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(specific codes do not override the basic paladin code, they add to it)Specific trumps general. There's literally a listed rule called specific trumps general.
From Purities of Faith:
Paladins of all faiths have strict moral codes by which they must abide or risk losing their powers: they must protect the innocent, be truthful, respect lawful and just authority, and live with honor at all times. However, paladins of individual faiths live by additional strictures...
From Inner Sea Gods
Paladin/Antipaladin Code: Not all gods allow paladins among their faithful, but for those who do, this sidebar provides a sample code that a holy warrior of the faith would follow. Individual paladins may vary somewhat in terms of which aspects of a god's tenets they prioritize highest, and two paladins of the same faith may still have differing interpretations on how best to implement a god's divine mandates.
The rules seem split on that. I guess since ISG was printed last it supersedes PoF?
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Wouldn't it make more sense to say to the VC, "Why?" instead of a flat no? and wait for the explanation? After that, whatever reason you get, the trick is just to find a way to make it ok for your character to do it, or don't play. Switch to a different character or something I guess.
The problem with this as a solution is that if a player only has one character, they are punished for having this code built in. If it is a player that drove two hours for the event expecting to play their paladin and go do good and they are being told they hafta go pretend to be bad guys to make bad guys look bad, the option of either playing another character or going home isn't very good. Of course, if they knew beforehand that the mission wasn't paladin friendly, or if their code allowed them to lie in order to further the society's goals (which, as a neutral organization their code does not currently make exceptions for), or if we simply agreed to hand wave the whole code of conduct, they could sit at the table and roleplay reasons why they are ok with whatever nonsense their boss is asking them to do.
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Wouldn't it make more sense to say to the VC, "Why?" instead of a flat no? and wait for the explanation? After that, whatever reason you get, the trick is just to find a way to make it ok for your character to do it, or don't play. Switch to a different character or something I guess.The problem with this as a solution is that if a player only has one character, they are punished for having this code built in. If it is a player that drove two hours for the event expecting to play their paladin and go do good and they are being told they hafta go pretend to be bad guys to make bad guys look bad, the option of either playing another character or going home isn't very good. Of course, if they knew beforehand that the mission wasn't paladin friendly, or if their code allowed them to lie in order to further the society's goals (which, as a neutral organization their code does not currently make exceptions for), or if we simply agreed to hand wave the whole code of conduct, they could sit at the table and roleplay reasons why they are ok with whatever nonsense their boss is asking them to do.
These are the situations where creative solutions should be encouraged and rewarded. While the responsibility for upholding the Paladin's code lies in that player, it's also an opportunity for other players to share that burden. And have fun at their expense:
Guard (to Paladin): "Are you a Pathfinder?
Rogue (stepping in): "Him? He's a freaking Paladin of Iomedae. You think he'd risk sullying his fancy armor in that hive of scum and villainy? He's too busy healing lepers and putting down zombies and what have you..."
Guard: You're a Paladin?
Paladin: I am.
Guard: Great! Can you look at this boil? It keeps coming back and the clerics here don't know what to do about it.
Paladin: ...of course.
Guard: It's on my butt. Well technically in. Half in, half out, I guess.
Rogue: Have at it, noble knight![/b]
Paladin:
The party proceeds, a resource is spent as a bribe(?) of sorts, everyone has a good laugh and you move on.
Not every single encounter has to be a True Test of the Paladin's Loyalty™. Players and GMs who go out of their way to make it so are making things tedious and unnecessarily complicated.
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Wouldn't it make more sense to say to the VC, "Why?" instead of a flat no? and wait for the explanation? After that, whatever reason you get, the trick is just to find a way to make it ok for your character to do it, or don't play. Switch to a different character or something I guess.The problem with this as a solution is that if a player only has one character, they are punished for having this code built in. If it is a player that drove two hours for the event expecting to play their paladin and go do good and they are being told they hafta go pretend to be bad guys to make bad guys look bad, the option of either playing another character or going home isn't very good. Of course, if they knew beforehand that the mission wasn't paladin friendly, or if their code allowed them to lie in order to further the society's goals (which, as a neutral organization their code does not currently make exceptions for), or if we simply agreed to hand wave the whole code of conduct, they could sit at the table and roleplay reasons why they are ok with whatever nonsense their boss is asking them to do.These are the situations where creative solutions should be encouraged and rewarded. While the responsibility for upholding the Paladin's code lies in that player, it's also an opportunity for other players to share that burden. And have fun at their expense:
Guard (to Paladin): "Are you a Pathfinder?
