One thing I'm surprised by is why you didn't use a Crusader's Flurry based Two Handed build as your sample build. As far as I can tell, it is a better option and I think somewhere in this long thread you seemed to suggest so yourself.
One thing I'm surprised by is why you didn't use a Crusader's Flurry based Two Handed build as your sample build. As far as I can tell, it is a better option and I think somewhere in this long thread you seemed to suggest so yourself.It is a great build but has issues. It's
1: Feat intensive
2: Inability to access pummeling charge is really huge
3: also requires a dip more likely than not.
4: Doesn't come online until 5th levelUpsides are being more SAD and using armor for defensive stats.
I'm not saying it's a bad build, far from it but having to wait 4 levels to actually function isn't something I'd write home about.
You make some valid points but I still think it's better if you can be patient about waiting until 5th level. I am thinking of making one for PFS play. I am definitely taking a level dip and at this stage Fighter looks like the best option for the heavy armor, bonus feat and +1 BAB. Should the build start out fighter or sacred fist at first level?
If you want to do that build Sacred fist 2 is best because it gets you fervor.
The whole idea is to go Fighter 1/Sacred Fist 11. I just wasn't sure whether there were advantages/disadvantages to starting with Fighter at first level or wait until 2nd level to do the dip.
SF 1, SF 2, SF 2 + Ftr 1 then SF to cap.
I'd start with sacred fist 2 for fervor.
Ah ok. I understand now. Yes, fervor is awesome so Fighter at 3rd makes sense.
Quick question: is a double weapon a prime choice for a sacred weapon... or is it me just me that thinks that wieding a quarterstaff is extremely powerful considering that one double weapon equals both ends dealing huge chunks of damage?
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Quick question: is a double weapon a prime choice for a sacred weapon... or is it me just me that thinks that wieding a quarterstaff is extremely powerful considering that one double weapon equals both ends dealing huge chunks of damage?
Not's really. You need TWF to make it work, and most double weapons are awful. Sacred Weapon progression is so slow, you won't be able to match a druid with shillelagh until level 15 with a quarterstaff. If you are half-orc with a double axe or flail that you didn't spend a feat on it can be a little better, but TWF is still the weakest style for a warpriest, unless you are a sacred fist using flurry.
Quick question: is a double weapon a prime choice for a sacred weapon... or is it me just me that thinks that wieding a quarterstaff is extremely powerful considering that one double weapon equals both ends dealing huge chunks of damage?Not's really. You need TWF to make it work, and most double weapons are awful. Sacred Weapon progression is so slow, you won't be able to match a druid with shillelagh until level 15 with a quarterstaff. If you are half-orc with a double axe or flail that you didn't spend a feat on it can be a little better, but TWF is still the weakest style for a warpriest, unless you are a sacred fist using flurry.
Problem I see: Shillelagh doesn't work with magic staves; it HAS to be a mundane or a masterwork one for the spell to work.
My reasoning:
- A quarterstaff gets better at 5th level; any other double weapon gets better at 10th level
- A quarterstaff can be substituted for any magic staff available.
- A double weapon requires only ONE Weapon Focus feat for Sacred Weapon to work.
- A double weapon works like wielding a one-handed and a light weapon... the latter requiring 2 different weapons, thus two Weapon Focus feats... unless you want to go with 2 one-handed weapons and a -4 penalty to attack rolls.
- For a double weapon, letting go of one end is a free action, meaning that you have a hand free to cast spells; pretty sure you can regrab the weapon as a free action as well.
- You technically only need 4 feats to be good: the 3 TWF feats and Double Slice.
- You can alternate between a double weapon and a two-handed weapon.
To each his own, but those are the benefits I see.
Fervor is limited per day though...
How does this effect what weapon you use? You can't fervor spells onto weapons unless you have a monk level and are a sacred fist.
1) You cannot use Fervor using dual kukris, because you need a free hand. Yeah, that's not stated, but you cannot use the healing/harming effect if you're holding a weapon. So yeah... drop the knife if you want to heal your allies.
2) Fervor only allows spellcasting to be used without a free hand, not to mention that you cannot use spells on others in that fashion.
3) It's still of limited use; run out, and you're out.
Again why? Miserable crit range, low damage dice, feat intensive...
Y'know, it's not all about damage. Think about utility as well. Staves can give you access to spells, so unless you can merge a wand with a kukri, Sacred Weapon can benefit you when using a magic staff.
