What are your favorite aspects of the fantasy genre? I personally like a book that feels like D&D. What have you liked in fantasy books or would like to see?
I would love to see one with an effective and skilled heroine, who isn't defined by her relationship to men.
Basically, like the vast majority of male characters.
I want a good weird west novel.
idk, I can't remember the last time I saw a novel where a male protagonist wasn't utterly defined by his relationship with a female.I would love to see one with an effective and skilled heroine, who isn't defined by her relationship to men.
Basically, like the vast majority of male characters.
I'm not sure that I'd consider comics fantasy novels, let alone superhero movies as novels, but if so... who's the woman that defines Batman? Who's the woman that defines Superman? Both have women in their lives, but more often incidentally. If we're going off the rails, let's look at a fantasy story set in space: Star Wars. Who's the woman that defines Luke? He interacts with Leia, but can hardly be said to be defined by her.
More on topic, with a fantasy novel, the big one that's always thrown around in fantasy rpg circles: LotR. Aragorn is the only character that could remotely be said to be defined by the women in his life. The ostensible main character, Frodo, has very little involvement with women whatsoever. Even Sam, the primary supporting hero, only interacts with a woman (as a victory prize) at the end.
It seems to me that female characters aren't allowed that degree of independent development in most novels. Inevitably it seems as though there's a man they're on the run from/being stalked by/are the object of affection from/have secret feelings for/have a shared past with, and generally these men save the female character from capture/certain doom/loneliness/making a big mistake/a bad relationship/general peril/the shadows of their past/themselves. Often there's ham-handed symbolism or metaphor for how the man helps her be complete, or her better self. Yes, you can see some of those same tropes at play with a female character towards a male main, but they're present for most of the female characters I've seen, not just some.
All I want is a female character who can handle things herself, doesn't need a man to save her, and can develop as her own character.
I would love to see one with an effective and skilled heroine, who isn't defined by her relationship to men.
Basically, like the vast majority of male characters.
It seems to me that female characters aren't allowed that degree of independent development in most novels.Who's not allowing it, Scythia? Is it a conspiracy amongst the male-dominated Editors-in-Chief? Are female authors somehow prevented from writing strong women such as you desire and envision?
Are you seriously complaining that there aren't sufficient bad-ass lone wolf females in fantasy fiction?
I suppose we really won't have achieved true equality until there are just as many insipidly one-dimensional female islands as there are male.
Being able to think and act on their own, or working towards their own motivations makes a character insipid and one-dimensional? I suppose you and I must have differing tastes.
I don't think anyone is purposefully stopping these stories from being written. It isn't some big bad conspiracy. I think it comes down to perceptions, beliefs, and stereotypes about gender. Authors write what they know, and they've grown up and lived in a world that thinks of men as strong, capable, and independent, and women as emotional, passive, and relationship minded. In turn the stories reinforce those perceptions.
I would like to see something different. It's not my intention to offend you, but I won't apologise for believing that stories could be better.
I like fantasy novels that creatively use magic. Doesn't have to be flashy, just needs to be interesting. Any schmuck can throw a fireball. It takes someone special to use logical principles to make small magics have big effects.
EX: In the Dresden Files. At one point Dresden freezes a lake using fire magic, since he's effectively drawing the heat out of the water and using it to shoot flames into the air until the water freezes.
I would love to see one with an effective and skilled heroine, who isn't defined by her relationship to men.
Basically, like the vast majority of male characters.
You'd like the Mistborn series, I think.
I would love to see one with an effective and skilled heroine, who isn't defined by her relationship to men.
Basically, like the vast majority of male characters.
You'd like the Mistborn series, I think.
Hmmm. I like the series, and definitely think that Vin is a strong character... but a lot of her attitude is based on her relationships with men. Her brother, Elend, and Kelsier... even Sazed has a huge influence on her development. Apologies if I got the names wrong, been a good while since I've read the books.
But she isn't defined by them. She has many male mentors, but she's definitely her own person.
But she isn't defined by them. She has many male mentors, but she's definitely her own person.
True enough. I guess it depends on personal viewpoint as well. Other people may view it differently.
