
Feragore |
TL;DR: Reincarnate is better by almost every metric for a raise spell except time and also has the very real possibility of improving a character. Downsides are mostly roleplay if you even consider it a downside.
Reincarnate just came up within our group and it caused quite a bit of debate with its nebulous rules interpretation and power level.
Here is the spell:
School transmutation; Level druid 4
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M, DF (oils worth 1,000 gp)
Range touch
Target dead creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none, see text; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than 1 week before the casting of the spell and the subject's soul is free and willing to return. If the subject's soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.
Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is reincarnated. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be reincarnated). A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being reincarnated. A spellcasting creature that doesn't prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell.
It's possible for the change in the subject's ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is advised to become a multiclass character.
For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the table below. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.
A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be reincarnated. The spell can bring back a creature that has died of old age.
d% Incarnation Str Dex Con
01 Bugbear +4 +2 +2
02–13 Dwarf +0 +0 +2
14–25 Elf +0 +2 –2
26 Gnoll +4 +0 +2
27–38 Gnome –2 +0 +2
39–42 Goblin –2 +2 +0
43–52 Half-elf +0 +2 +0
53–62 Half-orc +2 +0 +0
63–74 Halfling –2 +2 +0
75–89 Human +0 +0 +2
90–93 Kobold –4 +2 –2
94 Lizardfolk +2 +0 +2
95–98 Orc +4 +0 +0
99 Troglodyte +0 –2 +4
100 Other (GM's choice) ? ? ?The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn't automatically speak the language of the new form.
A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.
So the general consensus on the forums discussing the spell from 3.5 and Pathfinder* was that you keep your mental abilities and features and replace your physical ones, typically on a case-by-case basis. So reincarnating into a Dwarf would give you Darkvision as a physical trait, but not Stonecunning as that's born in through years of living in dwarven society.
Fair enough. But the problem is there's very few negative races and once you go outside of the playable races, you get some pretty ridiculous things. Even a troglodyte, often derided as a terrible race, gains +6 natural armor, three natural weapons and darkvision 90. You could probably even rule out the stench if the character still bathes rather than embracing a troglodyte's societal norms.
Not only this but the core mechanics of the spell are ridiculous.
- Spell level 4 is lower than any other raise spell.
- 1000 gold is by far the cheapest of all the raise spells, excluding Breath of Life. You can die twice (or even just commit suicide and reroll your body if you really didn't want to be a trog) and still come up ahead over Raise Dead's 7k total after adding the cost of the Restorations.
- 1 week is roughly on par with Raise Dead but does become the worst for duration of all the 'long-term' spells.
- It has the same body part requirements as Resurrection, a 7th level spell.
And that's not even counting the cheese. Replacing all your physical stats does stop it from stacking up each time you die, but you can still plan your character build to spend 3k gold down the line to double-up on your physical traits while keeping a set of mental racials. Or even stacking mental age bonuses.
Now sure, there's a small chance that an ability score penalty will break your character. But you can fix that with magical items or again just accounting that you might lose some abilities and going over prerequisites. Or reincarnating again; it's only 3k gold total after all.
Is there any balance to be found with the spell? Again, it's a 1-week Resurrection that's even cheaper than Raise Dead that has a very good chance of permanently improving your character, cast by a Druid two levels lower.
And that's not even counting the roleplay potential. But why is it also the mechanically superior spell? You'd never want to cast a Raise Dead if you've got this at hand.
*The only change between the two systems is the negative level change; generally a buff as 2k gold and two shots of Restoration is a lot cheaper and faster than gaining a whole level of XP.

