| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, after going over some of the new features in the ACG, I finally stumbled across a little feat known as Pummeling Style. For those not aware, this is what it does...
Pummeling Style-As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.
Now at first I was like "hey, that's cool: clustered shots for unarmed strikes". However, after crunching a few numbers, I have to admit that this feat really does have me a little concerned, particularly when it comes to the amount of damage it is capable of doing.
I recently started experimenting with the Sacred Fist warpriest archetype, and needless to say, when I was forced to figure out which combat style I needed to pick for my bonus feats, pummeling style was the first to come to mind. However, after testing out a couple of ideas (namely using things like Divine Power and Ki flurry to gain 2 additional attacks whenever I use Flurry of Blows), I discovered that my character was dishing out 9 attacks at level 20 (along with a boatload of damage as well).
When combined with Pummeling Style, the character was easily dishing out 300-400 damage in a SINGLE strike (which is almost enough to kill...well, just about ANYTHING with one single shot!). Furthermore, because the feat states that if ANY of my attack rolls are confirmed critical hits, then the damage for the ENTIRE ATTACK is also a critical hit as well.
So essentially, 300-400 damage suddenly becomes 600-800 damage...which pretty much one-shots anything in the game (for the time being, i'm assuming u can only use this feat with unarmed strikes, so a x2 crit range seems appropriate).
I guess what I'm basically asking is...doesn't this seem a little excessive? I mean, granted I love a powerful character and all, but when you are able to deal out this much damage...it kinda seems a little absurd.
Part of me is inclined to believe that this feat might get hit (or at least SHOULD get hit) with a nerf bat much like how Crane Style did, but I guess I wanted to see what other people thought first. As it stands, the fact that you are adding up damage from a +5 amulet of mighty fists, power attack (+12 for 20th level flurry), your strength modifier (which in my example was +8), and any of the other extra 1d6s from things like flaming and frost just seems a bit over the top, but if anyone feels otherwise, I'd sure like to know about it.
Now granted, in my example I'm assuming that every attack hits, but even if we allow for miss-chance and all, the numbers still strike me as a little on the ridiculous side (but again, if anyone feels differently, feel free to post). In my opinion, the feat would be more balanced if a critical hit only applied to a single damage roll (so basically if you rolled 30 damage on a crit and you already had 100 damage from previous attacks, the crit would only add 60 to the total...making it 160 damage...rather than doubling the entire amount to 260 damage).
But again, that's just me.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
level 20 is a bad place to examine things for brokeness. You're kind of expected to be playing rocket tag at that point.
I kinda shared your thoughts Duskblade.
Pummeling strike applying the critical to all your attacks that hit plus the Sacred fist essentially giving the warpriest full bab and flurry of blows results in a pretty scary combination. Its actually the first character I build as a sample at 11th level.
Bottomline is can anyone do the math on how pummeling strike affects your full attack?
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm honestly starting to think that we just need to rename the pummeling style feat into 'FALCON PUNCH!'
Yeah... Pummeling Strike is interesting, but I think the "treat all attacks as one. A single critical multiplies all damage" mechanic is clunky and somewhat unbalanced.
This is how I'm considering to make the following adjustments to this particular feat chain:
Pummeling Style: Works like Clustered Shots, but for Unarmed Strikes (and possibly natural attacks and monk weapons as well).
Pummeling Bully: When using Pummeling Style, if you hit an opponent with 2 or more attacks in the same turn, you can attempt a trip or reposition maneuver as a free action and without provoking AoO.
Pummeling Charge: Pounce.
If it worked like that, the fact that the style can be used with any weapon wouldn't even bother me.
Generally speaking, level 20 is a bad start-off point to consider if things are broken - Pathfinder endgame is fundamentally borked and most campaigns will end long before they reach 20.
Most character builds are judged around level 10 - high enough for your concept to come together but low enough to be a reasonable goal. Maybe you could build the monk at level 10, then post it with normal WBL and full modifiers?
