Goblin Squad Member
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I love the game so far and I'm hooked. But the game has been unplayable at times - well - actually quite often. But there are the times inbetween - mornings or late night - that I could actually enjoy it.
It doesn't help that we have issue like the DDOS last weekend and at least 1 alpha tester being blacklisted.
So after a lot of invetigation I have come to the conclusion that the most likely culprit for my bad performance is my own ISP and bandwidth throttling.
The idea behing it is to disadvantage bandwidth hogs like P2P and to ensure the normal customer can enjoy his webpages and especially games which are prioritized. Well - that is the advertisement at least.
So what do we have. I have 'unlimited usage' but there is a fair use policy.
Did I download too much?
a) I have a Youtube addicted child with his own iPad - this won't go away
b) I bought a new computer with Windows 7. Install, updates of 200+ patches etc. likely caused me at least 5GB to download - possibly more.
c) I downloaded lots of PFO installers. 1.3 GB a piece - sometimes on 2 or 3 computers (3 subscribers in the family) and if it crashed after 1 GB I restarted it
I'm not a P2P user - and the whole idea of throttling is to enable customers to play and give games preferred service. Off course the question is - are goblinworks.com classified as P2P or gaming. I would guess the first is more likely. They don't (yet) have to cloud to be seen as a gaming provider like xbos gaming, playstation or any other gaming network.
So lets look at the signs that I'm currently throtled
1) Internet speedtest shows a remarkable stable 1 MB/sec upload speed any time of the day.
2) Gaming during the week remarkable improved after 11 pm
3) Yesterday night I managed a speedtest of 0.5 MB/sec download - upload was still the same 1 MB/sec
4) It seems now 'stable' at 1 MB / sec download as well
5) I seem to be occasionally been kicked out of my connection
I will update this if I can confirm this. But maybe this is helpful for other players who are utterly frustrated by connections - and Ryan who seems utterly frustrated not finding problems for them.
goblinworks.com being regarded by my ISP as P2P seems plausible
Me being throttled seems very likely now
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Edit: I'm with EE in the UK
Edit2: Yes - looks like traffic management - download speeds via internet speedtest (rounded - but only VERY little): Yesterday night when it became unplayable 0.5 MB/sec, this morning (early) 1 MB/sec - now 2.5 MB/sec. Seems I need to switch provider. I just signed up for faster fiber - but it hasn't been delivered and I should be still in time to cancel
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Goblin Squad Member
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An update:
I have spend half an hour on the phone with my provider and the technial helpdesk. Wasted time - they had no clue and even told me they don't have bandwidth throtteling while in the new contract in the small print is a link that guides you to the rules for bandwidth throtteling.
I then went with my new router to a shop. The joy - you can enter into a contract in a shop but you can't cancel in a shop. At least the person doing his job knew more as the helpdesk and more or less confirmed that my symptons seem to imply network throtteling.
The rules are that this should be done only for P2P - gaming should be prioritized. But he also mentioned that WoW is P2P but is treated as exemption. I need to wait for GW input here - but my bets are they are treated as P2P.
Thanks to my neighbour I'm testdriving his connection. Playing over an hour - one single drop out where I lost connection with the server.
This is BT Infinity. The difference is quite remarkable.
Now this leads to a few issues:
a) not everyone is as lucky as I am and currently not in a contract (technically I entered a new 18 month binding one - but can cancel that one until end of the month) and can leave without a cancelation charge.
b) in principle you could ask the ISP to change Goblinworks from P2P to gaming. Not sure this will work - but worth a try. People who can't leave a contract should try this. It helps if GW can give us instructions what exactly to tell the ISP. After all this is also in GW interest as it will be their helpdesk that will be asked first
c) if you change then do your homework. Ask other players with the same ISP if it works for them. Use google to check out restrictions.
I hope this is useful and we might even get a list by country with providers that cause problems and providers that are recommended. Lets crowdsource the issue.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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WOW is P2P because of the way it patches itself. There is a system process which runs continuously in the background once you install it which uses a P2P networking architecture to deliver patch data. This is how you "automagically" play multi-gig updates minutes after they go live even with 8 million people trying to get the same patch code. It's distributed in advance and the customers are unknowingly a part of the distribution fabric.