Runelord Apologist |
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And that's not even counting the roleplay potential.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but the roleplay implications are one of the big balancing factors that make Reincarnate worse than other forms of resurrection. Regardless of how mechanically beneficial it is, very few characters that I've played would be willing to live out their lives as a completely different race, especially a giant smelly monster like a troglodyte; at the same time, blithely committing suicide to re-roll the dice is a little much to ask from someone already traumatized by dying and coming back in a completely foreign shell. Once reincarnated, you are a completely new being; none of the people you've met will ever recognize you, and you're dependent on your party to introduce you in any situation (or to keep you from being killed on sight as a member of a monster race, as the case may be).
On a more technical note, Reincarnate takes a full hour to assemble your new body, making it largely useless in a time-sensitive environment like a dungeon. It is also only available to druids, who are much less likely to be hanging around major cities in most settings; meanwhile, the one-week limit means you can't afford to spend too much time searching. Additionally, while some of the races do offer nice stat increases and traits, the value of those depends on the character. The player of a dervish-dancing human magus who loses their racial bonus to Dex, takes an additional -2 penalty, and gains three useless natural attacks is not going to be very happy as a troglodyte, regardless of the natural armor and Con boost.
A restoration is not going to remove the negative levels from Reincarnate, they cannot be over come.
Not sure where you got that idea. Restoration can remove permanent negative levels from Reincarnate just as easily as those from Raise Dead (which is to say, at 1000 gp each and with a week between castings).

Anzyr |
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Seriously? I'm sick of people like this, is this over powered, is this over powered. chances are you could break any feat, spell, or class ability and say these are the reasons that its OP. but guess what its probably not. I used to play with a guy like that and I left his group and a lot of his players came with me.
Most of my players prefer Raise Dead as it brings them back as what they wanted to be.
A restoration is not going to remove the negative levels from Reincarnate, they cannot be over come. So yea you could kill yourself twice but your now 4 levels behind the party, IMO that's a fair trade.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but you are mistaken. Let's look at the rules shall we?
The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is reincarnated.
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels temporary negative levels or one permanent negative level. If this spell is used to dispel a permanent negative level, it has a material component of diamond dust worth 1,000 gp.
So yes, Restoration can remove the permanent negative levels, at a cost 1,000 gp per negative level.
So ya.

Kobold Catgirl |
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A big disadvantage of Reincarnate is that, regardless of how cheap it is, the two Restorations remain a factor. A low-level party might be able to get the funds for a Reincarnate, but the equivalent of three Reincarnates? Overall, you still get hurt a lot by death. It's not huge, but it's worth keeping in mind.
Really, though, the disadvantage of Reincarnate is twofold: Roleplaying (even people who don't roleplay can get miffed if their elf ranger becomes a half-orc ranger, to say nothing of the gamers who want their characters to be "pretty") and mechanical.
Mechanical can be huge. Sure, you have a chance of getting better stats, but you also have a really good chance of getting stats that, while good, are unhelpful to your precise concept. Becoming a halfling is awesome for a rogue—not so much for a barbarian.
Thing is, you already picked your race out. You're happy with that race. Reincarnate only offers seven non-core races (bugbear, gnoll, lizardfolk, kobold, orc, troglodyte). Those are the only seven you didn't already have access to.
Of those, only orcs have higher than 1% chance. So, that's an 11% chance of getting something you didn't already have access to, and if you get in that margin? 1 in 11 chance of kobold. A f~&*ing kobold. That is not worth the risk.
Plus, of those eight races, every single one is shunned in polite society. Have fun getting stuff thrown at you, Mister Kobold. Have fun getting trampled by horses, Mister Goblin. Have fun not being allowed near the nursery, Mister Bugbear (hell, bugbears might just get shot on sight).
And that? Those 11%? That's the good outcome. Every other race on there is one you already turned down. What if your halfling cavalier with a wolf mount becomes a half-orc? What if your elf seductress becomes a goblin? The odds are drastically in favor of getting a race you didn't want. Reincarnate can ruin characters if the player isn't flexible with his vision for them.
There's a reason most adventurers would rather cough up for a raise dead. Sure, there's a chance of getting a good outcome, but that chance of a bad outcome is too prominent to ignore.

