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Solutions and options will always outweigh complete refusal.Sure, if you want to completely give Paizo the shaft in this deal... It's pretty simple.Solutions and options do not have to illiminate advertising and promotion of Pathfinder/Paizo.
Here's what it comes to
Refusing:
That Game master was mean, don't play PFS, they are just dbags
Solutions and options:
Wow, that game master had me do some crazy stuff because I didn't put on my shirt. But it was fun. You should come and try PFS too, it's cool. I won't forget to wear my shirt next time.
So why wouldn't that concept apply to every rule? Because pretty clearly, especially in a shared/living world, after perusing these boards, this place is largely rules driven. So which ones do you ignore for warm fuzzies? Is it discretionary?
I think Paizo has put together a great thing here. I'm big on promoting what they do. But how can you arbitrarily decide which rules to enforce? Where does it stop? WHERE DOES IT STOP?!??
(I hate that, due to the nature of the interwebs, I have to say that last part was tongue in cheek. But it was!)
edit: spelling
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I had what I recall as my first judged TPK *at* Gen Con.
Sadly the 7th game I ever ran as a PFS judge, at Gen Con 09 I let a group get themselves in a situation where I was able to TPK them, 4 of 5 down in the first round of the 3rd combat...
I felt bad the entire weekend, I even started an Apology Post..
Re reading that thread... one of them is now a VL... so I don't feel as bad.. ;)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Akeela, I think the situation is such that PFS groups in at least one neck of the woods has relaxed that rule, and those players were honestly surprised that someone was enforcing it. It's not a case of "Good lawd, pretty soon we'll be levelin' up after every scenario, and animal companions will be shootin' lightnin' bolts out of forehead-mounted wands..." but rather one particular rule that was enforced differently in different areas.
I've run into this on both sides of the situation. Before Gen-Con, I ran a game at the Arsenal, and while we were waiting for some players to arrive, I asked to see one fellow's Chronicle sheets. They were out of order; a few were missing, and one was a hand-written scrap of paper with the GM's signature and little more. That was up to contemporary standards in that PFS community, but not mine.
On the other hand, I was playing my paladin/hellknight in a game, and the GM asked to see the Chronicle sheet on which I'd recorded a couple of purchases, such as the hellknight armor. I was stuck -- it's common practice for players here to keep track of purchases on a seperate sheet and not worry about the "items bought" and "items sold" boxes on the Chronicle.
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Yeah, tell that bastard this is a rule that is not really a rule next time. Like surprise rounds. And skill checks.If you want your re-roll so badly just pony up the 10 bucks and BAM! re-roll time.Doesn't excuse the DM from his dickish handling of the situation.
I hardly think wearing or not wearing a tshirt falls in the same line of rules as game play such as rolling an attack or skill roll.
At the very least, the GM should have said. In order to give you this re-roll, I need you to put on the tshirt and wear it for the remainder of the game. That would have been the minimal thing to do if you want to enforce an arbitrary rule.
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So why wouldn't that concept apply to every rule? Because pretty clearly, especially in a shared/living world, after perusing these boards, this place is largely rules driven. So which ones do you ignore for warm fuzzies? Is it discretionary?
I think Paizo has put together a great thing here. I'm big on promoting what they do. But how can you arbitrarily decide which rules to enforce? Where does it stop? WHERE DOES IT STOP?!??
(I hate that, due to the nature of the interwebs, I have to say that last part was tongue in cheek. But it was!)
edit: spelling
You know, you are right. All we have to do is define wearing. ^_^
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On the other hand, I was playing my paladin/hellknight in a game, and the GM asked to see the Chronicle sheet on which I'd recorded a couple of purchases, such as the hellknight armor. I was stuck -- it's common practice for players here to keep track of purchases on a seperate sheet and not worry about the "items bought" and "items sold" boxes on the Chronicle.
I know someone who wanted to play a character at a game at my house with no character sheet or chronicle sheets!!! ;)
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Ok, so here is what I think. The shirt must be displayed in some open fashion if it is not of the appropriate size for the person to wear. IE to big that it would be a kite, or to small that it would be a thong. I agree that the entire idea is to promote pathfinder society and as a reward you get a single d20 re-roll.
How do you all feel about giving your re-roll to someone else? I was playing Below the silver tarn and we had one player do that on the final encounter when the cleric failed her will save and died, she made it on the second roll. The gm allowed it which I thought was nice.