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Hmmm. I like the series, and definitely think that Vin is a strong character... but a lot of her attitude is based on her relationships with men. Her brother, Elend, and Kelsier... even Sazed has a huge influence on her development. Apologies if I got the names wrong, been a good while since I've read the books.I would love to see one with an effective and skilled heroine, who isn't defined by her relationship to men.
Basically, like the vast majority of male characters.
You'd like the Mistborn series, I think.
Well, all evidence suggests that there are about 5 women in that entire setting, so it's not surprising that most of Vin's loved ones are male.
I really appreciate Sanderson for choosing to include at least one strong heroine who is her own person in each of his books, but it seems that when it comes to more minor roles he defaults to men. Not a huge deal, but that's the way it is. Interestingly, from his books that I read this problem is not at all present in his first book, Elantirs, where there's a very fair mix of men and women.
What do I like to see in a fantasy novel? Wow, all sorts of stuff. I enjoy a good magic system (This is where Sanderson reigns supreme), an interesting setting, and a non prophecy driven plot. Other than that I like what everybody does - a good story that makes sense, interesting characters, humor, action, good writing... what I would expect of any good book.
Honestly, nearly every person in existence is to some extent defined by their relationship with other people, for good or ill.
I feel the only time you really can claim that someone is only driven by one other person is when their only motivation is that person. I.e. if you have a paladin that has a thing for a guy and at the same time hates all undead like all heck, is that character 2 dimensional? Does she become defined by another person if she chooses to save the guy she likes over killing a vampire, or is that in essence part of her paladin's honor?
If a person only ever does things thinking about this one person then by all means, they are not their own individual. But almost every person will form strong or at least moderate attachments to other people and will take those people into consideration, sometimes very strongly, when making decisions.
At that point its just a grey area on deciding when a person is too oriented towards another person.
True. What I'm talking about though is that Vin's motivations are very heavily tied to the male characters though.
2. Gradually learns loyalty and trust from Kelsier and Sazed, also adopts Kelsier's crusade against the Final Empire.
3. Becomes extremely conflicted while working towards Kelsier's goals since she becomes fascinated by, and falls in love, Elend.
4. Books 2 and 3, one of her primary goals is to protect Elend.
Definitely not saying that she's only defined by her relationship to the male characters, but it is heavily tied into her character and development.
True enough, to me that reads that they made a character that literally never considers any part of life beyond their male counterpart. That would qualify as a two dimensional character. Did they at least allow her to knit or something?
True. What I'm talking about though is that Vin's motivations are very heavily tied to the male characters though.** spoiler omitted **
Definitely not saying that she's only defined by her relationship to the male characters, but it is heavily tied into her character and development.
Vin is also a straight up action girl. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying she's only defined by them (in fact I clearly stated that in my previous post), but they're very important to the character. She's by far one of the most capable characters in that series, and her action scenes are fantastic.
True enough, to me that reads that they made a character that literally never considers any part of life beyond their male counterpart. That would qualify as a two dimensional character. Did they at least allow her to knit or something?
True. What I'm talking about though is that Vin's motivations are very heavily tied to the male characters though.** spoiler omitted **
Definitely not saying that she's only defined by her relationship to the male characters, but it is heavily tied into her character and development.
Something like that. I'm sure she found time to knit in between the times she was leading a rebellion and killing gods and s$&!.
Hmmm. I like the series, and definitely think that Vin is a strong character... but a lot of her attitude is based on her relationships with men. Her brother, Elend, and Kelsier... even Sazed has a huge influence on her development. Apologies if I got the names wrong, been a good while since I've read the books.I would love to see one with an effective and skilled heroine, who isn't defined by her relationship to men.
Basically, like the vast majority of male characters.
You'd like the Mistborn series, I think.
Well, all evidence suggests that there are about 5 women in that entire setting, so it's not surprising that most of Vin's loved ones are male.
I really appreciate Sanderson for choosing to include at least one strong heroine who is her own person in each of his books, but it seems that when it comes to more minor roles he defaults to men. Not a huge deal, but that's the way it is. Interestingly, from his books that I read this problem is not at all present in his first book, Elantirs, where there's a very fair mix of men and women.
