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What kind of Bard build is best for this party?

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Current party is 3rd level, consisting of Fighter-Longbow specialist, Bloodrager, and a Duskblade (custom Magus type).

Our 4th party member wants to play a Bard, but never has before. His previous characters played have always had a way of not turning out like he wanted. Never really meshed with the party or pretty much didn't contribute in the manner he was expecting.

We would like to help steer him to a concept/build that would allow him to feel like he's a well supporting character.

He loves options and being the charisma face of the party.

What would you recommend?
Eigengrau wrote:
What would you recommend?

Read this guide

Actually, read this guide. It's more up to date with the material that will be available, Treantmonk's is Core-only.

If he wants to buff and be the party face a non-archetyped Bard will do just great. It's a fairly straightforward class; just set up Bardic Performance and watch the power of numbers make everyone better. With the party make up, he's going to want to put most of his effort into spell-casting; make charisma the high stat and spend spells known on buffs and debuffs.

Magician Archetype Bard would fit the party well.
Eigengrau wrote:

Current party is 3rd level, consisting of Fighter-Longbow specialist, Bloodrager, and a Duskblade (custom Magus type).

Our 4th party member wants to play a Bard, but never has before. His previous characters played have always had a way of not turning out like he wanted. Never really meshed with the party or pretty much didn't contribute in the manner he was expecting.

We would like to help steer him to a concept/build that would allow him to feel like he's a well supporting character.

He loves options and being the charisma face of the party.

What would you recommend?

Human Arcane Duelist with its FCB gets my vote.

However, there are better ways to be a support character... like an Evangelist with the Glory (Heroism) Domain.

Let me know if you're curious about a build for either.
Wiggz wrote:

Human Arcane Duelist with its FCB gets my vote.

However, there are better ways to be a support character... like an Evangelist with the Glory (Heroism) Domain.

Let me know if you're curious about a build for either.

I actually wouldn't suggest the arcane duelist on this. It trades out pretty much all of your skill abilities, and based on the fact they have 2 2+Int classes and a single 4+Int, they're probably pretty starved for versatile magic and skills.

Honestly, I'd say stick core bard, human, and go favored class bonus. Put pretty much everything into Charisma, then some dex and int, finally some con. Spend battles casting.

Check with your GM about pageant of the peacock.

Mostly, your team basically has combat mostly covered. Use your natural abilities to make them better and focus on as much versatility as you can besides.
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A fighter a magus and a bloodrager walk into a room, looking for a Bard.

They find a SKALD!

Skald is the way to go with this group.
Eigengrau wrote:

Current party is 3rd level, consisting of Fighter-Longbow specialist, Bloodrager, and a Duskblade (custom Magus type).

Our 4th party member wants to play a Bard, but never has before. His previous characters played have always had a way of not turning out like he wanted. Never really meshed with the party or pretty much didn't contribute in the manner he was expecting.

We would like to help steer him to a concept/build that would allow him to feel like he's a well supporting character.

He loves options and being the charisma face of the party.

What would you recommend?

What's a Duskblade?

My most effective bard had no archetype and focused entirely on enchantments and buffs. But even though he was doing a great job debuffing and buffing, I got completely bored. Not great for an options junkie.

What does the player want to play? I'd present him with Arcane Duelist and some other options, like Archaeologist.

If he goes Arcane Duelist, consider a one-level dip as an Inspired Blade Swashbuckler. Panache is Charisma-based, and also Int based for the Inspired blade, minimum 1. (So basically Cha modifier +1). Weapon Focus Rapier and Weapon Finesse (Rapier only) for free. Level one panache deeds like Opportune Parry and Riposte will never get old, and you'll get to use them more as Charisma increases.
Pendagast wrote:

A fighter a magus and a bloodrager walk into a room, looking for a Bard.

They find a SKALD!

Skald is the way to go with this group.

Skald's a no go, Magus wants to cast and fight at the same time so he isn't getting anything from Raging Son.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

A fighter a magus and a bloodrager walk into a room, looking for a Bard.