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I notice on the guide that a few shirts sold at GenCon are not mentioned as allowing rerolls. I personally purchased the shirt with the goblin holding a gemstone, and that's not mentioned; is that not allowed for a reroll at this time?
Paizo should also be sure to tell the staff manning their stand about what will and will not be allowing a reroll, because I was assured by one of the staff that a goblin plushie was the next big thing in rerolls. I would have bought it either way, but a few people are going to get embarrassed if they show up to play with their plushie expecting special treatment.
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At a local con here in ST Louis ("Too Poor for GenCon"), I saw a player at a table hand out two extra faction shirts just before the game started. I had to get to my the table I was running, but I figure the players that got them draped them over their backs and thus had a "re-roll" for that game.
So, would anyone object to that? I've been thinking about also doing the same thing - as I run/play with a lot a beginners and it would be a kewl thing to do, to loan them a shirt for the game. (and maybe they'll even buy one of thier own!)
That is beyond lame.
So basically the player said, I have three t-shirts lets arbitrarily hand two t-shirts to two other PCs at the table and let them put them on their bags on the floor and use them for re-rolls?
I would tell the two players they have to put their shirts on and watch the t-shirt owner's eyes go wide.
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I have seen one player pull a shirt out of his bag as the game started, and put it one his head as a hat. He anounced that he was Osirion faction (even thou the shirt was not) and this was his headscarf... and put the neck of the shirt on like a headband, draping the shirt back across his head and to each side like an Egyptian headdress - with the faction name out visible.
It was cool.
I finally have a reason to buy an Osirion shirt and make an Osirion PC.
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Thelong and short of it is that the GM in question was behaving improperly. He should be reported to campaign management.
For any rule, the GM should draw it to the attention of the player and give them an opportunity to follow said rule. The GM should've said that the player has to be wearing it. Unless I'm mistaken, there is nothing in the rule about it having to be worn for the duration of the scenario, or its entirity. Nor does it say in what fasihon it must be worn.
Is it within the purview of the GM to insist that it be worn? Yes.
Was he overstepping his bounds by disallowing a reroll entirely? Without question.
And yes, if he has a personal issue with the way the rule is enforced, he needs to address it at the beginning of the game, and not lie in wait ambushing the player with his own grievances against the system. He should address it to the Campaign management without taking it out on a player. That's simply not going to result in fun for anyone.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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the player was holding the shirt in secret, waiting to ambush the GM with it?
If a player jumps up from behind the GM and swoops the shirt over his head, the GM has bigger things to worry about than whether or not the reroll is valid.
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good lord ..
it's a reroll ... it's not as tho it breaks the game for people to have a single second chance ..
I realize the purpose behind the shirt and the folio and whatnot .. however, being a jerk for the simple purpose of being a jerk is stupid..
if the player has the required item ... let them have the reroll.. it's really quite stupidly simple.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Thelong and short of it is that the GM in question was behaving improperly. He should be reported to campaign management.
Hey there, Kristoph. I'm engaging your post, because I think it's a good example of a large issue.
I wasn't there with the original poster. I don't know the people involved, or the tone of voice that people used. I'm not defending a friend or sticking it to somebody I think needs a lesson.
I'm chalking this incident up to a conflict of expectations. The player expected to be able to re-roll a skill check, and was rudely surprised by the GM refusing to allow that. If it comes at a tense time, I don't think there *is* an easy way for the GM to make that ruling.
The GM had expectations, too. He expected that magic shirts be visible and worn. I don't know, but maybe that's the procedures for the PFS groups he plays with.
For any rule, the GM should draw it to the attention of the player and give them an opportunity to follow said rule.
For new players, sure. For people who've been around the PFS block a while, that's more of a judgement call, and again, has to do with expectations.
Would you allow me to roll an attack, see that I'd hit with a comfortaable margin, and then announce my character had chosen to use the Power Attack feat? (Maybe you would, maybe not; again, it has to do with local table variation and expectations. Let's say that, for the purpose of this discussion, that you wouldn't allow that retroactive decision; if necessary, we could come up with another rule.)
So, does the conversation go like this:
Me: I roll an 18. Oh, and she was using Power Attack.
You: You have to announce that before the roll. Re-roll that attack, and from now on, you'll need to make it clear whether you're using Power Attack.
or like this:
Me: I roll an 18. Oh, and she was using Power Attack.