Atarlost |
KC's got it.
If you have a racial +2 in a physical stat it's gone.
Suppose you have +str. Most melee builds are strength based. 50% chance of a 2 point loss. 24% chance of a 4 point loss. 3% chance of a 6 point loss. That's a 77% chance of shafting your character. You have only a 6% chance of improving.
If you're +dex it's still bad. 53% chance of losing 2 points. 1% chance of losing 4 points. No chance at all of improving. Then there's the fact that size matters. If you're small 62% of the options that keep your dex require you to replace all of your equipment. If you're medium it's the other 38%. Going medium to small also turfs your strength and that cuts damage for everyone but crossbowmen and may make dervish dancers and swashbucklers catastrophically stop qualifying for power attack.
Nobody voluntarily puts a +2 in con, but dwarves happen. Dwarves are just screwed 88% of the time because if you're building a dwarf it's probably for hardy and steel soul. Oops.
Pretty much the only time reincarnate doesn't screw you over is if you're a human, half-human, or elven primary caster.

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I implement a house rule for consistency. Reincarnation means that ALL racial modifers, including mental ones from the old race are replaced by new ones. This means of course that you may have a different skill point total than you did before. Which is not a problem for me as the player gets to choose which skill points to jettison or add to make the numbers come out right. I encourage such players to roleplay a changed personality as they see fit.

ShiroK |
I implement a house rule for consistency. Reincarnation means that ALL racial modifers, including mental ones from the old race are replaced by new ones. This means of course that you may have a different skill point total than you did before. Which is not a problem for me as the player gets to choose which skill points to jettison or add to make the numbers come out right. I encourage such players to roleplay a changed personality as they see fit.
Not sure how that is a house rule. While i might not like it as i often play casters.
"First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."
No where does it suggest that is only PHYSICAL racial adjustments.

Blakmane |

LazarX wrote:I implement a house rule for consistency. Reincarnation means that ALL racial modifers, including mental ones from the old race are replaced by new ones. This means of course that you may have a different skill point total than you did before. Which is not a problem for me as the player gets to choose which skill points to jettison or add to make the numbers come out right. I encourage such players to roleplay a changed personality as they see fit.Not sure how that is a house rule. While i might not like it as i often play casters.
"First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."
No where does it suggest that is only PHYSICAL racial adjustments.
Uh, you have misquoted. Just before that line is "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body"

Matthew Downie |

For, say, a human cleric who's put their stat bonus into Wisdom, getting turned into a dwarf or half-orc is going to make you more powerful. However, this depends on you either being lucky or willing to die repeatedly to get a good race. Getting turned into a small race is really unhelpful unless you have one of those GMs who allows magic equipment to automatically change size to fit you.

Barkamedes |

I have had this spell used 3 times in the RotRL game I am doing
One player was a half Orc got half Orc so was pretty happy
2nd player was elf (heading to arcane archer) got dwarf so rolled up a new character ( we ruled the original character flipped out and took off as the change wad to much to bear )
3rd was a NPC the pcs were friendly with who died fighting with them and went from elf to human
A unreliable spell IMO but better than dead
( I have made a house rule a 100% result ends up with azlant for the new race)

Umbranus |

If anything, the list needs to be expanded. That's all.
If you are an aasimar, what are the chances of reincarnating on the same race? Nil.
Wait, what about heritage? Nope, gone.
Which is another reason to use the human percentage for the former race.
Besides: We had one case of reincarnate that I remember. A human rolled human. RAW he would have lost his +2 strength and got +2 con instead. The GM allowed him to Keep his stats but had him come back as a negro (gm rolled which kind of human/ethnic group he was).

Umbranus |
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Umbranus wrote:Well, this thread just got uncomfortable.The GM allowed him to Keep his stats but had him come back as a negro.
Why? Is it the term I used? If so I am very sorry, that was in no way my intend.
If it is about the pc being turned into another ethnic group, it could have been another way, too. A tian could have suddenly looked like someone from taldor. I didn't know the ethnic group I was talking about was from mwangi.
Umbranus |

Actually, the term "Negro" and "Colored" are deemed offensive.
So which is the English non offensive term? My school days are some time ago and things like connotation/denotation in foreign languages is always a difficult aspect.
One of my English teachers in school told me ordinary was an offensive word because she was of the opinion that it was the same as ordinär in German. Which again leo.org translates as raffish.

blahpers |
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blackbloodtroll wrote:Actually, the term "Negro" and "Colored" are deemed offensive.
So which is the English non offensive term? My school days are some time ago and things like connotation/denotation in foreign languages is always a difficult aspect.
One of my English teachers in school told me ordinary was an offensive word because she was of the opinion that it was the same as ordinär in German. Which again leo.org translates as raffish.
In the U.S. at least, thanks to a terribly sordid history, a great many terms that may once have been considered innocuous are no longer considered such due to the manner in which they were subsequently used. The one you chose carries some pretty harsh baggage and is generally frowned upon outside of white supremacist circles.
"With dark skin" or "as a different ethnicity" would have been a more polite choice of phrase. In Golarion, "as Mwangi" would be more specific.