Blizzard does all kinds of things like that. Look up Warden on wikipedia for more info.
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Goblin Squad Member
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WOW is P2P because of the way it patches itself. There is a system process which runs continuously in the background once you install it which uses a P2P networking architecture to deliver patch data. This is how you "automagically" play multi-gig updates minutes after they go live even with 8 million people trying to get the same patch code. It's distributed in advance and the customers are unknowingly a part of the distribution fabric.
Blizzard does all kinds of things like that. Look up Warden on wikipedia for more info.
Ryan
Thanks for educating me - but it misses the answer I need.
Goblinworks is treated like P2P by my ISP. What can I do to ensure they treat you differently if you are not P2P. I don't even know how to tell the difference.
But I need a script sheet to tell tech support - or I can't play PFO with my provider.
WoW is covered - they are big and my provider would do suicide to throttle WoW traffic. But they seem to throttle PFO traffic which makes it unplayable at all usual times in which you play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(<- is currently a cyber security engineer at the FCC) The best method to test if something is being throttled is to add a vpn tunnel to the mix. Its an extra hop, but will make your ISP blind to the traffic. If they have a throttling rule, it wont activate, and you will notice better performance.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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<- co-founded a successful regional ISP and works with internet services on a daily basis
Wow is that not what is happening when you use a VPN. ("VPN" stands for "Virtual Private Network").
The reason the VPN may (but will not necessarily) avoid a network shaping rule in the routing/switching fabric (i.e. "a throttle") is that the VPN packets may (but do not necessarily) transit the internet through a different set of routes than the traffic that is not going through the VPN.
Only in the case of your provider doing "deep packet inspection" - that is, actually looking inside the packets of information that your system is transmitting - would it be able to apply rules that throttle bandwidth due to the contents of your packets. This is incredibly "expensive" work in terms of loads on routers and switches and it's very rarely used in practice on an ad hoc basis. An ISP might target a specific connection for that kind of inspection but it's unlikely to be inspecting every packet flowing through its switching fabric. Only in this case would a VPN affect your network speeds and I suspect that if the ISP is doing deep packet inspection on your connection they're going to apply whatever throttling rule on any VPN traffic too.
What is more likely if you have success using a VPN to improve your network speed is that instead of your packets going from routers A->B->C as they do normally, when you use a VPN, they go from A->D->E->C, and that's the difference. The bandwidth is throttled at B for some reason and the new routing path created by the VPN that avoids it also avoids the throttle. This is why, for example, you can sometimes get faster Netflix when you use a VPN - because your VPN provider has a different route to Netflix than your ISP and whatever throttle your ISP has put in place between you and Netflix is avoided by the VPN route.
I remain unconvinced that Thod's connection has been throttled because his ISP thinks Pathfinder is a P2P application (because it is not). Unless Thod can produce some documentation from his ISP that indicates that's true I'll remain unconvinced.
There is nothing I can tell you Thod that can convince your ISP about anything involving Pathfinder. If by some bizarre chance they actually are throttling your connection because you want to play an MMO, I can't help you because they're insane.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay - just tested out my own provider. I'm currently on 2 MB/sec. I should get at least 5 in the place I'm in the house (no - not an ideal place).
I had the first 'disconnect' when monsters cluster at the side of the minimap after approx. 3 min (sorry - should have tested). The really bad bit about it: a lot of programs like browsing seem to work okay. There is no suggestion that I get throttled.
I did try out an airport extreme to rule out that my wifi is the issue. Not sure if that test is 100% reliable as it seemed the airport extreme was faulty itself - not significantly giving me better connection as my 8 year old 802.11g router via WiFi.
In comparison - with my neighbours connection I played 2 hours - one single connection loss, and again for 20 min and no issue.
Still need to phone around and check experience from other UK users and which providers they use.
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Goblin Squad Member
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okay, since my appeal to authority didnt work.
I will try posting proof.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vs3QhEx_3w
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Goblin Squad Member
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Argh - was just posting a reply and got a reset on my connection.
There might have been signs I have been throttled a long time ago. I have a son with his own iPad who is a YouTube junky. I'm on unlimited - so I don't pay extra - but I have no clue if they start throttling at 10, 20 or 50 GB.