What do I like to see in a fantasy novel? Wow, all sorts of stuff. I enjoy a good magic system (This is where Sanderson reigns supreme), an interesting setting, and a non prophecy driven plot. Other than that I like what everybody does - a good story that makes sense, interesting characters, humor, action, good writing... what I would expect of any good book.
Yeah Elantris had a good mix. Warbreaker seems to balance it better as well, though I've only read it once so I'd have to re-read to confirm.
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Honestly, nearly every person in existence is to some extent defined by their relationship with other people, for good or ill.
I feel the only time you really can claim that someone is only driven by one other person is when their only motivation is that person. I.e. if you have a paladin that has a thing for a guy and at the same time hates all undead like all heck, is that character 2 dimensional? Does she become defined by another person if she chooses to save the guy she likes over killing a vampire, or is that in essence part of her paladin's honor?
If a person only ever does things thinking about this one person then by all means, they are not their own individual. But almost every person will form strong or at least moderate attachments to other people and will take those people into consideration, sometimes very strongly, when making decisions.
At that point its just a grey area on deciding when a person is too oriented towards another person.
True. What I'm talking about though is that Vin's motivations are very heavily tied to the male characters though.
** spoiler omitted **
Definitely not saying that she's only defined by her relationship to the male characters, but it is heavily tied into her character and development.
I want to point out again that this has more to do with most of the book's characters being male than anything else. Also,
I don't think it's fair to say that Vin picks up Kelsier's quest because of him - if I remember correctly, the moment where she really gets serious about taking down the Lord Ruler is when she sees the way the Skaa servents are treated in that noblemen party and realizes the true extent of the unjust society she lives in.
Besides... if you are going to claim that Vin was influenced by Kelsier, you have to count in all the other (male) members of the crew. Are they also defined by the men in their lives? And what about Kelsier himself - is he not defined by wanting to kill the Lord Ruler and impress his older brother? clearly he has no agency.
Also, while in the second book she gets a bit lost in the tangle of politics she doesn't really understand anything about, by the third book she is a leader on her own right in the struggle to defeat Ruin. This is her own motivation and her own duty, not anyone else's.
All in all I'd say that Vin is as independent as any male character, and not in any way Defined By Men(TM).
Honestly, nearly every person in existence is to some extent defined by their relationship with other people, for good or ill.
I feel the only time you really can claim that someone is only driven by one other person is when their only motivation is that person. I.e. if you have a paladin that has a thing for a guy and at the same time hates all undead like all heck, is that character 2 dimensional? Does she become defined by another person if she chooses to save the guy she likes over killing a vampire, or is that in essence part of her paladin's honor?
If a person only ever does things thinking about this one person then by all means, they are not their own individual. But almost every person will form strong or at least moderate attachments to other people and will take those people into consideration, sometimes very strongly, when making decisions.
At that point its just a grey area on deciding when a person is too oriented towards another person.
True. What I'm talking about though is that Vin's motivations are very heavily tied to the male characters though.
** spoiler omitted **
Definitely not saying that she's only defined by her relationship to the male characters, but it is heavily tied into her character and development.
I want to point out again that this has more to do with most of the book's characters being male than anything else. Also,
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm seriously starting to wish that I'd just stayed out of the conversation entirely. I'm NOT saying that I think she's defined entirely by the men in her life. Nor am I saying that they're everything to her. I'm just pointing out that depending on how you view her story, it can be seen that way. But people seem to be fixating on the fact that I've said it can be viewed that way, and ignoring the fact that I've said I agree that she's an incredibly strong, capable character.
That said, EVERY character is defined by their relationships with other characters to some extent. Just like we're defined, partially, by our relationships with those around us. In Vin's case, almost every other character that's important is male, so yes, to an extent, she's defined by the males in her life. But they aren't the be all and end all of her, and that's the important factor.
And I'm not "claiming" she's influenced by Kelsier. It's very clear that she is. She learns from him, she adopts his ways, she fights like him, and even if she does have other reasons to do so as well, she still follows on his crusade and takes it up, at least partially because he gave her the opportunity to see what the situation was really like. And yes, the rest of the crew influence her to. Just as she influences them, and they're influenced by Kelsier. In turn, Kelsier is influenced by them, and yes, they're all influenced by the Lord Ruler.