Rogue (stepping in): "Him? He's a freaking Paladin of Iomedae. You think he'd risk sullying his fancy armor in that hive of scum and villainy? He's too busy healing lepers and putting down zombies and what have you..."
Guard: You're a Paladin?
Paladin: I am.
Guard: Great! Can you look at this boil? It keeps coming back and the clerics here don't know what to do about it.
Paladin: ...of course.
Guard: It's on my butt. Well technically in. Half in, half out, I guess.
Rogue: Have at it,...
A lot of people seem to think that honesty and honor is just about only saying literally true things, but I'm pretty sure that is not the intent of the paladins code. Being misleading is just as dishonorable as pointing over a guys shoulder and saying "hey look at that thing" and then stabbing him in the back. You led them to believe you were someone you aren't, how is that not lying?
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It's more reasonable than sending said paladin on the mission. They have a code. I don't see in the rules where it says they get to be flexible on it because their boss wants them to make the apsis consortium look bad.Really?
So the paladin should say to the VC "sorry, but if there's a good chance I'm going to be asked if I'm a Pathfinder, I won't lie under any circumstances. That's my code. If that means I can't be a Pathfinder today, so be it."
C'mon, that's not reasonable.
There's a grey area, though.
There's a difference between an outright lie "no, I'm not a Pathfinder"
and your contextual lie "Am I a Pathfinder? Look, I'm just trying to make some sense of this big mess you've all found yourselves in, and it only seems right that you go to some effort to help, surely?"
One can be afforded leeway, the other can't.
To say there's no way you can afford that leeway, ever, in any circumstance, is outright unfair on the paladin. Any deity would realise that.
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And no character can cast any alignment-based spell unless their alignment exactly matches that of the spell.
I'm sorry but this is just not true, If it were then no character could cast evil spells in pfs. Only divine spellcasters, and not even all of them, are disallowed from casting spells with alignments that conflict.
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There's absolutely nothing that contradicts paladins to use stealthy means to reach an end, such as, you know, use Stealth and guile to pass an adversary. Heck, paladins can even use feinting in combat. Outright lying, on the other hand, now that's a big no-no. But, not telling the whole truth is not lying, per se. Or you could just stay silent and let the others do the talking. Surely as an enlightened warrior you understand that sometimes it's better to shut your mouth, than to cause needless violence. Also, within their code, there is a note that Paladins ARE allowed to work with "lesser evils" as long as this co-operation leads to the greater evil's demise. Without breaking their code.
That said, I think you should BAN min/maxed int & wis 7 paladins. Being a retard and stupid isn't going to do good to anyone. Including yourself.
The examples I am talking about are missions where there is no greater evil to be demised. Would you agree that if the mission is just to besmirch the name of an enemy organization or to tamper with the political structure of a foreign country the cooperation with lesser evils is not serving the greater good? I am asking based on actual pfs missions, while trying not to be spoily. If you show up and are told as the paladin you are to go to a country, lie about being a pathfinder, steal a local artifact, and put whichever evil local crime family in charge that you feel you happen to like more, would you not feel that the core of the mission breaks your code?
Can anyone name a mission in pfs where the mission briefing tells you to break the code of conduct for any other class/ archetype?
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HereI see you have a paladin oath of vengeance character. Had any problems in game with that?
Don't forget from the Cheliax faction . No actually it has been nothing but fun and cookies delicious smite filled rp cookies
Nor have I ( to the extent of my knowledge ) infringed on anyone else's fun playing as a paladin it's a player issue not a class issue.
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HereI see you have a paladin oath of vengeance character. Had any problems in game with that?Don't forget from the Cheliax faction . No actually it has been nothing but fun and cookies delicious smite filled rp cookies
Nor have I ( to the extent of my knowledge ) infringed on anyone else's fun playing as a paladin it's a player issue not a class issue.
I have to agree.
I too play an Oath of Vengeance Paladin of Ragathiel and never had problems in a PFS game.