For this month I'm certainly above the first two. A new computer with windows 7 and you spend already 10 GB to patch and upload programs. Add multiple downloads for alpha installers, etc.
I bring up P2P as the provider 'officially' is only throttling P2P and newsfeeds. As Ryan points out - it might be very difficult and expensive to do throttling without deep packet inspections. So possibly they just slow me down whatever - but it sounds better if they claim it is only P2P.
PFO might not even be the reason I'm over an unknown limit. I have 'unlimited' - so I don't know how much I use. I have seen sluggish behaviour in the past - but with PFO you get frequent drop-outs in the game - up to the inability to connect at all.
PFO is the only use case I have that doesn not work. Other services might be sluggish but work. I suspected my 8 year old router as culprit - but using an airport extreme with no success I ruled this out.
I have also tried to use a cable for the laptop - also with no success.
The argument that it is the line seems also far fetched as I have times it works. Times that officially no throttling happens. PFO just might have make me realize.
So it seems switching provider so a provider where unlimited means unlimited might be in order. I bring this up here in case other customers experience similar problems.
I can't proof they throttle me. They are intelligent enough to deny it even exist. Well - the tech team is - someone in a shop pretty much agreed with me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I remain unconvinced that Thod's connection has been throttled because his ISP thinks Pathfinder is a P2P application (because it is not). Unless Thod can...
So lets try again
What we know:
EE in the UK is doing Network Management - link here
EE claims in the traffic management key indicator - link here that they only slow down P2P and newsgroup while prioritising VoiP and Gaming
Ryan says that they would need deep packet inspection to distinguish what is gaming, what is P2P. So possibly my assumption that PFO is throttled because they assume PFO is P2P is false.
This means with all likelyhood I get general traffic management and my line gets generally slowed down. This means with my use pattern and with PFO I have the following options
a) change the use pattern and cut down on usage
b) stop playing PFO because everything else 'works' albeit sluggish
c) go to a different provider
Asking to whitelist goblinworks then isn't an option as this just won't work. Also not every EE subscriber will necessarily have issues with PFO - likely only heavy users who are bandwidth mananged (and some might not even know).
Here is a good article discussing fair use policies and different providers in the UK.
I bring this up because I get more and more convinced that bandwidth throttling and PFO is non-compatible. It isn't necessarily the speed but likely throttling will mean there are increased lack times which will be fatal and throw you out.
I was under the assumption that a lot more people had issues. Maybe this was only during the DDOS for them. So if it is only me - carry on. If you get lots of requests for help desk - I only tried to help by identifying a possible reason that players have non-acceptable game play conditions - and that the finger is not pointing towards GW.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Thod, I think the problem is lag, not speed.
I am not a programmer on this project so I am speculating but this is a reasonable theory:
The game has to stay "in synch" to avoid problems where the difference in game state as known to the client becomes substantially different to the game state known to the server.
When the server determines that the client has gone walkabout, it sends information to the client to try and get it to return to synch with the server.
It is possible that due to lag your client is becoming so desynched from the server that the server and the client just can't agree on what the game state should be and the client or the server is terminating the connection as a result.
I suspect this is likely because you are reporting "rubberbanding" - that's the classic visual sign that the client and the server are desynched.
If you can verify that there's no activity on your local network but your computer (plug your computer right into the router with an ethernet cable and turn off the wifi, for example) and you are still having this problem, then would be 99% sure it was a desynch issue.
Now as to why you are experiencing desynch that is a much harder question to answer and could be related to the routing table between your computer and our server. Could you PM me the output of the tracert command (open a command shell by running "cmd.exe" and type "tracert alpha.goblinworks.com")?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Xaer - this is what is happening in that video.
When the user attempts to connect to Netflix sans VPN, all the user's traffic is routed over the user's ISP, in this case Verizon. Verizon, like most US ISPs, has chosen to peer with Netflix's upstream bandwidth provider in a way that limits the amount of traffic that can be exchanged at the peering point. This creates a de-facto throttle at that point, without Verizon doing deep packet inspection. By controlling the route between Verizon and Netflix, Verizon can force all that traffic through a congested route and say with total honesty that they are not slowing down user's connections to Netflix by inspecting those user's packets.