And now, I'm done with this.
You'd like the Mistborn series, I think.
The problem with Mistborn: Final Empire is that there is only one woman, Vin. My wife and I are reading it and we're 200 pages in and there is not a single female character of any note besides her so far (two very, very minor ones in the prologue and a haircutter later). Smacks of tokenism to me but I, again, I haven't read it through yet so I'll wait and see.
EDIT: Well, that and Sanderson writes, 'frowned', 'rolled his eyes' and 'raised an eyebrow' waaay too often. Otherwise, I really love it so far.
My personal head canon is that most of the Skaa women were either killed or are kept in breeding pits (actually I think that one may have been mentioned off-hand at some point). There seem to be plenty of noble women, if only as background characters.
My personal head canon is that most of the Skaa women were either killed or are kept in breeding pits (actually I think that one may have been mentioned off-hand at some point). There seem to be plenty of noble women, if only as background characters.
If you want to see strong female characters who aren't defined by their relationships with men, check out A Game of Thrones if you haven't already.
Oddly enough my first thought was that there are actually several examples in that series of men defined by women. Jaimie I would argue is heavily defined as by his relationship with Cersei and later Brienne
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I would like to see more princesses making out with goblins in fantasy novels.
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'm seriously starting to wish that I'd just stayed out of the conversation entirely. I'm NOT saying that I think she's defined entirely by the men in her life. Nor am I saying that they're everything to her. I'm just pointing out that depending on how you view her story, it can be seen that way. But people seem to be fixating on the fact that I've said it can be viewed that way, and ignoring the fact that I've said I agree that she's an incredibly strong, capable character.
That said, EVERY character is defined by their relationships with other characters to some extent. Just like we're defined, partially, by our relationships with those around us. In Vin's case, almost every other character that's important is male, so yes, to an extent, she's defined by the males in her life. But they aren't the be all and end all of her, and that's the important factor.
And I'm not "claiming" she's influenced by Kelsier. It's very clear that she is. She learns from him, she adopts his ways, she fights like him, and even if she does have other reasons to do so as well, she still follows on his crusade and takes it up, at least partially because he gave her the opportunity to see what the situation was really like. And yes, the rest of the crew influence her to. Just as she influences them, and they're influenced by Kelsier. In turn, Kelsier is influenced by them, and yes, they're all influenced by the Lord Ruler.
And now, I'm done with this.
I understand what you mean, and get that you were not stating your own opinion, merely pointing out that some might read the book in a certain way... I just showed why that way is illogical.
Interesting topic . . .
I quite like prose with a flair for the poetic, a certain old-fashioned cadence with lots of world-building details, minutiae and little narrative detours. Tolkien is usually rather derided for such characteristics, but he suits me just fine.
I really like to know exactly what the characters and places in the novel look like, and often find modern fantasy novels a little scarce on these juicy details.
I like a fantasy world where the effects of magic (or dragons, or vampires or whatever it might be) are thought through, and have a logical impact on the societies and environment of said world.
I also like fantasy novels where sexuality is treated as if the reader were a grown-up.
Finally, I like fantasy novels to have a bit of heft and some epic scope.
Although I've not read any of the Pathfinder Tales, I'm usually disappointed with the campaign setting/game franchise books (although Dan Abnett's 40K books are marvellous). It'd be nice if they took a few more risks - and perhaps gave some great authors more freedom to write longer novels, or do away with the PG13 requirements.
It'd also be nice to see an RPG Superstar style competition for new authors to get a chance to write in Golarion.
I'd say my favourite fantasy author is Robin Hobb, although I probably haven't read as widely as most on these boards.
More on topic, with a fantasy novel, the big one that's always thrown around in fantasy rpg circles: LotR. Aragorn is the only character that could remotely be said to be defined by the women in his life. The ostensible main character, Frodo, has very little involvement with women whatsoever. Even Sam, the primary supporting hero, only interacts with a woman (as a victory prize) at the end.