This is where crit fishing becomes incredible. Starting off with a 15-20x2 crit range lead bladed elven curve sword then switching to a leadbladed thundering tetsubo x4
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There are also cases where one big hit is a bad idea, such as (ye olde) Crane Wing or Mirror Image.
Also I am assuming you are hitting with ALL of your attacks? Because that seems rather unlikely...
Also I am assuming you are hitting with ALL of your attacks? Because that seems rather unlikely...At level 20 that's actually reasonable if you have a bard.
Let me give 12th level pure sacred fist math for crits (Since yes you can cheat it in with MoMS but THAT is a MoMS problem not a pummeling style problem)
The following math assumes Improved critical UAS at 11th, Combat style master so you can cast divine power, a ki point, and divine power
7 attacks There is a 0.4782969 chance of none of of the hits critting, 0.5217031 of critting. That's roughly the equivalent of an 11-20 crit range.
Now on the 20 only threat profile. There is a 0.69833729609375 chance of not critting or 0.30166270390625 chance of critting which is equal to 14-20 crit range.
Keep in mind that there is a lot of power lost to unarmed strikes on the cost of amulet of mighty fists alone. A +8 weapon is equal to a +5 amulet of mighty fists and you can't go up. That alone is a reasonable balancing factor.
It's much more powerful as you get more hits and scales dramatically better than most feats. It's stupid strong but I don't see a need to change it other than make it work only with unarmed strikes.
Oh I usually don't assume pre-buffs that are not from the class (i.e. consumables or party bards). My bad xD
Yeah, the crit thing is the main reason why this feat needs to be restricted to unarmed strikes. The assumption of a terrible crit range is the only balancing factor, since you are looking for whether you DON'T crit.
Let's look at some other levels and number of attacks
At level 6, a monk can get 4 attacks with flurry and ki. .94^4=.8145, or a little less than 20% chance to crit. Compared to normal weapons, that would be like a keen dagger at 17-20.
At level 11, you care get 7 attacks, which is .95^7=.6983, or about a 30% chance of critting, which is like a keen kukri at 15-20.
Now of course, the fact is that you critting is a bit different from regular crit fishing (since it is generally safe to assume that the target is going to die). In someways, it combines the qualities of high crit range with a high crit modifier.... still, it generally lags a bit behind regular crit fishing in overall USEFUL damage, it would seem. The only real problem this provides is if they 1 shot the BBEG at the start.... and generally, you should prevent charge lanes in those fights anyway.
Personally, I would love some clarification that prevents use with other weapons (you have to be exceedingly obstinate to use that loophole, and for the most part it seems to boil down to "I want pounce"-ignoring the crit problem), and maybe to prevent it from stacking with either improved critical or haste. The critting seems generally on par with regular weapons without that stuff. And even without the advantages of better critting....you are blasting through DR and getting pounce. It is a good deal anyway. We would have taken these feats just for that.
|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This feat is the most poorly written thing I've seen come out of pathfinder in a long time (including original prone shooter).
The issue is not the crit fishing or the DR abuse. The real issue is this line right here:
For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any).
Parse that as it's written (not as it's intended) and watch the damage sky-rocket.
Assuming a simple 4 attacks a round with a D6+3 attack and all of them hit.1st attack: 1D6+3 for 6 damage avg.
2nd attack: 1d6+3 +6 from the previous attack 12 damage avg.
3rd attack: 1D6+3 +12 +6 from 2 previous attacks 24 damage avg.
4th attack: 1D6+3 +24 +12 +6 from 3 previous attacks 42 damage avg.
Total damage = 84 damage
Remember the sentence specifically states For each roll that is a hit you add the damage dealt from previous rolls.
Stupid, broken and so badly written I can't believe it made it into print.
Ugh.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually it says add the damage rolled to previous damage, not add previous damage to currently rolled damage.
So it goes:
First attack x damage.
Second attack y damage, adding it to x.
Third attack z damage, add it to the PREVIOUS total of x+y.
In the end you only get x+y+z, not 3x+2y+z.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This feat is the most poorly written thing I've seen come out of pathfinder in a long time (including original prone shooter).
