GM's Wrath


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Shadow Lodge

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Krensky wrote:
Block lettering is faster to teach, easier to write, and easier to read.

It's also quite a bit slower to write.


Kthulhu wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Block lettering is faster to teach, easier to write, and easier to read.
It's also quite a bit slower to write.

We don't really mass produce anything by hand and where speed is of the essence we type. Writing is more of when you want to show a really personal touch.

Shadow Lodge

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or take notes - should all teachers and professors from now on be forced to speak vvveeeeerrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyy sssssllllllloooooooowwwwwwwwwllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy ?

not to mention the fact that jotting something down real quick is pretty much a (multiple) daily occurrence for most of us.


Kthulhu wrote:

or take notes - should all teachers and professors from now on be forced to speak vvveeeeerrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyy sssssllllllloooooooowwwwwwwwwllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy ?

not to mention the fact that jotting something down real quick is pretty much a (multiple) daily occurrence for most of us.

Notes are generally written in a personalized shorthand meaning you don't have to write that fast. Generally proper application of shorthand can keep up with any speaker.

Edit: Not to mention we're implementing computers in nearly every classroom where you need to take notes, all the way down to elementary school. Several classrooms are giving kids school laptops to work on.

Grand Lodge

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Psikotik Nomad wrote:
whoa, although i didn't expect the hostility, after reading through it, i do get where you're all coming from. cheers for the heads up, i'll think it all over. consider me educated and chastised ^.^"

I always tell my players. "I'm not trying to kill you. The NPC's are trying to kill you." As long as the players recognize that the distinction is real, I'm doing my job.


Okay, I don't know the module, but we had entered a city built around a massive mithral golem, in years past a finger had fallen off of it and an order of knights or paladins started making arms and armaments out of it, this thing was massive, a weapon of the gods as I recall. If it's the same one, there was a lake of god blood nearby, where I went insane after failing a fortitude check and went berserk. The majority of our group decided they wanted it, they went to f$%& with it, annoyed our GM so much that it proceeded to destroy the universe.


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The future: "They don't even teach typing in schools anymore! It's all direct-neural interface with kids nowadays... what'll they do if the Motherbrain ever suffers a catastrophic power failure?"


They'll be forced to resort to the stone age....the age of writing manually, where many of us wrote in little booklets the teacher would check and reward with stickers or stamps.

Assuming they'll still be capable of doing so.


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Continuing the off topic side trek.

No where near all the schools have anywhere near enough computer hardware to skip teaching how to write in a legible manner.

Nearly every week I come into work and someone on the late shift has left a completely unreadable note on my desk.

Every work order packet on the shop floor has forms and signoff sheets that still have to be filled out by hand.

When some takes a phone message, it is almost always a hand written note. Most of which I can not read. If I'm lucky I can read the name or at least the number to return the call. Though often I can't even read the numbers.

Just a couple years ago I was volunteering at the high school and asked to grade some tests. They just had to write a single letter to indicate their choice. Almost 1/3 of the test had letters that I couldn't be sure what they were.

The technology that might someday make handwriting irrelevant is simply not yet pervasive enough.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

Continuing the off topic side trek.

No where near all the schools have anywhere near enough computer hardware to skip teaching how to write in a legible manner.

Nearly every week I come into work and someone on the late shift has left a completely unreadable note on my desk.

Every work order packet on the shop floor has forms and signoff sheets that still have to be filled out by hand.

When some takes a phone message, it is almost always a hand written note. Most of which I can not read. If I'm lucky I can read the name or at least the number to return the call. Though often I can't even read the numbers.

Just a couple years ago I was volunteering at the high school and asked to grade some tests. They just had to write a single letter to indicate their choice. Almost 1/3 of the test had letters that I couldn't be sure what they were.

The technology that might someday make handwriting irrelevant is simply not yet pervasive enough.

Might not be as far off as you think. I live in freaking idaho for heaven's sake, and not 2 years ago they attempted to pass a bill that would give each child at the start of elementary school their own school laptop to work with.

As for phone message notes, most people don't even leave voice mail anymore. If you can't reach them by phone its easier and more reliable to text a message than leave a voice mail. I can literally name on one hand the number of people I know that have left a voice mail or checked theirs in the last 12 months.

A lot of schools don't even do write the letter down anymore. Its fill in a bubble and move on, not to mention the fact that does not require speed and thus would still be better served writing block letters as that would actually improve the legibility rather than make it worse.

I worked on the floor of a manufacturing plant, I think you're way overestimating how much of it is written. When requesting materials or such throughout the plant, a good number of places have the forms on their website and you fill them out online and submit them to a data base. Most of their paperwork never even becomes paper in the first place.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:

...

Might not be as far off as you think. I live in freaking idaho for heaven's sake, and not 2 years ago they attempted to pass a bill that would give each child at the start of elementary school their own school laptop to work with.

As for phone message notes, most people don't even leave voice mail anymore. If you can't reach them by phone its easier and more reliable to text a message than leave a voice mail. I can literally name on one hand the number of people I know that have left a voice mail or checked theirs in the last 12 months.

A lot of schools don't even do write the letter down anymore. Its fill in a bubble and move on, not to mention the fact that does not require speed and thus would still be better served writing block letters as that would actually improve the legibility rather than make it worse.

I worked on the floor of a manufacturing plant, I think you're way overestimating how much of it is written. When requesting materials or such throughout the plant, a good number of places have the forms on...