Doesn't matter.
Of course it does. You NEED to let go of one of your kukris to cast a regular spell or to use Fervor to heal or harm, or to use a wand, or a staff.
And no, the Somatic Weaponry from WotC's Dungeonscape hasn't be converted yet.
5, you need double enhance.
Never heard of it...
Why does this help you at all? If you're a sacred fist TWF is terrible, if you're using TWF feats THF is terrible.
Care to explain why you're so hooked on the Sacred Fist?
Bottom line:
You: "I want to cast a regular spell."
Me: "Your hands are full; drop a kukri."
You: "I want to use Fervor to harm that undead."
Me: "Your hands are full; drop a kukri."
You: "I want to use a wand."
Me: "Your hands are full; drop a kukri."
As a swift action, a warpriest can expend one use of this ability to cast any one warpriest spell he has prepared. When cast in this way, the spell can target only the warpriest, even if it could normally affect other or multiple targets. Spells cast in this way ignore somatic components and do not provoke attacks of opportunity. The warpriest does not need to have a free hand to cast a spell in this way.Are we done here?
No?
Only for certain spells, not ALL of them... and it doesn't work with the healing/harming effect. Any offensive spell cannot be used with Fervor, and yes, you're gonna need these sooner or later.
Double Enhance is not a feat... or if it is, I've never heard of it.
Weapon cords? Could work... if you have 2 full-round actions to spend to tie them, because you won't have them ready all the time.
Finally... do you have some sort of degree on how to properly play a warpriest? Because you sound as if you're trying to impose your way of doing it... and it's not a good thing when someone else tells you to not use this and not use that.
Nope. That's the point of the WP. The entire point.
According to what?
This is not how weapon chords work.
They work as such when you wield the weapons. If your weapons are sheathed, the cords aren't tied to your wrists; you can't work with only 2 feet of lenght of leather from your wrists to your hilts. If you draw your weapons, the cords aren't attached.
I'm simply someone capable of doing math and with game experience. There are plenty of people who want to play things and they can be cool but a halfling sling WP isn't going to do good damage. A TWF warpriest is going to be overshadowed by all mildly optimized builds and a double weapon isn't really any better.
You can by all means play whatever you want but it will be worse at the concept than other options. Just like by all means you could play the rogue but you'd almost always be better served with the slayer. It's the same concept but without the suck.
And? Playing for power and "best setups" isn't always the most fun. If everyone played their characters and classes in their most optimal ways, nobody would have fun at all.
That's the whole point of making the character you want, not the character that the maths tell us to do, not to mention that the character's backstory and roleplay options HAVE to be considered as well.
Nope. That's the point of the WP. The entire point.According to what?
This is not how weapon chords work.They work as such when you wield the weapons. If your weapons are sheathed, the cords aren't tied to your wrists; you can't work with only 2 feet of lenght of leather from your wrists to your hilts. If you draw your weapons, the cords aren't attached.
I'm simply someone capable of doing math and with game experience. There are plenty of people who want to play things and they can be cool but a halfling sling WP isn't going to do good damage. A TWF warpriest is going to be overshadowed by all mildly optimized builds and a double weapon isn't really any better.
You can by all means play whatever you want but it will be worse at the concept than other options. Just like by all means you could play the rogue but you'd almost always be better served with the slayer. It's the same concept but without the suck.
And? Playing for power and "best setups" isn't always the most fun. If everyone played their characters and classes in their most optimal ways, nobody would have fun at all.
That's the whole point of making the character you want, not the character that the maths tell us to do, not to mention that the character's backstory and roleplay options HAVE to be considered as well.
YOU'RE THE ONE WHO SAID DOUBLE WEAPONS WERE POWERFUL
YOU'RE ARGUING WITH YOURSELF
YOU'RE THE ONE WHO SAID DOUBLE WEAPONS WERE POWERFUL
YOU'RE ARGUING WITH YOURSELF
That is my way of thinking, because if a deity has a double weapon as a favored weapon, I don't see why a warpriest wouldn't use it.
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That is my way of thinking, because if a deity has a double weapon as a favored weapon, I don't see why a warpriest wouldn't use it.YOU'RE THE ONE WHO SAID DOUBLE WEAPONS WERE POWERFUL
YOU'RE ARGUING WITH YOURSELF
No, no, no. You said double weapons would be strong for a warpriest. You were told otherwise, that they would in fact be pretty bad. You then turned around and told him that it shouldn't matter if they're powerful, ranting about filthy munchkins and roleplay vs. rollplay.