When the user turns on the VPN, the routing table changes. The packets to and from the user's computer are instead being transmitted from that user to the VPN server which is outside of Verizon's network. From there, those packets are routed to and from Netflix and they are peered at a point where there is less (or no) network congestion (Netflix has plenty of available bandwidth; the choice to create a throttled peering point is Verizon's not Netflix's).
This creates the illusion that the user's packets are being inspected by Verizon and throttled based on their content, when in fact they are not.
I'm a little bit flabbergasted that someone who purports to be a "cyber security engineer at the FCC" doesn't understand these basic facts about how the internet works.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Caldeathe - they're carefully setting themselves up to avoid this "Network Neutrality" nonsense. Note that nothing in the idea of "Network Neutrality" would fix this problem. Another example of why "Network Neutrality" won't do what people think it will do, and will cause a massive disruption in the smooth evolution of the internet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan
Call it throttling - call it something else or proof Xaer right or wrong - this is just a derail of what I try to achieve.
My appology if I don't use the correct words. Try to step back from your former live as co-founder of a regional ISP and look at it from the perspective of the customer
The issue is - PFO seems behaving with an eventual disconnect to network slow down or short interuptions. Or in total lay terms
1) Connection bad - PFO crash (eventually)
2) Provider might artificially make connection bad
3) Customer suffers
4) Customer stops being customer of either provider or PFO
5) If only 1 customer = Thod then only problem of Thod, if many customers then problem for Goblinworks as well
I think I have proven well enough that I can't get any positive experience playing with my current provider. I don't care about the reasons and hair splitting how it is technically achieved.
I first assumed it is Goblinworks problem as it coincided with the DDOS attack last week. I'm pretty sure you are confident this is not a Goblinworks problem. Otherwise it wouldn't explain how I can play when connected to the network of my neighbour.
I tried to rule out bad WiFi. Bad wiring also makes no sense as there are times it works fine.
Throttling, Bandwidth management, call it what you want and I assume there are many different ways to achieve this - does happen. And providers try to hide this as far as they can from customers up to the point of denying it or coming up with creative ways to achieve throttling by other means.
So the questions are - what can be done beyond speedtests to show I'm throttled. According to speedtest I did have better free WiFi at MacDonalds on my iPhone today as I had yesterday on my computer while trying (and not succeeding) to play PFO.
The timing of bad service (it tends to change at full hours and becomes worse or better) indicates it is artificial. My own provider seems not helpful in this matter. He tries to upsell me a faster )more expensive) solution when the problem seems to point that it is artificially produced and might not even go away as I go from a cheaper unlimited to a faster and more expensive unlimited (provided I don't change provider).
What can be done to educate other customers to pinpoint where the problem truly is or tell me what else it might be.
Edit: This was written while connected to my own provider and on my main gaming computer. My son has no problems to stream YouTube on the same provider. But webpages don't use up much bandwidth and YouTube tends to buffer several seconds at least of play.
It is PFO that doesn't work despite an alleged 17 MB/sec line into my house. I say 'alleged'. And yes - I have measured top speeds on the iPad close to this number. But I also had times when I could play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thod there should be various tech boffins in the forums who can advise?
That said, I've looked into this and when I get time will try to post/posit some resources for use on such issues. It's a very energetic w/e so forgive me if I fail in advance to get back today and I'm not a tech expert either so these are just pointers/resources you may already have covered/know of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is very interesting. So interesting I really have no idea what you guys are talking. But it sounds kind of important so I'll have to learn more about how all this works. So far my connection had been pretty decent, and I pay my bill on time (almost always). So far, so good. I use Comcast which I generally despise as a company that has gotten big enough to now provide pretty horrible customer service, but still has the gall to charge more every time my current agreement runs out, while providing less service (what a deal)!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Jazzlfraz
Here is the tracert - well - one successful one. The interesting bit - a lot of time outs as soon as I leave my own router.
I think I eventually reach Goblinwork as I have seen the address in 17 as the last that other people reach.
I have tried a few more and some don't even get past my own router.
I can browse the internet - or maybe I just don't notice the problem there. Happy for someone techy to explain it to me.