Didn't say it was far off. But it isn't there yet.

My wife teaches at an elementary school. The district has dropped any kind of handwriting requirements or teaching completely from every grade. Specifically because 'everything is going computerized.' Great! Except the school has 1 computer lab with 32 desktop PC's for the entire school of 400+ kids. Only the schools in the rich neighborhoods have the 'computer for every kid' thing actually in effect.

Yes, some schools don't have test where the kids have to write anything down. But not all of them. And I think all of them (at least in our area) have dropped teaching any kind of handwriting.

Yes, in our factory a lot of the record keeping is computerized. However, not everything. Also some of our customer specs very nearly require hand written records to prove who, did what, when, and with what results. Just last month we had two temps to whom we could not offer a permanent position because we couldn't read what they filled on the forms and it burned us on an audit.
We are moving toward more computerization. However, it is a slow and expensive process and just plane doesn't work well for some of our tasks. Regardless, not every company is completely computerized at this time. To say that no one needs to write anything is false.
There are parts of the hourly job at this and other factories that require hand written records that must be legible.

Yes, voice mail or text messages might be more understandable and readable. However, I still get written phone messages, a Jim stopped by to talk about X message, this happened on third shift message, etc... I have asked them to send me an email so I can read it. I still get a fair number of unreadable handwritten messages.


My hand writing has definitely deteriorated over the years - my daughter says it's the neatest totally illegible hand writing she's seen


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

Didn't say it was far off. But it isn't there yet.

My wife teaches at an elementary school. The district has dropped any kind of handwriting requirements or teaching completely from every grade. Specifically because 'everything is going computerized.' Great! Except the school has 1 computer lab with 32 desktop PC's for the entire school of 400+ kids. Only the schools in the rich neighborhoods have the 'computer for every kid' thing actually in effect.

Yes, some schools don't have test where the kids have to write anything down. But not all of them. And I think all of them (at least in our area) have dropped teaching any kind of handwriting.

Yes, in our factory a lot of the record keeping is computerized. However, not everything. Also some of our customer specs very nearly require hand written records to prove who, did what, when, and with what results. Just last month we had two temps to whom we could not offer a permanent position because we couldn't read what they filled on the forms and it burned us on an audit.
We are moving toward more computerization. However, it is a slow and expensive process and just plane doesn't work well for some of our tasks. Regardless, not every company is completely computerized at this time. To say that no one needs to write anything is false.
There are parts of the hourly job at this and other factories that require hand written records that must be legible.

Yes, voice mail or text messages might be more understandable and readable. However, I still get written phone messages, a Jim stopped by to talk about X message, this happened on third shift message, etc... I have asked them to send me an email so I can read it. I still get a fair number of unreadable handwritten messages.

I never argued that handwriting is disappearing entirely. I argued that cursive is completely unnecessary as has already been stated the only advantage it carries is speed.

Your arguments about need for legibility only bolster my arguments that cursive is completely unnecessary. Of course we should still do block lettering. Writing shouldn't disappear altogether. Block lettering should be the thing, not cursive as its easier to read.

You're also wrong on the "rich neighborhood only" thing. It was a state wide initiative in Idaho.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
... I never argued that handwriting is disappearing entirely. I argued that cursive is completely unnecessary as has already been stated the only advantage it carries is speed. ...

Some of the posts above seem to be saying that handwriting is unnecessary. I certainly hear people say it a lot.

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
... Your arguments about need for legibility only bolster my arguments that cursive is completely unnecessary. Of course we should still do block lettering. Writing shouldn't disappear altogether. Block lettering should be the thing, not cursive as its easier to read. ...

Agreed. Cursive does not need to be illegible. But if you're going to reduce the curriculum to the bare minimum, at least clear printed block lettering would allow actual communication.

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
... You're also wrong on the "rich neighborhood only" thing. It was a state wide initiative in Idaho..

First, I did say our district. I'm not wrong for our district.

Second, I don't think there was any statewide voted initiative that I remember hearing about. However, it is certainly the policy. But somehow the funding wasn't made available. Just the direction to drop the class and give everyone a computer. So the class is gone, but there are no laptops in most of the schools.
Third, you said the initiative didn't pass. So the students did not all get a laptop. But I would be surprised if very many schools are still teaching handwriting.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

Nah, the original argument was that cursive was still necessary due to the necessity of being able to speed write. I argued that there effectively wasn't a necessity to speed write as anywhere where you would need it, people were gaining access to digital means.

So I'm arguing that cursive is unnecessary, as block lettering is superior in every way but speed and we don't mass produce by hand anymore.

True, ours failed, but not due to lack of funds. More it was a bunch of new creature assessment garbage that was tagged on. The teachers rallied against it and the initiative failed.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:


Just a couple years ago I was volunteering at the high school and asked to grade some tests. They just had to write a single letter to indicate their choice. Almost 1/3 of the test had letters that I couldn't be sure what they were.

Ahh, that brings back happy memories of my elementary school days... trying to create the perfect letter for use in tests, halfway between a 'T' and an "F"....


Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:


Just a couple years ago I was volunteering at the high school and asked to grade some tests. They just had to write a single letter to indicate their choice. Almost 1/3 of the test had letters that I couldn't be sure what they were.
Ahh, that brings back happy memories of my elementary school days... trying to create the perfect letter for use in tests, halfway between a 'T' and an "F"....

For every teacher I've ever had, if it wasn't clear it was wrong.

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