They find a SKALD!

Skald is the way to go with this group.

Skald's a no go, Magus wants to cast and fight at the same time so he isn't getting anything from Raging Son.

Not to mention the other one's an archer so he's getting a point of to damage and no to hit, and the con bonus isn't really that helpful.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

A fighter a magus and a bloodrager walk into a room, looking for a Bard.

They find a SKALD!

Skald is the way to go with this group.

Skald's a no go, Magus wants to cast and fight at the same time so he isn't getting anything from Raging Son.

Any character can choose to take or refuse the song on any given round. At the beginning of the round, on his turn he chooses wether he has the song, on again, off again on again, at will round by round.

How many rounds do you really think magi cast.

The bloodrager can use HIS rage benefits from the skalds song, without spending his own blood rage uses, AND he's not fatigued when it's done.

(plus an archer can only use a STR damage bonus if he has a compound bow with enough bonus to handle it.)

Your character is unconscious and bleeding? Unconscious characters automatically receive the benefit of rage song, meaning they could be conscious with the extra con bonus.

The rage song does get more powerful, and there are things like rage powers everyone can benefit from. Renewed vigor?

Read the class ability before you think it's a rage you get slapped with and shuts off class abilities, because it's not that.
Pendagast wrote:


How many rounds do you really think magi cast.

The bloodrager can use HIS rage benefits from the skalds song, without spending his own blood rage uses, AND he's not fatigued when it's done.

(plus an archer can only use a STR damage bonus if he has a compound bow with enough bonus to handle it.)

That's just the thing, the magi can cast cantrips every round for a free extra attack. If its a dex build, not all that unlikely, two handing his weapon will net him little to nothing, while continuing to cast is much in his favor.

As you've noted yourself, the archer gets next to nothing, and will get literally nothing until he gets an adaptive bow.

The bloodrager is the only one that would seriously benefit from this, and not enough to make up for the loss to entire rest of the team.

Be a whip bard who uses performance, tries to trip everything that can be tripped, and casts spells as appropriate.
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Whip is a trap.

Aasimar Buffer Bard. The entire party is martial so will get giant value out of it. Of course, he has to want to play a buffer. Heres the bases of the build:

All FCB's into Aasimar FCB: + 1/2 level to one bardic performance (inspire courage)

Feats:
Flag Bearer
Extra Performance
Master Performance (Inspire Courage)
Grand Master Performance (Inspire Courage)

Items:
Banner of the Ancient Kings

By level 9 he's granting +6 to attack/damage the first round of combat
Inspire Courage (9 +4 from FCB's + 4 from Banner of Ancient Kings for level 17) for +4 competence bonus on attack damage
Flag Bearer + Banner of the Ancient Kings for +2 morale bonus attack/damage
Along with +4 morale bonus vs charm and fear

This is before any other buff spells (such as Haste)
Even if he doesn't want to go Aasimar it is a valid build, it just fall off a little in the middle, but only ever by +1 to attack/damage.

Thats enough bonuses to even make the bard a decent skirmisher if he wants to pick off on the outside of the battlefield. He can also focus on spell support (recommended).

AND/OR he can focus on the Aid Build after that:

Weapon:
Whip

Trait:
Adopted: Helpful (Halfling) +1 to aid another

Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Body Guard
Arcane Strike
Combat Expertise (Optional)
Swift Aid (Optional)

Items
Ring of Tactical Precision (+1 to Aid Another)
Gloves of arcane striking (Add arcane strike bonus to aid anothers on damage/AC)
Benevolent Whip (Add enhancement bonus to aid anothers on attack)

So you end up with
Aid Another: +4
Aid Another to AC Combat Reflexes x's per round: +4+Arcane Strike Bonus
Aid Another to attacks (twice per round): +4+Whip Enhancement Bonus and + arcane strike bonus to damage

Obviously combining these 2 eats up most the characters build. If he focuses on long term buffs and maybe 1 or 2 start of combat buffs, then pulls out his whip and follows his allies around he should shine, or, more so, he makes his allies REALLY shine. because of the massive buffs to attack he actually can fight decently well if he doesn't want to aid his allies on attacks, and can cut two feats out.