C:\Users\Jens>tracert www.goblinworks.com
Tracing route to goblinworks.com [66.113.104.100]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 <1 ms 1 ms <1 ms Livebox-3750 [192.168.1.1]
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 * * * Request timed out.
4 * * * Request timed out.
5 * * * Request timed out.
6 14 ms 10 ms 11 ms 217.41.168.195
7 10 ms 10 ms 10 ms 217.41.168.109
8 11 ms 9 ms 10 ms 109.159.249.240
9 11 ms 10 ms 11 ms core2-te0-0-0-15.faraday.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.
249.175]
10 9 ms 9 ms 9 ms peer1-xe11-1-1.faraday.ukcore.bt.net [213.121.19
3.213]
11 10 ms 9 ms 9 ms 213.137.183.4
12 93 ms 97 ms 93 ms ixp1-xe-11-0-0-0.us-ash.eu.bt.net [166.49.208.59
]
13 90 ms 89 ms 89 ms 166-49-151-130.eu.bt.net [166.49.151.130]
14 * * * Request timed out.
15 171 ms 172 ms 172 ms 65.116.154.6
16 157 ms 157 ms 157 ms t1-2.cr01.sea.opticfusion.net [207.115.66.226]
17 183 ms 183 ms 182 ms gi2-1.dr03.sea.opticfusion.net [209.147.112.222]
18 * * * Request timed out.
19 * * * Request timed out.
20 * * * Request timed out.
21 * * * Request timed out.
22 * * * Request timed out.
23 * * * Request timed out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually Jazz, the problem appears to be more along the lines of starting between 11 and 12. Request Timeouts on a TraceRoute are frequently caused by the hardware being told to ignore ping requests to alleviate the possibility of DDoS attacks at those points. This is the more likely case because it dropped all 3 ping attempts on it, but you could get past it on the trace. 18-23 on the other hand suggest a possible disconnect on the GW end unless every router is set to ignore pings.
The reason I say between 11 and 12, look at the time jump between them. 9-10ms for 11, and it jumps up to 93ms+ for 12. (Each of the 3 numbers with each hop is a single ping of that router.)
Now, somewhere between 13 and 15 (so it could be 14, but I don't say so for the same reason you suggest) there is another slowdown as it jumps for around 90ms to almost double that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is one from ping.eu/traceroute
There seems a bottleneck once it reaches the US. US traceroutes seem to be 45 milliseconds while Europe is 4 times that. I think Austrlia is worse. I just have no clue how fast it needs to be?
Hardware seemingly also can play a role. My son playing on the better and faster computer told me - you are already attacked - while I was still aiming and the bandits on my screen stationary.
1 static.121.168.4.46.clients.your-server.de 46.4.168.121 de 1.055 ms 1.161 ms 1.155 ms
2 hos-tr3.juniper2.rz13.hetzner.de 213.239.224.65 de 0.205 ms
hos-tr1.juniper1.rz13.hetzner.de 213.239.224.1 de 0.126 ms
hos-tr3.juniper2.rz13.hetzner.de 213.239.224.65 de 0.205 ms
3 core22.hetzner.de 213.239.245.121 de 0.250 ms 0.245 ms
core21.hetzner.de 213.239.245.81 de 0.237 ms
4 core11.hetzner.de 213.239.245.221 de 2.831 ms
core11.hetzner.de 213.239.245.225 de 2.751 ms
core12.hetzner.de 213.239.245.29 de 2.823 ms
5 juniper4.rz2.hetzner.de 213.239.245.26 de 2.819 ms 2.816 ms
juniper4.rz2.hetzner.de 213.239.203.138 de 4.525 ms
6 r1nue1.core.init7.net 77.109.135.101 ch 7.465 ms 5.639 ms
r1nue2.core.init7.net 82.197.163.29 ch 2.944 ms
7 r1fra2.core.init7.net 77.109.140.49 ch 15.966 ms 16.063 ms
r1nue2.core.init7.net 77.109.140.154 ch 2.917 ms
8 er1.ams1.nl.above.net 195.69.144.122 nl 27.559 ms 27.525 ms
gb
9 ae8.mpr1.fra3.de.above.net 64.125.26.233 us 43.570 ms 42.468 ms *
10 ae4.cr1.ams5.nl.above.net 64.125.32.106 us 21.076 ms 21.120 ms *
11 ae6.cr2.ord2.us.above.net 64.125.24.30 us 121.295 ms
ae4.cr1.ams5.nl.above.net 64.125.32.106 us 21.078 ms 21.347 ms
12 ae6.cr2.ord2.us.above.net 64.125.24.30 us 119.144 ms 117.048 ms 114.933 ms
13 te1-1.cr01.sea.opticfusion.net 64.125.186.34 us 162.281 ms 162.040 ms *
14 159.546 ms
gb
15 gi2-3.dr03.sea.opticfusion.net 209.147.112.226 us 161.420 ms 161.240 ms *
16 * * *
17 * * *
18 * * *
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hrn, here's some guidelines I was looking into in case of issues:-