The issue is not the crit fishing or the DR abuse. The real issue is this line right here:
For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any).Parse that as it's written (not as it's intended) and watch the damage sky-rocket.
Assuming a simple 4 attacks a round with a D6+3 attack and all of them hit.1st attack: 1D6+3 for 6 damage avg.
2nd attack: 1d6+3 +6 from the previous attack 12 damage avg.
3rd attack: 1D6+3 +12 +6 from 2 previous attacks 24 damage avg.
4th attack: 1D6+3 +24 +12 +6 from 3 previous attacks 42 damage avg.Total damage = 84 damage
Remember the sentence specifically states For each roll that is a hit you add the damage dealt from previous rolls.
Stupid, broken and so badly written I can't believe it made it into print.
Ugh.
Yeah, I have no idea how you think it does that.
Roll a 6, then a 4, then a 2, you end up with 12, not 28. Simple addition.
Oh I usually don't assume pre-buffs that are not from the class (i.e. consumables or party bards). My bad xD
Yeah, if we're discussing how Pummeling Style does a lot of damage when it's used by a level 20 character who's had several rounds of self-buffing and buffs from other party members, then I can't really think of much to say on the matter. Of course a level 20 heavily buffed combat-focused character who's invested a lot of feats into boosting damage is going to hit hard. What did you expect?
Oh I usually don't assume pre-buffs that are not from the class (i.e. consumables or party bards). My bad xDYeah, if we're discussing how Pummeling Style does a lot of damage when it's used by a level 20 character who's had several rounds of self-buffing and buffs from other party members, then I can't really think of much to say on the matter. Of course a level 20 heavily buffed combat-focused character who's invested a lot of feats into boosting damage is going to hit hard. What did you expect?
haha true true. I've seen some of the DPR olympics... they get scary xD
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
. Furthermore, because the feat states that if ANY of my attack rolls are confirmed critical hits, then the damage for the ENTIRE ATTACK is also a critical hit as well.One can nto really be sure that is ow the feat work because the writing is very poor and unclear. However that is certainly a reasonable enough interpretation and a really broken one. In a campaign I'm running we just ignore that part of the feat. The player was just happy of having pounce that he does not care.
Confirming the critical for all seems to be the point of taking the feat, that and making one attack in order to help get around DR, this is basically a better Vutal Strike that's unique to Brawlers and Monks.
I'd say it's a safe bet that it's only supposed to work with unarmed strike/natural attacks, not manufactured weapons.
I fail to see how a single feat, which only works for Unarmed Strikes and is effectively the equivalent of the Vital Strike feat tree, is "Broken". Strong, yes; very strong. But not really "broken".
You're basically performing a Shoeshine combo, and those things HURT. Either that, or your character is pulling off Mubyoshi from History's Strongest Disciple: Kenichi
I don't think I mind giving Monks and other Unarmed fighters a seriously powerful ability, considering how people say that Monk needs fixing anyway.
|
|
Restricting it to unarmed strike doesn't fix Pummeling Style, reverting the damage addition back to the Dead shot standard from which it was generated fixes it. (The feat is literally the Dead Shot deed turned into a melee attack, but changing some text broke it.) Basically, change normal damage to weapon damage and all the problems go away while still being a viable choice. If you restrict to unarmed strikes, there are still ways to break it with monk weapons. For example, take a charging Sohei monk with a Nodachi. Spirited Charge applies to the whole thing, since its one attack. With improved crit, you have a 15-20 crit range. At level 11 with haste and a ki point you'll make 7 attacks, giving you over a 90% crit chance (96% at 16 with 9 attacks).
A Nodachi isn't a monk weapon and therefore not applicable to the feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm honestly starting to think that we just need to rename the pummeling style feat into 'FALCON PUNCH!'
Eh, in my case I'd probably go with 'RIDER KICK' but eh, whatever floats your boat.
I'm sorry, but limiting a Feat because one Archetype breaks certain rules it probably shouldn't in the long run, is how we end up with some of the incredibly terrible Feats that are out there. Limit it to strictly Unarmed Strike, and watch exactly everyone who isn't a Brawler, either the Archetype or the class, or a Monk who isn't a Sohei or ZA, totally lose interest in it, giving those two classes an iconic Style chain.