You can't posit that they're strong and then claim it doesn't matter once you're wrong. Especially don't make it sound like he was the one who was trying to say relative power matters.
That is my way of thinking, because if a deity has a double weapon as a favored weapon, I don't see why a warpriest wouldn't use it.YOU'RE THE ONE WHO SAID DOUBLE WEAPONS WERE POWERFUL
YOU'RE ARGUING WITH YOURSELF
No, no, no. You said double weapons would be strong for a warpriest. You were told otherwise, that they would in fact be pretty bad. You then turned around and told him that it shouldn't matter if they're powerful, ranting about filthy munchkins and roleplay vs. rollplay.
You can't posit that they're strong and then claim it doesn't matter once you're wrong. Especially don't make it sound like he was the one who was trying to say relative power matters.
O...k...
Double weapons would make strong weapons... because, for a staff at least, I found a few uses that people keep discarding over and over when thinking of the warpriest. That... hasn't changed, I still think that double weapons make great sacred weapons.
What I don't get/like is people telling me and others that by using maths and formulas that people don't usually give two cents about, double weapons would not make good weapons in the end, not to mention that apparently, some people want to dictate HOW to play a certain class.
Dude, if I'm playing a warpriest of Apsu, Barbatos or Sun Wukong (going with the more martial-oriented deities), am I REALLY gonna pick a weapon other than the quarterstaff? Not only it makes for a good weapon, but it's also the deities' favored weapons, adding to the character's flavor.
A double weapon is a good option, but even if it's not THE best weapon for TWF, it's far from being the worst.
The kukris seem actually worse. Aside from a higher critical ratio, which isn't of your control unless you trick your die, it doesn't seem practical at all. Don't give me that joke that warpriests shouldn't do this or that, as a whole, wielding 2 separate weapons seem like a major handicap. THAT's the problem with roll-players, min-maxers and power munchkins.
Playing a staff-wielding warpriest isn't wrong, but telling people that it would be, THAT's wrong.
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We aren't tell you it's BADWRONGFUN to use a staff or other double weapon. We are telling you it's a mechanically weak weapon and a mechanically weak fighting style.
If you spend extra feats, and spend your WBL on a staff you can get a little bit more mileage out of the weapon, but it's a subpar weapon and you are always going to be chasing the performance of a more optimal weapon.
Crit modifiers are important to your overall damage output without loaded dice.
well i guess sticking to your deities weapon with the assumption that you are going to pick up greater weapon of the chosen would be one option. of course you wouldn't use the first 2 feats since it be a swift for a lesser advantage than sacred weapon but still....using the staff could benefit from that at least.
honestly this is why i have 3 essential houserules for the warpriest that works well for me.
1.counts as fighter and full bab for feat prereqs at level 1 for all feats. i found the actual full bab to be too good, but qualifying for the feats is just soooo good for it.
2.Sacred weapon only grants benefits to deity's favored weapon. A warpriest may treat any weapon that they have weapon focus for as their deities favored weapon(weapon of chosen now more usable).
3.Now fervor may be part as "part" of a swift action. this means fervor and sacred weapon and or armor in the same round, or as part of a quickened blessing. I originally had blessings be "part of" but found that was way too huge a boost for one round's action economy when stacked with everything else.
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This is one point where I disagree with undone. Greater Weapon of the Chosen combined with the vital strike chain can be effective, especially with a big damage dice weapon like a greatsword or a large bastard sword. It's not quite as good as a full attack, but because your bonus feats allow you to qualify for vital strike before your next iterative would come online from 3/4 BAB it is better than a full attack at some levels, and is even better for Gorumites with access to fervor lead blades.
It does have this benefit of making you more mobile that a standard warpriest because you can move more than a 5ft step.
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A lot of the issue kind of comes down to four things, so just take the guide with a grain of salt. On one hand, it is all theory craft, and all of the DPS math is just that, theory craft. It doesn't take everything into account, and it is also based on certain static assumptions. It doesn't really look at non-combat encounters at all, or versatility, but generally assumes that each build's one-trick-ponyness works most of the time and is enough to carry the class through.