1. Restart your router!
2. Check if your ISP is throttling your BB
Use measurementlab.net . If throttling then maybe complain to EE's customer service department (who will get complaints daily). Keep records of your communication with your ISP. If you do dump them then look for a new provider who uses Local-Loop Unbundling (LLU).
3. Switch to a faster DNS Server
There's "DNS Benchmark" "DNS Jumper" tools grc.com/dns/benchmark.htm to use for this exercise if desired.
4. Wi-Fi problems would involve further solutions (Channel, new firmware for your router, repeater and positioning of router), but the above are worth looking into if you have a direct connection to your computer. And check none others are using your wifi channel.
After that I guess you're at the mercy of your ISP.
A quick google for general solutions:-
blog.wtfast.com/2013/01/8-tips-to-reduce-lag-while-playing-mmorpg.html
Maybe there is something helpful here. It's just a bit of research I did for my own uses in the event.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What Blizzard does is what the Bittorrent protocol is legitimately meant for. It vastly decreases the amount of traffic that would otherwise be neccessary for individual downloads.
To call a spade a spade, it increases total network traffic while reducing the specific traffic on key servers, including their own.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The more I look at it the more I think I'm just a little bit more succeptible to de-syncing as other users as it seems it was widespread yesterday evening.
I'm convinced now throttling of my bandwidth seems to happen and I'm glad I found this out. But this is a contributing factor - not the cause.
Crappy WiFi - again - a contributing factor - not the cause.
Being in Europe and not the US also doesn't help.
Malware, a botnet or other infections are unlikely. I did a scan and I have several computers - one of them only 2 weeks old that should not be overloaded with crap as I hardly used it for anything but PFO.
And I now tried two different ISP - mine and my neighbour. The one from the neighbour was a lot better at certain times but it also suffered yesterday with the same issues.
I bought a 20m Ethernet cable on a bootfair at the weekend that currently connects the main gaming computer to two floors upstairs. And I will switch provider.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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You may be experiencing problems just because the server population is growing. We doubled in size last week and just wait until the Stress Test begins. Every additional model in a space that your client is trying to render will increase the load. And the more people are moving around and doing stuff, the more network traffic is generated. The combination of system load and network load may cause a formerly stable situation to degenerate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just a casual, non-tech savy observer here.
I notice a lot has been discussed about tricks ISPs may or may not use, and methods that may or may not work to get around such tricks, but I also notice that the original question has been ignored, evaded and deflected.
Maybe I'm just a little too pessimistic or suspicious, but i'd personally be rather tempted to take that as an answer in and of itself.
Thod, I look forward to reading about any progress you make with this issue and what, if anything, worked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I notice a lot has been discussed about tricks ISPs may or may not use, and methods that may or may not work to get around such tricks, but I also notice that the original question has been ignored, evaded and deflected.
Well from our resident cowled and cloaked shadow, that's aligned! ;)
I've provided some input on what an END-USER can do their end.
I've deliberately avoided any suggestion of inference what Goblinworks have to do SERVER-SIDE as that is beyond my understanding. I don't know much at all about Netcode. But what Ryan says about increase in data (more players in density) leading to increase in packet data loss rates rising (??) sounds plausible to my amateur ears as a major explanation and rising above a threshold you get kicked?
Minor explanations probably are the Client/User-side stuff to speed up the connection... probably helps somewhat and for other internet usage anyway so of use even if it is minor contribution. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@LazarX - yet Blizzard it does it without the user's knowing it is being done. It might be buried somewhere in their TOS but I doubt it. There's no disclosure of Warden either.