I'm sorry, but limiting a Feat because one Archetype breaks certain rules it probably shouldn't in the long run, is how we end up with some of the incredibly terrible Feats that are out there. Limit it to strictly Unarmed Strike, and watch exactly everyone who isn't a Brawler, either the Archetype or the class, or a Monk who isn't a Sohei or ZA, totally lose interest in it, giving those two classes an iconic Style chain.
Oh you mean like the old Crane Wing and MoMS?
oh and you forgot Sacred Fist.
Bleh, I'm honestly not a big fan of Sacred Fist. It's neat, but just not my cup of tea, and I can't figure out why.
As for MoMS, it's one of those Archetypes that breaks rules it shouldn't. It's very poorly thought-out, implemented, and overall detrimental to the game itself.
|
It should be left as is, and apply to unamred strikes only. The crit mechanics help unarmed characters get around that terrible x2 crit profile, and the pounce lets monks actually make use of their mobility while still being nice for brawlers and sacred fists.
The crit mechanics are broken when used with a weapon with a real crit profile, and unarmed specialist need something nice.
There is a need for a more universal pounce ability, but Pummeling Style shouldn't be it.
|
Pummeling Style looks absolutely fine to me. Combine several attacks into a larger attack to break some DR instead of having to carry around the golf bag full of different weapons. Nice that it has a good set of prerequisites and gets a bit more. Right about where you want a feat like that to sit. Sure you might get a lucky round or two in but that's no worse then anything else being lucky. Plus you can only punch one thing at a time unlike a lot of other powerful melee and ranged abilities. Seems like a fun style chain as a whole too.
Level 20s don't really have much further than they can go; I think I'm okay with them being able to defeat pretty much anything relatively quickly.
They've earned it.
Once i played until level 40 with 3.5 system
I do wish this feat were restricted to unarmed or monk attacks (at least more explicitly).
I do wish this feat were restricted to unarmed or monk attacks (at least more explicitly).
Lol the problem is that if you restrict to say Flurry of Blows or Unarmed Full attacks you can end up with some interesting scenerios... like the Pummeling Archer xD
I guess I should have been more specific. I meant weapons with the Monk property. Not flurry of blows.
I guess I should have been more specific. I meant weapons with the Monk property. Not flurry of blows.
Well the thing is, the monk property does nothing but allows the weapon to be used with flurry of blows. Classes like the Zen Archer and the Sohei effectively gives weapons the monk property. This creates the interesting scenerio where the Zen Archer is doing a Pummeling Style with a bow.
Well, technically, none of those bestow the monk property ... they just bypass it. Which serves my purpose. IF the feat specifically says "unarmed strikes and weapons with the monk property", then all these other weapons that are flurriable-by-archetype are still left out.
... which i'm a fan of. (though i could see a case being made for Close weapons).
I don't care if the style allows weapons as long as there is a sentence added to the feat that states "due to the wild swings used by pummeling style, any weapon used in a pummeling strike is treated as if it had the broken condition".
Except that is not what pummeling style is. Pummeling style would probably be closer to how the last scene in IP Man was, how he layed down such a hefty flurry on the Japanese General, all in the same spot, that it would be like getting hit with one giant blow....
Or it would be like a haymaker...
Either or.
|
|
I don't care if the style allows weapons as long as there is a sentence added to the feat that states "due to the wild swings used by pummeling style, any weapon used in a pummeling strike is treated as if it had the broken condition".Except that is not what pummeling style is. Pummeling style would probably be closer to how the last scene in IP Man was, how he layed down such a hefty flurry on the Japanese General, all in the same spot, that it would be like getting hit with one giant blow....
Or it would be like a haymaker...
Either or.
No, all the fluff and rules text support it being one big hit. I see it as Daniel-san's crane kick, Kirk's double-fisted hammer fist, FALCON PUNCH, or a big haymaker.