In fact, most other players are happy you are an Oath of Vengeance paladin. Oath of Vengeance paladins are usually able to see the bigger picture. Aka, kill the boss, not the minions/informants/redeemable.
i have had plenty of issues with paladins in home games due to their code, but then, transient homicidal orphans are a dime a dozen anywhere. so meat shields for mine and my boyfriends fey blooded loligoths are easy to come by. thing is, we don't play the murderers, we play the setup crew they allows the murderers to get in the situation needed to pull the trigger with best results. usually buffers, debuffers or controllers. thing is, we had paladins that don't like that because it's not "honorable"
Venture-Lieutenant, South Dakota—Rapid City
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A lot of people seem to think that honesty and honor is just about only saying literally true things, but I'm pretty sure that is not the intent of the paladins code. Being misleading is just as dishonorable as pointing over a guys shoulder and saying "hey look at that thing" and then stabbing him in the back. You led them to believe you were someone you aren't, how is that not lying?
But on the same token, would not completing a mission you were assigned also be dishonorable? Which dishonor is greater than the other?
I ask because, to me, it sounds like your interpretation of the rigidity of the paladin code is different than mine. And that's OK.
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A lot of people seem to think that honesty and honor is just about only saying literally true things, but I'm pretty sure that is not the intent of the paladins code. Being misleading is just as dishonorable as pointing over a guys shoulder and saying "hey look at that thing" and then stabbing him in the back. You led them to believe you were someone you aren't, how is that not lying?
I think that this may actually be the crux of the problem.
If a paladins code is interpreted too harshly then a paladin IS unplayable, even in a home game. With this interpretion it is totally trivial to make a paladin fall by putting them into a position where they tell a white lie or hurt someone.
PFS absolutely requires players and GMs to interpret ALL moral codes flexibly. Only in the most egregious circumstances does the GM tell the player what their character can't do. Only in the most egregious circumstances does a character refuse to cooperate with the group. Only in the most egregious of circumstances does a character try to impose their moral outlook on a group.
Adults play nice together.
I've played several characters with a strong set of morals in PFS (including a paladin to level 11). I've failed faction missions that I've refused to do. Once I nearly had to refuse a mission (ie, I was going to change characters after the briefing) but the GM was able to work with me to convince me that I COULD participate in good conscience. I've caused missions to proceed in unscripted ways because of my morals.
As long as adults play nice together there really are only minor issues.
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The idea that a paladin can't lie is a fallacy. Telling a lie is not an evil act, being dishonest is not an evil act. Even then, there are ways of telling half truths in a way which offers no false information.
There are a lot of scenarios where you are supposed to conceal the fact that you are a pathfinder.
If telling an NPC "No, I am not a pathfinder" is really deemed as evil in your game the issue is not with being a paladin or LG it is with the GM and other player’s idea of what being LG or a paladin means.
Several example conversations follow for those uncomfortable with straight up lying:
example #1
NPC: “What brings you to town?"
Paladin PC: "I am a traveling follower of (Insert deity here), my travels brought my path to your town"
NPC: "word to your mother, thanks for the explanation"
example #2
NPC: What are you a pathfinder?"
Paladin PC: “I have heard of the pathfinder society before and while I think they do some good works they are certainly no order of paladins. I know that the Pathfinders’ have been mixed up in some shady business in the past and I can assure you that I carry no wayfinder"
NPC: (assumes response means they are not a pathfinder but then realizes that the PC has dodged the question) "You have a voided my question, are you a pathfinder?"
Paladin PC: "Is not the wayfinder the sign of a pathfinder?"
NPC: "Yes but not every pathfinder has a wayfinder"
Paladin PC: "Then there is no way to prove that this town is not already heavily infiltrated with pathfinder agents, and yet you waste your time with me..."
NPC: “You have a gain avoided my question, are you a pathfinder?”
Paladin PC: “You seek a yes or no response even though by your own logic such a response is meaningless because of the dishonest nature of so many pathfinder agents. I beg you answer one more question for me good sir, (insert rest of conversation here)”
If the GM is gonna make an issue of it and demand a yes or no answer from you just so they can start a fight or make your paladin fall (which lying to say no would not do) then the GM is a douche and I would report it to the VC or VL.