Secondly, Undone did mention that his/her normal group almost never allows prebuffing, Surprise Rounds, or the party to get ambushes, which means that her/his play style(s) heavily influence the suggestions here and may not apply to anyone else's. That doesn't make it wrong or bad, but just take it with a grain of salt. As the guide is a group of suggestions, take what applies and leave what doesn't behind.
Another aspect is it's pretty clear that many of the suggestions are more intended for the later level of play rather than so much the path to those higher levels. What works really well early generally doesn't later on, and what is needed to be effective later might not be beneficial early.) Just like with the cleric, the entire paradigm really shifts after about 5th level, so just keep that in mind.
And finally, many/some of the suggestions are based on questionable rulings and interpretations. The overwhelming idea is that many of these are assumed to be in the Warpriest's favor, and also assumed as "how I say until proven otherwise". So, again, grain of salt. Eventually Paizo will get around to answering them, (in theory), but until then it is entirely up to you and your group (and in PFS the DM), to decide what is RAW/RAI/How it's going to work.
So again, take it with a grain of salt. Undone's views are not gospel. There are some good ideas in there and some others that are likely not going to work. Play styles vary.
:)
dotting so I don't loose the thread ...
A lot of the issue kind of comes down to four things, so just take the guide with a grain of salt. On one hand, it is all theory craft, and all of the DPS math is just that, theory craft. It doesn't take everything into account, and it is also based on certain static assumptions. It doesn't really look at non-combat encounters at all, or versatility, but generally assumes that each build's one-trick-ponyness works most of the time and is enough to carry the class through.
Secondly, Undone did mention that his/her normal group almost never allows prebuffing, Surprise Rounds, or the party to get ambushes, which means that her/his play style(s) heavily influence the suggestions here and may not apply to anyone else's. That doesn't make it wrong or bad, but just take it with a grain of salt. As the guide is a group of suggestions, take what applies and leave what doesn't behind.
Another aspect is it's pretty clear that many of the suggestions are more intended for the later level of play rather than so much the path to those higher levels. What works really well early generally doesn't later on, and what is needed to be effective later might not be beneficial early.) Just like with the cleric, the entire paradigm really shifts after about 5th level, so just keep that in mind.
And finally, many/some of the suggestions are based on questionable rulings and interpretations. The overwhelming idea is that many of these are assumed to be in the Warpriest's favor, and also assumed as "how I say until proven otherwise". So, again, grain of salt. Eventually Paizo will get around to answering them, (in theory), but until then it is entirely up to you and your group (and in PFS the DM), to decide what is RAW/RAI/How it's going to work.
So again, take it with a grain of salt. Undone's views are not gospel. There are some good ideas in there and some others that are likely not going to work. Play styles vary.
:)
Agree with this. Undone has done a really good job on the warpriest guide but there are some valid builds he left out. So to the guy arguing back and forth with him in the last few posts feel free to play something differently than what's in the build. I posited earlier in this thread my experiences with a dwarf warpriest using TWF to have a dorn dergar in one hand with the ability to use it as a reach or non reach weapon with a shield in the offhand. This was "not best spec" but it absolutely works in game both with mechanics and with the role play. Which is actually important for those who want a character vision and a way to play it.
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I didn't mean it as negative as it may have come off as. While I don't agree with everything, Undone has done a great deal of work, and like I said, there are some really good ideas in there.
I've writer a Class Guide in the past, and so I totally get just how much it takes, not only to do the work, but put it out there for others to critique and pick apart.
:)
Looked at the weapon of the chosen line
Weapon of the chosen: Well I guess re-rolling a miss chance is cool... not worth a feat. The next two feats better be good to make up for this!
I. Weapon of the Chosen: Applies to all attacks.... not bad, so let's see, add an alignment component (Sacred weapon does this by level 8 except better), cold iron and silver if neutral deity. Ok, not all that good either. Still costs a swift action and does the same job, except worse, as Sacred weapon. Maybe Greater is the perfect capstone?
G. Weapon of the chosen: You can reroll you attack role while making a single attack? Well maybe if it was for the whole full attack it would be good, but this sure isn't.
Overall:
I think a player would be better served with Furious Focus (More accuracy on you most accurate attack without two bad feat pre-reqs), Greater Weapon Focus (May as well amIrite?), and Blessed Striker (Though Sacred Weapon still does this). These feats aren't particularly optimized choices, but are more useful in more situations that this.... chain.