You: Sorry, you would have needed to announce that before the roll. From now on, you'll need to make it clear whether you're using Power Attack.
Maybe you'd let the player remake that first attack. But do you really think that the second choice, denying Power Attack for that first roll and explaining the rule, should get you reported to Mike Brock?
Unless I'm mistaken, there is nothing in the rule about it having to be worn for the duration of the scenario, or its entirity. Nor does it say in what fashion it must be worn.
See, and I'd say that "wearing a shirt" has a common sense definition. Go into a restaurant that has a "no shirt, no service" policy and wear a shirt on your head. See what happens. But you know that's yet another example of differing expectations. In your neck of the woods, putting a shirt on your head is okay; I have different expectations.
And yes, if he has a personal issue with the way the rule is enforced, he needs to address it at the beginning of the game, and not lie in wait ambushing the player with his own grievances against the system.
Do GMs in your neck of the woods need to explain before the adventure begins that they expect a player to announce when he's using Power Attack? Or which spell a cleric PC is converting to cure moderate wounds? Or which tricks her animal companion knows? If I announce my character is carefully moving over suspicious terrain at half-speed, do I need to also announce that I'm looking for traps*?
If the GM in the original post normally expects people to be wearing their magic shirts, he might not have even thought to explain that assumption ahead of time.
(I know that shirt rerolls are a detail I remember more often than not, but not all the time.)
--+--+--
So, where am I going with all this?
There is a continuing undercurrent in this thread -- and I've picked on your post to exemplify it -- and on the PFS boards here and there, that certain ways to play the game are prima facae arrogant, jerkish behavior. There are jerks in PFS, no doubt about it. There are table judges who are self-righteous and bullying. There are players who are used to their plans always working. There are players who like to ruin other players' plans, just for the hell of it.
But there are also people of good will, doing their best, who come in conflict with one another, and this sounds like it could be one of those times. We all have more fun and get further if we assume good will on people, even those whose behavior, based on their experiences, doesn't match ours.
Peace to you.
* (True story. Hi, nosig!)
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Would you allow me to roll an attack, see that I'd hit with a comfortaable margin, and then announce my character had chosen to use the Power Attack feat?
No, I would not allow you to do that.
Now, if you have power attacked 3x and you fail to announce it on the 4th time. Then say after rolling, adding in power attack damage. Then I would 9 times out of 10 give that extra damage to you unless I for one minute think you intentionally did it. Even then I would probably still give you the power attack this time and tell you, make sure you announce it from now on. So only in the situation where I saw someone doing this over and over again, would I might begin to "punish" the player with the strictest sense of the rules.
We are not dealing with machines here or numbers, but people. So I believe when you try to apply black and white rules to a social game with human players, you are missing something there. The grey areas and giving people a benefit of the doubt.
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It seems to me that the real issue was not the shirt. The original poster felt bad because the roller lost out on the faction quest as a GM never have I had a faction quest rest solely on a single roll. There are always a coupe of different approaches to achieving it. Plus, remember, your teammates can help you out and on skills you can always take ten or twenty and be assured of your success. A shirt reroll or not should never be the deciding factor on completing a faction quest....or any true quest objective, for that matter.
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Here's a thought or two to consider about wearing a shirt vs. simply having a shirt.
First off, wearing a shirt at the table really doesn't do much for promoting PFS/Paizo if you think about it. We are there because we already are into PFS/Paizo...wearing it outside the room, yeah, totally...but that's not the question. In the room for your re-roll, it honestly doesn't do much for promoting.
Secondly, if you're not wearing it, show the GM you have it and ask if that's OK or not. If they say no, then they say no.
However...GM's must consider that at multi-day cons like GenCon, there's enough people who already don't know how to take care of their hygiene. As a player or GM, I'd rather players wear a shirt no more than one day...sometimes less! Being slightly not-skinny myself, there were days I hit my hotel room to change shirts and 'freshen up' so I didn't have to worry about that issue, because honestly, who wants to sit next to a BO factory that is adding to the haze of gamer-funk??
Purely from that aspect alone am I as a GM am more than happy with you just showing me the shirt, because for me, that's already showing you are backing and helping to promote PFS/Paizo simply by that purchase.
But do I let players share shirts? No. That's not the point. You want a re-roll...buy a shirt.
And please, no one throw the "well, they should have 3-4 shirts at a con like GenCon" argument at me. I like Paizo, I like their shirts, but spending $75-$100 for 3-4 tees is beyond many gamers' budgets.