It's not wrong to do what they do. You might think it is wrong to do it the way they do it.
I thought everyone who played WoW knew about their use of P2P and Warden? They were big news when they started using them as positive things. WoW also isn't the only game that uses P2P for patches. I played in the beta of Final Fantasy XIV and remember needing to "manually patch" by changing the program being used for the torrent files. (It was even recommended by the Devs until they figured out the problem.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think what a lot of people here underestimate is the number of RPG players that have joined PFO who have no previous MMO experience or at least none in the last 5 years.
The last time I bought a dedicated gaming computer prior to PFO was 18 years ago. From that point onwards my use of computers drifted more and more towards work or web-browsing.
The PFO Kickstarter wouldn't have succeeded without a large influx of players who are new or rediscover MMORPG gaming.
These players are not up to speed about network issues hampering PvP, the hardware needed to play a modern MMORPG.
The number of these will vary by settlement. I wouldn't expect any of these in the vVv gaming settlement but there could be up to 50% of such gamers currently signed up for Emerald Lodge.
The existence of providers like VFast who provide a private gamer network to overcome these issues is proof that this is not a PFO only issue. But players like me either will spend a lot of time doing research and eliminating issues or need education what to do and what not to do.
And it doesn't help if you have to distinguish good advice and good intentioned advice.
I'm not saying it is easy - there are issues that apply across all players and issues that apply only to individual ones and a lot inbetween.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think what a lot of people here underestimate is the number of RPG players that have joined PFO who have no previous MMO experience or at least none in the last 5 years.
Even among those who do have previous MMO experience there is a subset that doesn't have the knowledge nor the patience to wade through issues.
This weekend I'm driving down to my sisters house to install Pathfinder Online on her PC. The install keeps saying its corrupted when she downloads it and she hates trying to figure this stuff out. Keep in mind I have played my last 4/5 MMO's with her. She gets frustrated easily when things don't 'just work'.
Not everyone will have a patient sister to come help them and they may get frustrated and give up.
But to the OP I always start with rebooting all equipment and scanning for malware. I also lock down who can connect wirelessly (even restricting my kids from connecting their laptops after bedtime hehe). I've got my ISP coming out tomorrow for an upgrade so I hope that helps the issues I've been having (with another game)..
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Thod: It's a very, very useful thread. Some summary and consolidation of "How To Improve Your" Network Connectivity (and buy a good graphics card!) posted as per GW's Custom Operations function will be very useful as you point out.
I was going to say I have one of those 20m cables for direct connection. Saves a lot of wifi fiddling. Also defragmentation and getting the computer to run efficiently is good practice in anycase. The specific software again as another option for them that want it, it provides a range of different options from simple to complex from quick and free to longer and cost etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Avena Oats
I got a new computer and did some research. Some people might disagree but that is what I came up:
Pentium CPU G3220 @ 3.00 GHz, 8 GB, Windows 7, Radeon R7 200 Graphics card
Why this configuartion?
The CPU might be most unusual. I hear a lot you need a Core I7 or at lest I5 but I saw reports that gave my CPU 5-10% more fps instead of a Core I7 for 20% of the cost in an otherwise identical system for gaming.
8 GB should be enough. I can run 2 instances to trade on the same computer without problems
I hate Windows 8 with a passion and Windows 7 was £40 cheaper
Graphics card needed to be powerful but not outrageous. I reach 60+ fps on fantastic when alone and I drop to <60 fps even on fastest if there is a lot of players / monsters around which indicate the bottleneck is elsewhere aka connection.
I now have a 20 m cable as I unfortunately have a desk in a WiFi blackspot (the 8 year old router is 2 floors up - I have connection < 1 meter away but not under the desk). An Apple Airport Extreme to my surprise didn't manage to get a better connection. So that went back.
The computer was also for my own business as I used the aging laptop of my wife. It is pretty quiet and only the graphic card is overkill for business. But that might add £50 extra on something reasonable.
The whole lot was £420 - I have seen people here recommending graphics cards alone for that cost. Easy to spend 2 or 3 times as much but I doubt you get that much more out of it.