Anyway, thats my favorite bard build. Run it by him, its not for everyone but its pretty much the iconic "support" bard.

So final build would look something like this:

Aasimar Bard Azata
S. 10
D. 18
C. 12
I. 12
W. 12
C. 18

FCBs: Through level 8 into Inspire Courage

Trait: adopted: helpful

1. Flag bearer
3. Extra Performance
5. Master Performance
7. Grand Master Performance
9. Combat reflexes
11. Body guard
13. Arcane strike
15. Combat Expertise
17. Swift Aid

Items
Ring of tactical precision (+1 to aid another)
+5 benevolent whip
Gloves of arcane striking
Banner of the ancient kings

Potential Spells (focusing on not only party buffing, but helping control the battlefield and debuff enemies as those seem to be lacking. Bard isn't great at that, but he does have some useful spells to help out. Not sure of the best high level spells:
1st:
Grease
Feather Fall
Feather Step
Liberating Command

2nd:
Glitterdust
Silence (shut down casters)

3rd:
Haste
Confusion
Slow
Fear

4th:
Dominate Person
Freedom of Movement
Wall of Sound

5th:
Shadow Bard: For Dirge of Doom

6th:
Waves of Ecstasy
Silas Hawkwinter wrote:
Whip is a trap.

+1. It'll eat yer feats.

One of my players once had a gnome bard who was part of a circus who would juggle sickles for her performance. Used it to fascinate bad guys and would then hurl the sickles at them mid-performance.

Looking at the Bard, I don't know why anyone would want to trade out Inspire Courage for anything, That just screams what this guy likes to do.
He loves support classes in MMO's.

The idea of taking an Inspired Blade level isn't a bad idea and would make him fairly decent in combat as well.

The Bloodrager is the Elemental bloodline and Spelleater Archetype. Archer character is maxed on strength with his strength bow and I think he'd rather have something placed on his bow that gives bonus damage every shot instead of "when this is cast" type of enchantment.

My Duskblade character is as follows, for those curious.

Duskblade:
Hit Die: d8.

Starting Wealth: 4d6x10gp (avg. 130gp)

Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex); Craft (Int); Intimidate (Cha); Knowledge (Arcana) (Int); Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int); Knowledge (Engineering) (Int); Knowledge (History) (Int); Knowledge (Local) (Int); Knowledge (Nature) (Int); Knowledge (Nobility) (Int); Knowledge (Religion) (Int); Knowledge (Planes) (Int); Perception (Wis); Ride (Dex); Spellcraft (Int); and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Spells: A duskblade casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the duskblade spell list. To learn or cast a spell, you must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against your spell is 10 + the spell level + your Int modifier.
You can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Your base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1—3. In addition, you receive bonus spells per day if you have a high Intelligence score (see Table 1—1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8 of the Player's Handbook).
A duskblade's caster level is equivalent to his class level.

Spells Known: You begin play knowing one 1st-level spell, chosen from the duskblade spell list. You also know one additional 1st-level spell for each point of Intelligence bonus. You also all the cantrips on the list and may be cast again immediately after you cast them without using spell slots.
Each time you gain a new class level, you learn one additional spell of any level you can cast, chosen from the duskblade spell list.

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every subsequent odd-numbered level, you can choose to learn a new spell in place of one you already know. In effect, you lose access to the old spell in exchange for gaining the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level spell you can cast. For instance, upon reaching 9th level, you could trade in a single 1st-level spell (two levels below the highest-level spell you can cast, which is 3rd) for a different 1st-level spell. You can swap only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that you gain new spells known for the level.

You need not prepare spells in advance. You can cast any spell you know at any time, assuming you have not yet used up your spells per day for that spell level.