Thus for me, if you have one, show it to me and I'll be more than happy to let you have that re-roll.
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Chris ... I appreciate the candor and thought that you put into your post. Thank you for addressing the issue in a calm and rational manner.
That's what I think that the GM in question should have done.
I would first like to reiterate the opinion (as has been stated by others above) that a major rule (like Initiative, combat roles, armor class, feats, etc.) are the same in a quantifiable fasihon. This is a minor thing that, in my opinion, shouldn't be that big a deal.
There's a possiblity that you're absolutely correct in one regard: we weren't there, and the GM was reasonable and expolained the ruling to the player in a calm and raltional manner. I'm choosing to believe, by nature of the original post, that the GM didn't do that, otherwise the player wouldn't have felt it necessary to come to the boards if he was made to feel comfortable with the ruling.
Also has been said above, this thread has a certain tinge of repetition to it. It's been brought up time and again. Perhaps I'm carrying a bit of baggage from previous discussions, but, I can't seem to believe that the GM hadn't read threads in these forums that hadn't made an issue of whether the tshirt had to be "worn" or not.
There is one salient point that I think is being missed. There is nothing in the language (as in the case of Power Attack or other rule) that makes it clear that the roll cannot be made unless it is announced beforehand that the reroll is being pursued. It is something that the GM could simply make the player aware of; the most simple way to do so is to tell the players that he is aware of an issue, and that he is going to make a call in regards to it. But, I think that the more important thing is that we not make this into a debate about Rules-Lawyering, or about "cheating" the rules.
I appreciate that there are not always GMs that are being confrontational. I appreciate that we don't know what really happened. I appreciate that we're doing our best (or at least some are) to not be inflamatory about this. But, it's a question that has clearly needs to be addressed, and I made suggestions above that both halves bring the issue, once again, to campaign staff. We can't make people buy a shirt that doesn't fit. But, it's not fair to them to not allow them to buy a shirt that does fit. Overall, we can't realistically enforce the rule if we aren't able to provide all players equal opportunity to fairly buy the material for it.
I'm not saying that I have the answer. Obviously, by the rule's continued presence in the Guidebook, campaign staff feels that it should stand. But, until something changes, I personally think that GMs and players should find mutually agreeable ground on which to stand. There are already enough difficulties going on with the new rules published that this shouldn't be a bone of contention. There's bigger things to worry about.
So, who's coming to the negotiating table? I am, for one.
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It seems to me that the real issue was not the shirt. The original poster felt bad because the roller lost out on the faction quest as a GM never have I had a faction quest rest solely on a single roll. There are always a coupe of different approaches to achieving it. Plus, remember, your teammates can help you out and on skills you can always take ten or twenty and be assured of your success. A shirt reroll or not should never be the deciding factor on completing a faction quest....or any true quest objective, for that matter.
When the scenario states "The PC may make only one attempt at this" in regards to faction mission what do you do then?
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I can't seem to believe that the GM hadn't read threads in these forums that hadn't made an issue of whether the tshirt had to be "worn" or not.
\
Much like the people that call in to (talk) radio stations, I believe it has been mentioned on the boards that the population of these forums is a vocal minority of the citizens of PFS as a whole. I don't think we can assume that everyone is aware of the hot topics of the discussion boards.
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How about a "Shower re-roll" -
I'm tempted to tell players at my table on the 3rd and 4th day of a Con that I'll let them take a re-roll if they have had a shower (and put on clean clothing!) in the last 6 hours.I'm sure someone will object that it's against the rules... but hay! it's a good idea. Oh! and maybe had a breath mint too.
I heartily support this for convention play.
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Much like the people that call in to (talk) radio stations, I believe it has been mentioned on the boards that the population of these forums is a vocal minority of the citizens of PFS as a whole. I don't think we can assume that everyone is aware of the hot topics of the discussion boards.
You're sbsolutely right, Akeela. Beyond reproof, you are correct.
We are a minority. And a small one at that. Less than 10% of the total population of PFS. And that's why I find it difficult to believe.
I find it difficult to believe that this person justhappened to bring up an issue that is only prevalent among less than 10% of PFS. For other people, they generally shrug and move on with the game. This GM instead took it out on the player, and didn't simply inform the player that he needed to put on his tshirt, but, starkly refused to allow the player to use the shirt,even if he had put it on when making the reroll. That doesn't sound to me like something that an average person would do.
