600+ DPR with a crossbow!

[ElementalXX]

Zwordsman wrote:

Endless Ammunition wrote:

Price +2 bonus
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
Only bows and crossbows can be made into endless ammunition weapons—firearms and other projectile weapons cannot. Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon's wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition.
If the wielder attempts to load the weapon with other ammunition, the created arrow or bolt immediately vanishes and the wielder can load the weapon as normal. This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon. The created arrow or bolt vanishes if removed from the weapon; it persists only if fired. Unlike normal bow and crossbow ammunition, these arrows and bolts are always destroyed when fired.

You still need to "nock" the weapon which is pulling back the bow string or on a crossbow, pulling back the crank, lever, what have you. That is what takes the action to load.
This could probably work for a repeating crossbow though, as the crank action is specifically a free action and the loading is the full round (and it woudln't be loaded). For every other xbow though, the speed is set for the "load and set crank" . I.e. You still have to pull the lever to pull the string back then the arrow magically appears. the pulling the level to pull the string is the problem.

This enchantment would be nifty for a repeating light or hand xbow as a backup weapon though.

No, it says nock, it doesnt say reload. Nock is not a defined term.

[Zwordsman]

ElementalXX wrote:

No, it says nock, it doesnt say reload. Nock is not a defined term.

Guess we'll view it differently then. The game often implies/says to default to real world meaning for not defined system terms. So I view it as a default to the world definition. Which is below. So you still need to get the string ready which is what is taking the action (as drawing ammo is already a free action by the game rules, so nocking or "readying" to fire is what is taking the action.

1.a notch at either end of a bow for holding the string.
1.f it (an arrow) to the bowstring to ready it for shooting.

So I guess we view it differently, so we'll both default to GM's reading.
I do wish that enchantment just straight up provided arrows and auto loaded with specific saying it does.

[Bigdaddyjug]

Come to my PFS table with an endless ammunition crossbow and you aren't getting free reloads unless you have other feats or class features that allow it.

Plain English overrides whatever kind of rules wrangling you're trying to do.

[Claxon]

Nocking an arrow does have some rules for it.

Quote:

Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.

However, Endless Ammunition does not reduce the time it takes to reload. Endless Ammunition effectively creates an arrow out of magic and nocks its for you once the bow or crossbow is in the proper position. For a bow, it means only drawing back the string. Which is a free action. Reloading a crossbow includes pulling back the string and nocking an arrow. But the nocking portion is a non-action.

Endless Ammunition is basically only to give you a unlimited source of arrows for "free"*

*Free after paying for the cost of the enhancement.

[Whisperknives]

There is no point to endless ammunition, it is a +2 enchantment that does absolutely nothing more than if you had a 1.8k Efficient Quiver and just restocking it after the battle.

If it is ruled to eliminate reloading I will just deal with sucking at using a crossbow until I get 18K and save myself 3 feats, or as soon as I get one I retrain them.

By the wording of the item, you are paying +2 enhancement cost for a VERY minor convince that will never pay for itself.

[Bigdaddyjug]

If endless ammunition replaced the fired bolt wi another one just like it! it might be worth it as then you could fire adamantine bolts all day long for the price of 1 adamantine bolt.

[Kudaku]

I wouldn't say 'never'. Bolts cost 1 sp each, so once you've fired 180 000 bolts the enchantment's paid for itself! ;)

I wonder if the original intent was for the enchantment was to ease reload limitations and the price was accidentally left unchanged when they revised it, or if someone genuinely thinks unlimited mundane ammunition for a single weapon is worth a +2 bonus.

[Claxon]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

If endless ammunition replaced the fired bolt wi another one just like it! it might be worth it as then you could fire adamantine bolts all day long for the price of 1 adamantine bolt.

Nope, thats why you just cast abundant ammunition

[Zwordsman]

I bet originally it was meant to reload considering it's a +2 cost.. and you can cast abundant on a wand for ike what 750gold and a umd ?

[Claxon]

Zwordsman wrote:

I bet originally it was meant to reload considering it's a +2 cost.. and you can cast abundant on a wand for ike what 750gold and a umd ?

Doubtful, since that would only make it useful for crossbows and the enhancement isn't specific to crossbow.

[Bigdaddyjug]

In a home game, I would give a player 2 options:

1. It goes down to a +1 cost, but it always provides you with a piece base ammunition

2. It stays a +2 and it provides you with a replica of the last piece of non-magical ammunition you loaded into the weapon. So if you loaded a cold-iron arrow, it provides cold iron. If you loaded an adamantine arrow, it provides adantine.

[Torbyne]

You would need a clause about the bolt disappearing seconds after launch or as soon as the weapon was knocked again to prevent adamantium farming. Otherwise it should be a flat +1 or a fixed price additive for crossbows. *sigh* But for those of us who need to have printed rules in our games, it sure would be nice for a revision to inexplicable reload to allow full attacking by itself rather than being a weird side track to Crossbow Mastery. Maybe around level 6?

[Zwordsman]

Claxon wrote:

Zwordsman wrote:

I bet originally it was meant to reload considering it's a +2 cost.. and you can cast abundant on a wand for ike what 750gold and a umd ?

Doubtful, since that would only make it useful for crossbows and the enhancement isn't specific to crossbow.

Itd stil be unlimited ammo. it would be more usful for xbows, but not usles for nows.

But I cant see a +2 giving the benfits of only a lv 1 spell, eve ifbits always on.
I can however see a +2 giving a lv1 and lv2 spell though.
It wouldn't be the first thing that benefits some weapons more than others but stil benefits others,
Consider the money investments is the cost of a +3.