Feragore |
A big disadvantage of Reincarnate is that, regardless of how cheap it is, the two Restorations remain a factor. A low-level party might be able to get the funds for a Reincarnate, but the equivalent of three Reincarnates? Overall, you still get hurt a lot by death. It's not huge, but it's worth keeping in mind.
While a Raise Dead and its two Restorations costs 7k. Like I mentioned in the OP, you can reincarnate twice and still come out with gold to spare over Raise Dead.
Mechanics wise, you're ignoring the physical trait bonuses. Natural armor, natural weapons (!) or even just better sight. Granted a kobold is still pretty bad, but that's why you can just reroll the table for another 3k total if it damages the build that much. A human doesn't even lose anthing; the feat and skill point isn't a physical trait.
Plus, of those eight races, every single one is shunned in polite society. Have fun getting stuff thrown at you, Mister Kobold. Have fun getting trampled by horses, Mister Goblin. Have fun not being allowed near the nursery, Mister Bugbear (hell, bugbears might just get shot on sight).
That's entirely DM fiat. Somewhat mitigated too by the fact you're still you. That goblin is curiously well-mannered and not trying to eat the town's young. And he's also travelling with a party of experienced adventurers. Maybe, just maybe, he's not evil.
Nevermind the value compared to Resurrection. I'd sure as hell pay 9k less to Reincarnate if I happen to get Disintegrated. Even if the race is worse, I still have that 9k gold to try again two more times. Or use the gold to buy magic items. Or buy a casting of Polymorph Any Object.

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Besides: We had one case of reincarnate that I remember. A human rolled human. RAW he would have lost his +2 strength and got +2 con instead. The GM allowed him to Keep his stats but had him come back as a negro (gm rolled which kind of human/ethnic group he was).
Out of context, I can't help but come to the conclusion that the GM made that change because he considered that it would have "shock value". And out of context that suggests nothing that can't but avoid opening an unhealthy can of worms.
Bu we do have it on the authority of Fox News and Larry Correia that racism in gaming is a thing that's not only of the past, but never was, right?

Faelyn |

Let's keep politics, racism, and other such hot topics out of the thread.
The point has been made.
Let's move on.
Agreed.
Now to the OP's suggestion that Reincarnate should only be looked at for a mechanical aspect... Sure, you could end up with something better for the build your character is based around, but that chance is pretty nil considering.
I agree with pretty much everyone else in this thread that by no means is it "Overpowered". You have to take roleplaying into consideration when the spell comes from a Roleplaying Game. I don't know of any person who would say "Oh cool! I'm now a (fill in the blank with whatever type of creature/race you want)! I know I spent my entire life as a (blank), but you know what... I like this +6 Natural AC bonus far better than my own body. Yes, I'd like to be persecuted wherever I go as a monster... That sounds fantastic."
As far as purposefully committing suicide to get them to use Reincarnate again? If I were the GM in that instance, I'd make the roll and stick you with something you'd utterly hate as that character. That's some serious cheese crap that shouldn't fly with any GM... In my opinion...