Armored Mage (Ex): Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures, which can cause spells to fail if those spells have a somatic component. A duskblade's limited focus and specialized training, however, allows you to avoid arcane spell failure so long as you stick to light armor and light shields. This training does not extend to medium or heavy armors, nor to heavy shields.

At 4th level, you learn to use medium armor with no chance of arcane spell failure. At 7th level, you learn to use a heavy shield with no chance of arcane spell failure.

Bonus Feat (Ex): The duskblade gains bonus feats at levels 1, 4, and every 4 levels thereafter. These can be Combat or General feats.

Somatic Weaponry (Ex): At 1st level, your specialized arcane combat training allows you to use a weapon to trace your somatic arcane gestures to cast your spells. When holding a weapon/shield (or object of comparable size) in one or both hands, you can use that item to trace the somatic component of a spell, rather than using your fingers. This allows you to cast spells with somatic components even while your hands are full or occupied, as long as at least one hand is holding an item of the proper size.
This feat doesn't allow you to use somatic components while grappling, regardless of the size of your foe.

Combat Casting: At 2nd level, you gain Combat Casting as a bonus feat.

Arcane Channeling (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know and deliver the spell through your weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved; if the spells duration lasts for predetermined number of rounds (i.e. Chill Touch) then the spell will continue to be channeled until the duration expires or until the duskblade channels a new spell.

At 13th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round.

Quick Cast: Beginning at 5th level, you can cast one spell each day as a swift action, so long as the casting time of the spell is 1 standard action or less. You can use this ability twice per day at 10th level, three times per day at 15th level, and four times per day at 20th level.

Spell Power (Ex): Starting at 6th level, you can more easily overcome the spell resistance of any opponent you successfully injure with a melee attack. If you have injured an opponent with a melee attack, you gain a +2 bonus on your caster level check to overcome spell resistance for the remainder of the encounter. This bonus increases to +3 at 11th level, to +4 at 16th level, and to +5 at 18th level.

Spell Penetration (Ex): At 12th level, you gain Spell Penetration as a bonus feat.
Silver Crusade
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Your allies lack a divine caster. Your allies have lots of melee ability. An evangelist cleric would clearly be optimal. An Evangelist is the love child of a bard and a cleric. An evangelist has the best buffs in the game, is a Tier I full caster, and can easily be a melee beast. Here are details about some options.

Your friend's battle tactics can range from 'I stay in the back to buff & heal', to 'I summon monsters to destroy the foe', all the way to 'I whack it with a big stick for huge damage'. Evangelist Clerics make terrific summoners: Augment Summons stacks with Inspire Courage.

P.s. As you have likely figured out by now, Magda evangelizes being an Evangelist Reach Cleric.
Eigengrau wrote:

He loves options and being the charisma face of the party.

What would you recommend?

Maybe something like this...

Human Bard
Focused Study, Bonus hit point level levels 1-3, Human FCB for Bards after that

Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 10
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 10
CHA - 16 (+2)

Traits:
Community Minded
Reactionary

Feats:
1st - Weapon Finesse
1st - Skill Focus: Perform (Comedy)
3rd - Weapon Focus: Rapier
5th - Dazzling Display
7th - Motivating Display
8th - Skill Focus: Survival
9th - Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Touch of Rage)
11th - Discordant Voice
13th - Violent Display
15th - Arcane Strike
16th - Skill Focus: Perform (Oratory)

Open up with buffs like Inspire Courage and Good Hope, then on the next round Dazzling/Motivating Display, then aid the group in whatever way most benefits them. You'll have tons of spell options to choose from, and Community Minded + Touch of Rage makes for a hell of a buff as you level up.

One level of Fighter would make all of this happen faster, but would delay your Bardic progression a touch.
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Magda Luckbender wrote:

Your allies lack a divine caster. Your allies have lots of melee ability. An evangelist cleric would clearly be optimal. An Evangelist is the love child of a bard and a cleric. An evangelist has the best buffs in the game, is a Tier I full caster, and can easily be a melee beast. Here are details about some options.