Perhaps I am choosing to believe something that goes against my nature of believing the best of people. Perhaps I am carrying baggage from other previous GMs who did bring forum debates to the table. It could be that this GM came up with this idea all on his own.
If that proves to be the case, I shall be duly incredulous, and pleased. But, I think it unlikely.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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I don't get the argument of 'wearing the shirt to promote PFS'.
I own a Osirion shirt and always wear it. But all it has is the symbol for Osirion and the word "Osirion". Nowhere on the shirt does it say Pathfinder or Paizo, so any random schlub at a con who is unfamilair with PFS won't even know what the shirt means.
And all the times I have worn the shirt in a non-gaming setting, no one has ever asked me what my shirt means.
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...starkly refused to allow the player to use the shirt,even if he had put it on when making the reroll.Who did? Don't see that in the OP.
Strongly implied.
The player of course didn't get his prestige quest finished, though the rest of the players tried to help him. None of our level 1 characters could make the check so he lost out.
I assume if the player had gotten his reroll, the result would have been mentioned.
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It seems to me that the real issue was not the shirt. The original poster felt bad because the roller lost out on the faction quest as a GM never have I had a faction quest rest solely on a single roll. There are always a coupe of different approaches to achieving it. Plus, remember, your teammates can help you out and on skills you can always take ten or twenty and be assured of your success. A shirt reroll or not should never be the deciding factor on completing a faction quest....or any true quest objective, for that matter.When the scenario states "The PC may make only one attempt at this" in regards to faction mission what do you do then?
Creativity and clarity. First, I own a lot of scenarios and not one of them gives such an ultimatum that there is only one approach. The closest is one that claims that if the players choose to use a particular skill and fails then the npc attacks...in which case the players could opt to subdue andcapture, etc. But nothing stops the GM from stressing that it could be hard and player assists or taking ten or twenty could be encouraged. Honestly, there are ALWAYS options. While I assume my monsters can think and so on, my goal is my players success and enjoyment, so I do what I can to reasonably ensure they can succeed. I do admit that there are a few GMs out there who seem to aquire great glee when they get the upper hand, but a Society event really should be about the players. My personal view anyway.
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Man o' man, I make a post and come back from work the next day to see a hornets nest stirred up. I suppose I should clarify a couple of things after reading all this.
1) No, he didn't get his reroll. He did try to put the shirt on after the GM said no, but was told no again.
2) We couldn't take 20 due to the nature of the skill check. Basically failure would've meant being caught commiting a crime. The DC of this check was 20 and I believe it was a linguistics check. Perhaps a knowledge. We had a bard in the party, but he rolled a 2. Of course, seeing what faction this mission was for, stealing something seems odd.
3)I'm not really thinking the GM was out to get the player. Could've been, but we were all lvl 1 save for 1 lvl 2. Not like we were dominating much of anything and everyone seemed to be enjoying themselves.
The entire thing could've been avoided if the GM's groundrules on shirts had been clear. Yes I know he doesn't have to do this, but it can't really hurt either. Other then this 1 thing, which happened at the end of the scenario after we had done everything else, I thought the GM did a very good job.
I'll try to make less rabble-rousing posts ;)
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It seems to me that the real issue was not the shirt. The original poster felt bad because the roller lost out on the faction quest as a GM never have I had a faction quest rest solely on a single roll. There are always a coupe of different approaches to achieving it. Plus, remember, your teammates can help you out and on skills you can always take ten or twenty and be assured of your success. A shirt reroll or not should never be the deciding factor on completing a faction quest....or any true quest objective, for that matter.Agreed. Very much. I think you hit the important point when you said, "the real issue was not the shirt". I think it's the difference in the way the judge and the player expect the shirt re-roll rule to work. Different expectations. Table Variation causing friction between players and the judge. That's why I come here and read the threads, so I can get a better understanding on how everyone else does things, so that I can do them the same way as everyone else. and do my part to reduce Table Variation (YMMV).
** spoiler omitted **
edited: to correct typos and clearify my views somewhat. sorry I am so hard to follow sometimes...
There isnothing in the rules that says you cannot take ten or twenty just because you are at a Society event. Most faction quests have you doing one of 4 things: finding something, negotiating or intimidating or just some little oddball thing like an etching or moving something. Everyone of these use skills that you can take time with. Rarely do they require an in-combat move...and when they do its so easy you almost don't even need to roll.