(this only works if the Paladin doesn't have a wayfinder but then really, why would you have one because they are junk)
Also for all of the arguments that a paladin has to follow a code of honor....well the paladins codes are outlined in Inner Sea Gods and none of them mention telling the truth as a condition so get off it...Honor is subjective for the most part
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Just curious, on the matter of alignment, has any LN cleric/warpriest of an evil deity turn down or ruin a Pathfinder mission, cos completing such a mission would be considered a good thing and cause the cleric or warpriest to break the alignment of his/her faith?
Don't such classes also have alignment and tenets of faith to consider?
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Just curious, on the matter of alignment, has any LN cleric/warpriest of an evil deity turn down or ruin a Pathfinder mission, cos completing such a mission would be considered a good thing and cause the cleric or warpriest to break the alignment of his/her faith?
As long as their intentions are evil it shouldn't matter what the result is.
Hmm, I wonder if "For the Evuls!" is an acceptable battle cry for a cleric/warpriest of Asmodeus.
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The problem with this as a solution is that if a player only has one character, they are punished for having this code built in. If it is a player that drove two hours for the event expecting to play their paladin and go do good and they are being told they hafta go pretend to be bad guys to make bad guys look bad, the option of either playing another character or going home isn't very good. Of course, if they knew beforehand that the mission wasn't paladin friendly, or if their code allowed them to lie in order to further the society's goals (which, as a neutral organization their code does not currently make exceptions for), or if we simply agreed to hand wave the whole code of conduct, they could sit at the table and roleplay reasons why they are ok with whatever nonsense their boss is asking them to do.
As far as I can tell, this scenario you're talking about is really the core of the issue you're having with paladins.
First off, just because there are a minority of scenarios that are difficult for paladins to participate in is not a good reason to ban the class. Instead, it would be more constructive to discuss how to make these scenarios a little more palpable for paladins at the table.
Yes, this adventure is centered around posing as aspis consortium agents for the express purpose of damaging their relationship with the Lissala Cultists, and some activities that the group participates in during the mission go against the paladin code. But here are some ways around it.
1. Highlight in the mission briefing that the PCs are interfering with the operations of two evil organizations. The paladin is Severing Ties between some very bad people.
2. The Aspis Consortium is notorious for engaging in corrupt and shady business, and while posing as Aspis Consortium agents in the scenario, the PCs are actively making it more difficult for the Aspis Consortium to engage in their activities in the future by sabotaging some important engagements. You can spin this behavior to be for the greater good.
3. The goal of the Lissalan cultists is to revive their long dead High Priest, Krune, who is a Thassalonian Runelord, Wizard King, is incredibly evil, and whose revival poses a serious threat to all of Golarion. The religion itself worships an evil diety. They count evil creatures like Vampires among their faith. Anything that disrupts their activities is also undeniably for the greater good.
4. The sabotage of the Lissalan Cultists' hideout may be tough to swallow, but the Paladin can be present to ensure the safety of the group without directly engaging in said sabotage, and not violate the paladin code.
5. IIRC the temple you visit has been engaging in some dubious activities, something about sacrificing people, and the blood of a sacrifice is what got the creatures in the temple enraged. Seems like a paladin would want to learn a little bit about what's going on there and notify the authorities.
6. There's nothing problematic about the encounter at the bar. The paladin doesn't need to directly engage in the social portions.
7. The mistress of the brothel has some dealings with the consortium so learning about illegal activities while infiltrating could be of interest to the paladin.
8. The Cultists have a construct in their hideout that doubles as a sacrificial altar; if it gets a coup de grace with the knife it wields, the victim gets their soul banished to hell! Red Flags all over the place.
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
The paladin is disrupting the operations of two groups that harm innocents and are not really legitimate authorities. Seems legit.
With a good understanding of the mission, the paladin can find reasons to be in such a scenario. Just takes a little bit of effort, but that's part of the challenge posed by the class. It's stil doable.
There are ways around it. With some effort, the Paladin can make these missions not violate their paladin code.
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Just curious, on the matter of alignment, has any LN cleric/warpriest of an evil deity turn down or ruin a Pathfinder mission, cos completing such a mission would be considered a good thing and cause the cleric or warpriest to break the alignment of his/her faith?
Don't such classes also have alignment and tenets of faith to consider?
I can very easily see Clerics of Pharasma having a major issue with You Only Die Twice. But then I can also see the entire faith having a major issue with the PFS desecrating crypts and hording knowledge to the point of being rivals. Again, normally hand waved.