Why were these printed again? Maybe for Battle Clerics? Even then they are not that good and the best one in the line (Improved) is just a worse Blessed Striker.
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Looked at the weapon of the chosen line
Weapon of the chosen: Well I guess re-rolling a miss chance is cool... not worth a feat. The next two feats better be good to make up for this!
I. Weapon of the Chosen: Applies to all attacks.... not bad, so let's see, add an alignment component (Sacred weapon does this by level 8 except better), cold iron and silver if neutral deity. Ok, not all that good either. Still costs a swift action and does the same job, except worse, as Sacred weapon. Maybe Greater is the perfect capstone?
G. Weapon of the chosen: You can reroll you attack role while making a single attack? Well maybe if it was for the whole full attack it would be good, but this sure isn't.
Overall:
I think a player would be better served with Furious Focus (More accuracy on you most accurate attack without two bad feat pre-reqs), Greater Weapon Focus (May as well amIrite?), and Blessed Striker (Though Sacred Weapon still does this). These feats aren't particularly optimized choices, but are more useful in more situations that this.... chain.Why were these printed again? Maybe for Battle Clerics? Even then they are not that good and the best one in the line (Improved) is just a worse Blessed Striker.
They were designed to be used with vital strike. GWotC also makes it much more likely that your one big hit will be a critical, especially with improved critical.
I feel like the summary of the warpriest is:
Do you want to play a mounted lancer dedicated to a god? Play a Divine Commander.
Do you want to be good at anything else? Play a sacred fist, find a deitywhich has a weapon you like, use Crusader's Flurry to flurry that weapon in full plate (by taking armor proficiency feats).
They were designed to be used with vital strike. GWotC also makes it much more likely that your one big hit will be a critical, especially with improved critical.Looked at the weapon of the chosen line
Weapon of the chosen: Well I guess re-rolling a miss chance is cool... not worth a feat. The next two feats better be good to make up for this!
I. Weapon of the Chosen: Applies to all attacks.... not bad, so let's see, add an alignment component (Sacred weapon does this by level 8 except better), cold iron and silver if neutral deity. Ok, not all that good either. Still costs a swift action and does the same job, except worse, as Sacred weapon. Maybe Greater is the perfect capstone?
G. Weapon of the chosen: You can reroll you attack role while making a single attack? Well maybe if it was for the whole full attack it would be good, but this sure isn't.
Overall:
I think a player would be better served with Furious Focus (More accuracy on you most accurate attack without two bad feat pre-reqs), Greater Weapon Focus (May as well amIrite?), and Blessed Striker (Though Sacred Weapon still does this). These feats aren't particularly optimized choices, but are more useful in more situations that this.... chain.Why were these printed again? Maybe for Battle Clerics? Even then they are not that good and the best one in the line (Improved) is just a worse Blessed Striker.
I really fail to see how the first two feats assist vital strike much. The third would be decent if it didn't require so many useless pre-reqs.
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I've noticed that the Warpriest I built is often outclassing other PFS warpriests. He is a dwarf who worships Korada and primarily uses a longhammer, capitalizing on unarmed strikes instead of armor spikes. This may have to do with lack of PFS charge lanes, but I also believe Sacred Fists are a bit more MAD. Though the dwarf lacks the Plant blessing, the Magic blessing appears to be an adequate substitute.
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I've noticed that the Warpriest I built is often outclassing other PFS warpriests. He is a dwarf who worships Korada and primarily uses a longhammer, capitalizing on unarmed strikes instead of armor spikes. This may have to do with lack of PFS charge lanes, but I also believe Sacred Fists are a bit more MAD. Though the dwarf lacks the Plant blessing, the Magic blessing appears to be an adequate substitute.The magic blessing is actually stronger until level 8. The problem is that until you have 18 str your THF is going to be a tiny bit weaker. Although the build itself is good reach builds will never compare to archery (Little will) once it gets running. That said your build has superior defensive abilities. As for charge lanes there's literally nothing you can do about that it's up to allies to be considerate.
True enough. Fortunately, he started out with 18 Str (that took a lot of minmaxing). Until the third time I played PFS, I thought all ranged weapons added Dex to damage, adding to archery's superiority in my mind at the time. Ah, when I was young and crazy....
Well, Dragon Style always helps with that particular problem.
Well they also don't have proficiency, so you either gotta take feats or buy some Mithril armor+armor expert.