Your friend's battle tactics can range from 'I stay in the back to buff & heal', to 'I summon monsters to destroy the foe', all the way to 'I whack it with a big stick for huge damage'. Evangelist Clerics make terrific summoners: Augment Summons stacks with Inspire Courage.

P.s. As you have likely figured out by now, Magda evangelizes being an Evangelist Reach Cleric.

This is good advice. You'll be hurting some on skill points here but if you go with the Heroism (Glory) subdomain you'll be the best buffer in the game and have some strong face skills due to Touch of Glory.

At 8th level, in the opening round, that character can summon an Augmented creature as a standard action, begin an Aura of Heroism as a swift action, and Inspire Courage as a move action. That's all kind of win right there.
Grand Lodge

I feel dazzling display is a waste of feats when you Learn Dirge of Doom. A no save Performance that can be activated prior to your spell casting to lower their saves by -2. By level 8 with lingering performance you can easily Performance switch and keeps buffs rolling and debuffs rolling out.

But some solid Feats on a bard are:
Discordant Voice (level 11), Lingering performance (always pick over extra), Improved Initiative (go first to get the buffs up).

I take them as core Bard feats.

The other feats need to be decided on if your a caster or your going to be contributing to damage. I would avoid weapon feats all together and focus on your skills, spells, performances, and masterpieces.

Your current Group make up has lots of damage output already but lacks real Control of the battle field.

As far as buffing goes Your Performances with Lingering performance should be more then enough until you get Haste/Slow.

A Evangelist cleric is another option to go as well. I feel a good summoner or enchanter focus would do really well to help the group out and do a little of what the bard does but trades the skills for 9th level spells. Also provides a a full prepared divine caster to the group.

Blistering invective makes it a waste tbh.
Grand Lodge

Blistering invective is a spell of standard action.

Dirge of doom is 1 performance round that is a move action and eventually a swift action.

When it comes to action economy and resource management Dirge of doom is superior. But if you trade away dirge of doom then blistering invective is a good pick. If you get dirge of doom a 2 level spell is not worth 1d10 fire damage reflex for half.
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Blistering invective is a spell of standard action.

Dirge of doom is 1 performance round that is a move action and eventually a swift action.

When it comes to action economy and resource management Dirge of doom is superior. But if you trade away dirge of doom then blistering invective is a good pick. If you get dirge of doom a 2 level spell is not worth 1d10 fire damage reflex for half.

You could get Improved Dirge of Doom and use both to frighten enemies.

Blistering Invective comes online way earlier at level 4. Anyway later on sure you might want to use shadow bard to run Dirge of Doom and something else (inspire courage).

Blistering Invective also doesn't interrupt your other performance and uses the demoralize rules. Demoralize isn't actually called out as mind affecting or a fear effect and neither is the spell itself.

Sure language dependent mostly overlaps mind affecting, but I think constructs can have languages without having minds, and anything immune to fear will shrug off Dirge, but not Blistering Invective.
Grand Lodge

Dirge doesnt interrupt your other performances when you have lingering performance and can use a swift action to inspire. A move action to dirge and a standard action cast.

Your group has 3 rounds of your inspire/discordant voice while you keep someone on lock down with shaken condition and what ever spell you throw on them.

Sure you get blistering earlier when 1d10 is ok but come later it is a spell I would relearn because of your limited daily spell casting.

And I do like the idea of improved DoD but havent gotten to try it out yet to see for myself.

That trick with lingering performance doesn't work. There are very few ways of running multiple performances simultaneously.
The Exchange

any thoughts on thunder callers?
countchocula wrote:
any thoughts on thunder callers?

Yep: They are broken and really not bards at all. Nothing Bardic left in Thundercallers.

Silver Crusade
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I don't recommend playing a casting bard. If that's what your going for Evangelist Cleric is much better. If your looking to make a effective bard that can cover a lot of empty holes like this group has. I recommend going with Human, or Aasimar bard with no archetype. I would pick human if you want a more over all skilled bard, and Aasimar with there favored class bonus for more combat focused.