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As a member of the Red-Mantis, I've had several run-ins with Paladins. None of them have actually tried to Detect Evil around me that I'm aware of. If they had, they probably wouldn't be all that suprised to note that I've quite the aura. My God, He Who Walks in Blood, has granted me his boon. I revel in it, but many others may not.When I was still working my way into the guild, I was once the party's healer. While I did not get to join in on the bloodshed, my allies at the time did need some assistance negating incoming blows. Two sides of a coin, I suppose.
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The idea that a paladin can't lie is a fallacy. Telling a lie is not an evil act, being dishonest is not an evil act. Even then, there are ways of telling half truths in a way which offers no false information.
There are a lot of scenarios where you are supposed to conceal the fact that you are a pathfinder.
If telling an NPC "No, I am not a pathfinder" is really deemed as evil in your game the issue is not with being a paladin or LG it is with the GM and other player’s idea of what being LG or a paladin means.
Several example conversations follow for those uncomfortable with straight up lying:
example #1
NPC: “What brings you to town?"
Paladin PC: "I am a traveling follower of (Insert deity here), my travels brought my path to your town"
NPC: "word to your mother, thanks for the explanation"example #2
NPC: What are you a pathfinder?"
Paladin PC: “I have heard of the pathfinder society before and while I think they do some good works they are certainly no order of paladins. I know that the Pathfinders’ have been mixed up in some shady business in the past and I can assure you that I carry no wayfinder"
NPC: (assumes response means they are not a pathfinder but then realizes that the PC has dodged the question) "You have a voided my question, are you a pathfinder?"
Paladin PC: "Is not the wayfinder the sign of a pathfinder?"
NPC: "Yes but not every pathfinder has a wayfinder"
Paladin PC: "Then there is no way to prove that this town is not already heavily infiltrated with pathfinder agents, and yet you waste your time with me..."
NPC: “You have a gain avoided my question, are you a pathfinder?”
Paladin PC: “You seek a yes or no response even though by your own logic such a response is meaningless because of the dishonest nature of so many pathfinder agents. I beg you answer one more question for me good sir, (insert rest of conversation here)”If the GM is gonna make an issue of it and demand a yes or no answer from you just so they can start a fight or make your paladin fall...
I'm sorry, I was going off the part of the paladin code where it says they cannot lie
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The idea that a paladin can't lie is a fallacy.Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),
The codes get a bit more specific than that with Inner Sea Gods.
Iomedae, for example, bars base actions (selfish or immoral actions), but has nothing saying "Must always be tell the truth, even to the detriment of myself and my companions". Quiet the opposite, Iomedae's code does address extremist behavior in all directions:
I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior. I will strive to emulate Iomedae’s perfection.
A common sense clause, if you will.
Torag goes a step further:
I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others if need be.
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The idea that a paladin can't lie is a fallacy.Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),The codes get a bit more specific than that with Inner Sea Gods.
Iomedae, for example, bars base actions (selfish or immoral actions), but has nothing saying "Must always be tell the truth, even to the detriment of myself and my companions". Quiet the opposite, Iomedae's code does address extremist behavior in all directions:
I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior. I will strive to emulate Iomedae’s perfection.A common sense clause, if you will.
It is probably more helpful to use the paladin code provided for the deity in ISG, as that is specific to the deity and not some general fluff stuff.
On the topic of lying, here's an interesting bit from Torag's Paladin Code:
Paladin Code
Paladins of Torag are dedicated to protecting not just the lives but the way of life for those under their charge, and hold the ways of their chosen people as holy, especially when they are the centuries-old works and traditions of an entire race. Their tenets include the following affirmations.
- My word is my bond. When I give my word formally, I defend my oath to my death. Traps lie in idle banter or thoughtless talk, and so I watch my tongue.
- I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others if need be.
- I respect the forge, and never sully it with half-hearted work. My creations reflect the depth of my faith, and I will not allow flaws save in direst need.
- Against my people’s enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants. I will defeat them, yet even in the direst struggle, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag.
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So should I reiterate that most of the solutions are that I should just ignore the paladins code as written and find ways as a player and gm to excuse paladins from anything that could potentially cause their downfall? It seems like legalese to me, which is normally in the camp of LE. But hey, since I've seen my fair share of paladins being LE while pretending to themselves they are LG i suppose that's fine.
