the Opportunity, and I haven't even gotten into ioun stones, permanent size increases, the Mammoth Rider PrC, party buffs, teamwork chains, Pummeling Style abuses for non-lance wielders, multi-classing Aegis, Mounted Skirmisher, Pounce charging Barbarians (they got FAQ'd back in), mounted Inquisitors, mounted Paladins, mounted Hunters or Rangers, etc.
The issue is that a single Seize the Opportunity attack is nearly enough to drop a same CR dragon. With party buffs or a little more optimization, it is enough. And that's too much.
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The Seize the Opportunity line of feats has been condensed into one feat, and given slightly more utility:
Seize the Opportunity [Combat]
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, BAB +1
Benefit: When you make an attack of opportunity, you can use an attack action (such as vital strike) or combat maneuver (such as a bull rush, disarm or dirty trick) in place of an attack of opportunity.