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[derail]
Actually, the term "Negro" and "Colored" are deemed offensive.
Originally an American problem that is overwriting the use of those words in all the world. At least in part of Europe they hadn't the offensive overtone they have in the Americas. In the last decades the influence of the US films and serials has made them offensive and made Black or its translations the non offensive term.
[/derail]
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Kobold Cleaver wrote:A big disadvantage of Reincarnate is that, regardless of how cheap it is, the two Restorations remain a factor. A low-level party might be able to get the funds for a Reincarnate, but the equivalent of three Reincarnates? Overall, you still get hurt a lot by death. It's not huge, but it's worth keeping in mind.While a Raise Dead and its two Restorations costs 7k. Like I mentioned in the OP, you can reincarnate twice and still come out with gold to spare over Raise Dead.
Mechanics wise, you're ignoring the physical trait bonuses. Natural armor, natural weapons (!) or even just better sight. Granted a kobold is still pretty bad, but that's why you can just reroll the table for another 3k total if it damages the build that much. A human doesn't even lose anthing; the feat and skill point isn't a physical trait.
Quote:Plus, of those eight races, every single one is shunned in polite society. Have fun getting stuff thrown at you, Mister Kobold. Have fun getting trampled by horses, Mister Goblin. Have fun not being allowed near the nursery, Mister Bugbear (hell, bugbears might just get shot on sight).That's entirely DM fiat. Somewhat mitigated too by the fact you're still you. That goblin is curiously well-mannered and not trying to eat the town's young. And he's also travelling with a party of experienced adventurers. Maybe, just maybe, he's not evil.
Nevermind the value compared to Resurrection. I'd sure as hell pay 9k less to Reincarnate if I happen to get Disintegrated. Even if the race is worse, I still have that 9k gold to try again two more times. Or use the gold to buy magic items. Or buy a casting of Polymorph Any Object.
So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death.
Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.
A trace of fine dust isn't a small portion of the creature body.
- * -
The part where you return in "an entirely new young adult body" is way more powerful than the change in race. It is ticket for agelessness and a potentially unlimited lifespan.

Kobold Catgirl |

While a Raise Dead and its two Restorations costs 7k. Like I mentioned in the OP, you can reincarnate twice and still come out with gold to spare over Raise Dead.
That also takes at least four weeks. Doesn't work in every campaign.
Mechanics wise, you're ignoring the physical trait bonuses.
Actually, I'm not. Again, you only have an 11% chance of getting any new options. You're quite likely gonna have to reincarnate more than once to get one of those, and even if you do, you run the risk of getting something like goblin or troglodyte—troglodyte is nice unless you're a Dex-focused character, and goblin is great unless you're trying to be intimidating or strong. Overall, the odds of getting something that really is purely beneficial are really low.
That goblin is curiously well-mannered and not trying to eat the town's young. And he's also travelling with a party of experienced adventurers. Maybe, just maybe, he's not evil.
Yeah, 'cause I'm gonna wait to see if the bugbear is friendly. Bugbears—the bogeymen of Golarion (not counting actual bogeymen), who love to terrorize, stalk, and play mind games with their victims.
If you're playing in somewhere other than Golarion, you're having trouble. If you're playing in Golarion, you're screwed.
And yeah, it's GM fiat. So's the spell. Hell, so's the PCs being able to find a friendly druid who'll work for hire. If the GM doesn't like Reincarnate, he doesn't have to use it. The rules (and you) also assume the players don't have access to many of these monstrous races already. A lot of GMs make kobolds, goblins, orcs and hobgoblins available. God, I'd hate to be a hobgoblin built off of a +2 Dex/+2 Strength and getting reincarnated.

Mudfoot |

I decided that Reincarnation was broken and replaced it with this:
Regrow Body
Transmutation
Level: Drd 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
This spell allows the caster to grow a new body for the dead creature as though it were a plant. It requires a piece of the body (at least a pound of flesh), which is buried in a sunny, fertile spot. Over the following full lunar month, it grows into a large (5 ft) cabbage-like cocoon, within which is an identical copy of the original body, with ageing effects but without scars or missing limbs.
During the growth phase, the growing plant should be fertilised, watered, kept clear of weeds and protected from herbivores, though this requires no special abilities beyond basic gardening or agriculture (DC5 applicable Profession or Knowledge-Nature). If the cocoon is significantly damaged in this period, the subject will die. The subject is unconscious and helpless for all this time. At the end of this period, the cocoon shrivels and dies, and the regrown body emerges. It will be physically weak and stiff (half Str and Dex; both recover in one day) but otherwise healthy.
The regrown body retains all its former abilities, except for the loss of one level (or 2 points of Con if it was 1st level). A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be returned to life by this spell.