Mebbe the pfs guide should have a clause reminding gms that players can RP however they want as long as they aren't being jerks, because codes of conduct are not enforceable nor should they be. And players should be told that as long as they play nice, they can be as chaotic or evil as they wanna be while playing paladins, because we're all here to have fun and why should their class drawbacks ever come into play.
Oracles already ignore their curses, and I've seen barbarians act lawfully. Built in drawbacks for classes just make the game worse if they are enforced right? I mean, wizards prolly should be wearing plate mail and RPing it in a nice way and then spell failure chance goes away. I'm pretty sure most witches pretend like their familiar isn't a thing so that weakness never comes up. Druids can just buy stone plate so that solves one f their drawbacks.
The society at large seems fine with ignoring sections of the rules, as long as it helps the game go smoothly. Which is probably the right attitude. But as the player base grows, we keep getting these pesky new people that only read the rules, and the intro guide, and for some reason they don't all know which parts of the rules to ignore and which to enforce. It's all well and good that the people of the boards know how to act as adults, but should we not also have things like this listed in a place where new GMs and players can read? We expect everyone to know what "act like an adult" means while ignoring the fact that we disagree on what acting like an adult entails. We can't even agree on what the paladin code means, or whether or not there are rules for burrow.
If the goal of the society is to introduce new players to RPGs, would it not behoove us to clarify aspects of the game that have been a source of contention for years?
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The idea that a paladin can't lie is a fallacy. Telling a lie is not an evil act, being dishonest is not an evil act. Even then, there are ways of telling half truths in a way which offers no false information.
There are a lot of scenarios where you are supposed to conceal the fact that you are a pathfinder.
If telling an NPC "No, I am not a pathfinder" is really deemed as evil in your game the issue is not with being a paladin or LG it is with the GM and other player’s idea of what being LG or a paladin means.
Several example conversations follow for those uncomfortable with straight up lying:
example #1
NPC: “What brings you to town?"
Paladin PC: "I am a traveling follower of (Insert deity here), my travels brought my path to your town"
NPC: "word to your mother, thanks for the explanation"example #2
NPC: What are you a pathfinder?"
Paladin PC: “I have heard of the pathfinder society before and while I think they do some good works they are certainly no order of paladins. I know that the Pathfinders’ have been mixed up in some shady business in the past and I can assure you that I carry no wayfinder"
NPC: (assumes response means they are not a pathfinder but then realizes that the PC has dodged the question) "You have a voided my question, are you a pathfinder?"
Paladin PC: "Is not the wayfinder the sign of a pathfinder?"
NPC: "Yes but not every pathfinder has a wayfinder"
Paladin PC: "Then there is no way to prove that this town is not already heavily infiltrated with pathfinder agents, and yet you waste your time with me..."
NPC: “You have a gain avoided my question, are you a pathfinder?”
Paladin PC: “You seek a yes or no response even though by your own logic such a response is meaningless because of the dishonest nature of so many pathfinder agents. I beg you answer one more question for me good sir, (insert rest of conversation here)”If the GM is gonna make an issue of it and demand a yes or no answer from you just so they can start a fight or make your paladin fall...
I would allow a PC to do this, but I would use a bluff check and depending on clever or not they were use modifiers. As you are not your character and you may be snake tongued the paladin PC may not be as skilled from hiding his motives.
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We've given you some ways to manage to the problems you've presented and all you're doing is complaining that they don't fit with your ideas. You're not even taking the time to address the specific problems you have with the suggestions. How is anybody supposed to help you if you're not willing to invest a little effort into the conversation?
What exactly are you looking for? It certainly doesn't appear like you're seeking a solution.
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So should I reiterate that most of the solutions are that I should just ignore the paladins code as writtenNo... ignore the Paladin's code as it's being stupidly interpreted. And remember the following...
"Silence is not a lie."
What is that quote from? I agree that the code as written is monstrously prohibitive, and that if you go by RAW with it the class just doesn't work, but we go with RAW for Titan maulers don't we?
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We've given you some ways to manage to the problems you've presented and all you're doing is complaining that they don't fit with your ideas. You're not even taking the time to address the specific problems you have with the suggestions.