My recommendations generalized.
1: Do what you can to act first to get buffs up. This is one of the most important things you can do as a group buffer. Most fights don't last past round 2. So missing buffs for half the fight for a buffing class really stinks.

2: Have a plan on what you do in combat other then performance, and casting. You will be using performance all the time. However you can do a lot when you are preforming. And you don't have enough spells per day to be using them with out good cause.

3: Spend a skill point in every knowledge skill. This will give you a roll, and your knowledge skills will be better then any one in your group. Pageant of the peacock is so broken I don't see any GM with common sense letting it in there game. However if it's allowed take it and abuse the hell out of it.

4: Feet's
Master Performance, Grand Master Performance (great feet if your GM will let you take it. I have band them from my games. Due to the fact they are over powered.)
Flag Bearer (This feet is only good if you understand how it works, and read carefully. The feet requires you use one hand on the flag at all times. DM's call here that means you need one hand on the flag to use the feet and it can not be used for any other thing. Including using a two hand weapon with the banner of the ancient kings. Your DM can rule other wise. It can go either way RAI, or RAW. There has not been a clarification on it.)
Arcane Strike (Sold feet for any combat build.)
Discordant Voice (This feet has proven very effective, with out being game braking.)
Lingering performance (This is way more effective then extra performance.)
Improved Initiative (Going first is very important to any buffer.)
Grand Lodge

Flag bearer is ok. Great once you can afford 18k on a banner of ancient kings. But if you dont wanna go that route a wand of bless does the same thing.
Silver Crusade
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Flag bearer is ok. Great once you can afford 18k on a banner of ancient kings. But if you dont wanna go that route a wand of bless does the same thing.

I just cast good hope when I play my bard. It has the advantage of affecting saves, skill checks, to hit, and damage, That or heroism for duration and skip on the damage. I find as much better options then flag bear feet.

calagnar wrote:
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Flag bearer is ok. Great once you can afford 18k on a banner of ancient kings. But if you dont wanna go that route a wand of bless does the same thing.
I just cast good hope when I play my bard. It has the advantage of affecting saves, skill checks, to hit, and damage, That or heroism for duration and skip on the damage. I find as much better options then flag bear feet.

It's a toss up. Good Hope eats action economy (though a good party may be able to bust out a few fights with a single casting) while Heroism will eat up a lot of 3rd level spells, especially in a big party.

Flagbearer/banner of the kings is just always on and doesn't take resources...well it does take a hand, which depending on build may be VERY problematic or not an issue. It also bumps up your bard song by +1 most of the time. Lets you open with haste instead of good hope.

Both are good, just different and they complement different builds.
Grand Lodge

What self respecting bard doesnt get a lesser extend rod for his good hope spell? I know I do my best to have one by 6th level.
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
calagnar wrote:
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Flag bearer is ok. Great once you can afford 18k on a banner of ancient kings. But if you dont wanna go that route a wand of bless does the same thing.
I just cast good hope when I play my bard. It has the advantage of affecting saves, skill checks, to hit, and damage, That or heroism for duration and skip on the damage. I find as much better options then flag bear feet.

It's a toss up. Good Hope eats action economy (though a good party may be able to bust out a few fights with a single casting) while Heroism will eat up a lot of 3rd level spells, especially in a big party.

Flagbearer/banner of the kings is just always on and doesn't take resources...well it does take a hand, which depending on build may be VERY problematic or not an issue. It also bumps up your bard song by +1 most of the time. Lets you open with haste instead of good hope.

Both are good, just different and they complement different builds.

Nitpick, Heroism is a 2nd level spell for bards. There are many good 2nd level spells however. Craft Wand is a possible solution to the lack of spells/day (not allowed in PFS and crafting may not be practical in some campaigns), and IMO a better investment than Flagbearer where applicable.

Silas Hawkwinter wrote:
Nitpick, Heroism is a 2nd level spell for bards.

Oh, I got owned! You are correct, and that makes me like bards even more!

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