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All I want is a female character who can handle things herself...
Read Beren & Luthien from the Silmarillion.
You might need some caffeine, but it will dispel the notion that Tolkien doesn't pass this test.
Yup, THE SILMARILLION has Luthien, Morwen, Elwing, and Melian, amongst many others, as pretty important characters. Luthien even:
I couldn't get more than 50 pages into "The Silmarillion", but even in "Lord of the Rings", what about Galadriel, one of the biggest movers and shakers of Middle Earth? Her husband, Celeborn, is known for... uh... well... his wife?
And the hobbits don't seem to know anything about Tom Bombadil when they first meet him, but they DO know his wife Goldberry by reputation. I'll confess I don't know WHY they know her, but they do.
Anyway, if you're looking for an effective and skilled heroine, who isn't defined by her relationship to men, you may want to look at the following threads:
Fantasy Series with a Strong Leading Heroine?
Fantasy novels featuring strong women (or women that aren't constantly abused)
More on topic, with a fantasy novel, the big one that's always thrown around in fantasy rpg circles: LotR. Aragorn is the only character that could remotely be said to be defined by the women in his life. The ostensible main character, Frodo, has very little involvement with women whatsoever. Even Sam, the primary supporting hero, only interacts with a woman (as a victory prize) at the end.
...
All I want is a female character who can handle things herself...
Read Beren & Luthien from the Silmarillion.
You might need some caffeine, but it will dispel the notion that Tolkien doesn't pass this test.
But none of them make out with goblins.
:(
DJdD, and none of the them ever will.
Things on my wish list:
Intact, functional families with good, competent, parents.
Priests, viziers, and bureaucrats who are good, competent, and helpful/productive.
Religion and religious practice being part of a character's life, not just background.
Found a great work of fantasy porn that I haven't started yet but should hit my sweet spot.
Apparently, there was a steamy Hungarian film adaptation: Hawt!
Arya? Sure, she's not defined by the men in her life, but sorry to say she is not a strong character. She spends the last half of the first novel running from danger and in the first half, she's clearly not a strong person who admittedly is trying to find strength.
You seem to be under the impression that a strong character must be PHYSICALLY strong or skilled. This is a common misconception.
Arya has a lot of mental and emotional strength. She's determined, and crafty, and willing to do what it takes to survive.
A character running away from danger she can't face head on is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of intelligence.
Compare/contrast a character like Jaime who is physically strong and skilled, but overall is a weak character. Underneath his bravado and arrogance, he's essentially a broken man, bitter at the world for how they treated him after he became the Kingslayer.
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cmastah, now I'm pretty sure you're kidding.
As for Sansa, the entire point of her character arc is the shattering of her fanciful illusions about the romance of knights and kings. I wish to remind you again that she is teenager. She is not defined by the "men" you mentioned (Joffrey is a kid as well), she is defined by her struggle to cope with a reality much grimmer than she expected.
Catelyn is indeed defined by her family (not exclusively the males in her family - as you know if you watched the show beyond the first season, she is every bit as protective and compassionate about her daughters as she is about her husband and sons).
And somehow you failed to mention that girl, what's her name, the one that by the end of the first book has to come to power after outliving the two significant men in her life. You know, the one with the dragons who is destined to become one of the greatest leaders and most fearsome warlords the world has seen. That one. What was her name again?
And as you said, this is without mentioning the dozens (hundreds, maybe?) of more minor female characters in the series. Or characters introduced later, like the Sand Vipers, Brienne, Asha Greyjoy, Ygritte, Melisandre, Shae...
And it's even more than this. A female character having meaningful relationships with or being motivated by men does not make those characters defined by those men. As long as the character has a clear cut personality that goes beyond caring about those men, has emotions and thoughts and experiences that don't have to do with the men, she is not defined by them. ALL of the female characters in Song of Ice and Fire, even those who are strongly attached to men, are their own characters. Human being at their own right. Something beyond the archtypical mother/lover/sister.
Yes, having written my thoughts here, I reached the conclusion that you must be kidding.
I'll need to keep an eye on this thread, considering my own goal of writing and publishing a fantasy novel or three...