I also did some systematic testing with fps / screen resolution with this computer as well as 2 laptops. With the laptops you noticed that going to better resolution you slowed them down - and one would just die when set to simple or better - instant crash.
So all in all - network connections are the issue. And there should be no fragmentation or other issues as the computer is brand new.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it is not the amount of data - it is the latency and stability that matters. I did a check and was suprised to see how little total data was down- and uploaded. I only monitored this when I started to use my neighbours broadband for testing purposes.
I hear lately a lot of people developing the same symptons - aka desynching. At the same time mine are pretty much gone.
So what did help me?
a) A faster computer - I stopped playing on the laptop. This means I only have one computer left to play stable with three accounts and as many possible players. The two other computers work under good circumstances but are not worthwhile.
b) I changed from WiFi to a 20m cable. The WiFi should be fine for data throughput. My son watches YouTube whenever he can with hardly any issues. And YouTube takes up A LOT more data. The difference - YouTube buffers the data.
The network throttling was only a contributing factor. I can't see technically how they slow you down without introducing some latency. For example I noted that using speedtest a lot you would get an initial hike, followed by a large fall in data until it stabilizes after around 2 seconds.
And it seems burst of data situation combined with timing that cause the issue. You initiate a trade - and I guess a lot more information is send. The Auction House, crossing a hex boundary, etc.
It is these situations where the computer might be too slow to answer that lead to a drop. I guess PFO only allows a limited time to respond. This limited time is for
a) sending out the information
b) information travels
c) information is processed
d) information is send back
e) information travels
f) information is received (in time)
a) and e) depend on server load and hardware at PFO. So there are better and worse times
b) and e) depend on bottlenecks and can be influenced by network throttling. These two are also influenced if you use WiFi or a cable and if you are in the US or Europe (as me) or worse in Australia
c) and d) is influenced by the computer and the processor you have as well as what other programs you have running
For example I noticed that running Firefox and 2 instances of PFO seems less stable on my main computer on a cable as running a single instance but still way more stable as my laptop connected via WiFi.
Edit: and I should add it needs enough capacity to handle bursts of information. A think a single delay of 1 second (just made up this time) might be enough to get a desync. So not good enough if it works before (and after) as it seems the program currently can't recover into a stable state even if it still seems to partly interact. Like people able to read what you write in the chat window but you unable to receive what others write
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it is not the amount of data - it is the latency and stability that matters. I did a check and was suprised to see how little total data was down- and uploaded. I only monitored this when I started to use my neighbours broadband for testing purposes.
I hear lately a lot of people developing the same symptons - aka desynching. At the same time mine are pretty much gone.
My generic desynch issues are minimal compared to a week or so back but TK of course is far worse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought I add the latest bit to the saga - this is not PFO related.
Three weeks ago I decided to upgrade to fiber and a better router. Some of the throttling issues were only discovered afterwards - so I canceled the upgrade before it came alive to ensure I'm not locked into a new contract for 18 or 24 month.
But seems I rolled a natural 1. Instead of canceling it I got an e-mail on the day of the planned switch-over that I was upgraded. Neither fiber nor Broadband is working since and still 5 days to go before I should be reconnected.
Never touch a working system - or I should have just gone for a new supplier. Not done much gaming since :(
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought I add the latest bit to the saga - this is not PFO related.
Three weeks ago I decided to upgrade to fiber and a better router. Some of the throttling issues were only discovered afterwards - so I canceled the upgrade before it came alive to ensure I'm not locked into a new contract for 18 or 24 month.
But seems I rolled a natural 1. Instead of canceling it I got an e-mail on the day of the planned switch-over that I was upgraded. Neither fiber nor Broadband is working since and still 5 days to go before I should be reconnected.
Never touch a working system - or I should have just gone for a new supplier. Not done much gaming since :(
Yeah took ages for me to get fibre working here. 6 Months after the cable was layed finally works.
Though the issue here was it was a political issue and cost saving efforts by our previous government to keep the neo-lib press off their back meant low contract rates and hence dodgy contractors.
I am grateful to have fibre at all, our current government is spinning a line that it can get fibre speeds over WWII vintage corroded copper using some untested new tech that gets high speeds over brand new copper in lab.