What exactly are you looking for? It certainly doesn't appear like you're seeking a solution.
I am looking for a solution that applies to people other than just me. I know other people who have had the same issue, but who do not want to take the time to post on the boards because they assume that the attitude will be the one I am getting. Namely that somehow these are all isolated incidents and that there is only a solution on a case by case basis.
What suggestions have been made that I have not made clear my specific problems with? I feel like I have been replying as fast as reasonable, to a lot of different threads here. For most of them I feel like I've been clear that just ignoring it or blaming the player is not a good solution.
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Common sense."Silence is not a lie."What is that quote from?
Ok I counter with "when truth is replaced by silence, the silence is a lie" - yevgeny yevtushenko
Maybe you guys aren't aware that the nature of honesty is a philosophical debate that has been going on for years? Seeing as how this is a game and we are all meant to have fun, why don't we try to remove the parts that could potentially bring us into age old debates?
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For most of them I feel like I've been clear that just ignoring it or blaming the player is not a good solution.
It's not our fault that you're choosing to take the feedback that "you're being too strict with the paladin code rules" as player blaming. And even if it was player blaming, it does not make it any less of a valid solution. It's a behavioral issue, and it requires a behavior change to resolve it. It's not even really player blaming, because it chiefly applies to GMs not handling the paladin code rules in a workable way.
What we are telling you is that the paladin code rules are being applied in a much more constraining way than they are intended, and it is making it impossible to play in society. It's a self inflicted problem.
You brought up scenarios that conflict with the paladin code, and some suggestions were made on how to justify participation in that mission comply with the paladin code.
We've also suggested that ISG offers what would likely be more workable and deity specific paladin codes that would pretty much entirely solve your problem.
If you're taking all this advice as "ignore the rules" then you're not really paying attention to what we're saying.
Like most social problems, there is no cure-all for this issue. It's just not going to happen.
but who do not want to take the time to post on the boards because they assume that the attitude will be the one I am getting.
We can't help people who don't ask for help.
The attitude you're getting is probably because you're accusing us of player blaming and twisting the advice we are giving you.
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Ok I counter with "when truth is replaced by silence, the silence is a lie" - yevgeny yevtushenkoCommon sense."Silence is not a lie."What is that quote from?
I'm aware, but I found that response too amusing not to share.
I don't agree with silence = lie, as otherwise we would all be lying to one another every day.
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Common sense."Silence is not a lie."What is that quote from?Ok I counter with "when truth is replaced by silence, the silence is a lie" - yevgeny yevtushenko
Maybe you guys aren't aware that the nature of honesty is a philosophical debate that has been going on for years? Seeing as how this is a game and we are all meant to have fun, why don't we try to remove the parts that could potentially bring us into age old debates?
Because then you're left with a blank sheet of paper.
As to metaphorical lies, "lies of omission" and "lies of silence" now you're TRYING to make the paladin fall. THAT'S the problem behavior, not paladins.
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So should I reiterate that most of the solutions are that I should just ignore the paladins code as writtenNo, most of the solutions are to stop ignoring the paladin's code as written.
I suppose you could see it that way. Can we at least acknowledge that the code can be interpreted in different ways? And that depending on how strictly it is interpreted, it can lead to bad games? And that it is good for the society as a while to remove things that lead to bad games more often than good ones?
I'm not saying people shouldn't roleplay being lawful good, but I fail to see how having the code of conduct enhances society play more often than detracts from it. People seem to find ways around it more often than not, at best it seems to be an unnecessary hindrance
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Common sense."Silence is not a lie."What is that quote from?Ok I counter with "when truth is replaced by silence, the silence is a lie" - yevgeny yevtushenko
Maybe you guys aren't aware that the nature of honesty is a philosophical debate that has been going on for years? Seeing as how this is a game and we are all meant to have fun, why don't we try to remove the parts that could potentially bring us into age old debates?
Because then you're left with a blank sheet of paper.
As to metaphorical lies, "lies of omission" and "lies of silence" now you're TRYING to make the paladin fall. THAT'S the problem behavior, not paladins.
If you remove the code of conduct from a paladin, what age old debates that bog down gameplay are still lurking in there? I pretty sure that most of the class is just a list of rules that are well liked by the majority of people.