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The two characters, entirely, but based on STR vs DEX. : P I really want to see how they vary from one another.... outside of the very obvious Class part. It's not competition, just a comparison.I'm sure I have a couple of 15th level fighter somewhere, what do you want to compare and how that is related to the dex vs str issue?That's fine! I'm just comparing is all. I'm more focused on the Str vs Dex outcome.
"Monks" can be built differently for the same thing. No worries.
Still waiting on you to post yours!
PS: Each round spell buffing is going to be subtracted from DPR!
I'm not too concerned with DPR. I just want to observe and compare. DPR can easily be screwed up by MANY sources.
Best STR Fighter or Barb vs my Level 15 MoMS-MoSM-Monk/2+Sacred Fist/13!!
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Overall Stats for Monk/SFWarpriest:
Str: 16(10 base), Dex: 27(16 base), Con: 18(12 base), Int: 12, Wis: 22(16 base), Cha: 7
195 HP, AC 40, Touch 31, Flat 32, Fort 20, Ref 20, Will 22
Attack of 26(Pummel); CMB 26(Pummel), CMD 43
Breakdown of Stats for Monk/SFWarpriest:
Str: 10 Base Str + 6 Enhancement(belt)
Dex: 16 Base Dex + 2 Racial + 3 Attribute Gain + 6 Enhancement(belt)
Con: 12 Base Con + 6 Enhancement(belt)
Wis: 16 Base Wis + 6 Enhancement(headband)
HP: HD8+Con(4) -> 12 x 15 levels = 180 + 15 Toughness = 195
AC 40: Base 10, AC Bonus(SFWarpriest)(6), Ring of Deflection +5(5), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier(1+1 Trait), Dex of 27(8), Bracers of Armor +8(8), Natural Armor +1(1)
Touch 31: Base 10, Dex of 27(8), Ring of Deflection +5(5), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier(1+1 Trait), AC Bonus(SFWarpriest)(6)
Flat 32: Base 10, AC Bonus(SFWarpriest)(6), Ring of Deflection +5(5), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier(1+1 Trait), Bracers of Armor +8(8), Natural Armor +1
Fort 20: Base 11, Cloak of Resistance +5(5), Con 18(4)
Ref 20: Base 7, Cloak of Resistance +5(5), Dex 27(8)
Will 22: Base 11, Cloak of Resistance +5(5), Wis 22(6)
Melee Attack 26: FBAB 14, AoMF +4w/Agile, Dex 27(8)
Base Melee Damage: 1d10+13
CMB 26: FBAB 14, Dex 27(8), AoMF +4(4)
CMD 43: Base 10, BAB 9, Dodge and Deflect(5), Str 27+Dex 18(11), Monk AC Bonus +6,Jingasa +1(1+1 Trait)
Feats:
Snake Style
Pummeling Style
Pummeling Charge(Bonus)
Snake Fang(Bonus)
Punishing Kick
Combat Style Master
Combat Reflexes
Weapon Finesse(Human Bonus)
????
????
????(Human/Warpriest Favored)
????(Human/Warpriest Favored)
Dragon Style(Style Bonus)
Jabbing Style(Style)
Abilities:
Aura, Blessing(minor), Orisons, IUS, AC Bonus, FoB, Fervor 4d6, Ki Pool(Lawful/Cold Iron/Silver/Magic), Blessing(Major), Channel Energy, Stunning Fist
Traits:
Fate's Favored
Quan Martial Artist
Spells:
Ugh. There are so many.
Edit: Channel Vigor
Divine Favor
Badger's Ferocity
Weapon of Awe
Deadly Juggernaut
Ki Leech?!
Greater Stunning Barrier
Wrathful Mantle
SO MANY OTHERS
Attack Sequence:
Free Action to drop into Stances
Swift to use Fervor to cast something enhancing Attack/Damage(Divine Favor?)
Standard to cast another spell to enhance Attack/Damage
Move in?
Othewise, Attack Sequence:
Pummeling Charge(6 Attacks) and/or Snake Fang(9 AoO), and occasionally use a Swift action to use Fervor to cast yet another self-buff if applicable. Pummeling+Dragon, then Snake+Jabbing. Stance Dancin fo free!
Advantages of Monk/SFWarpriest beyond Stats:
Cleric Spells(Up to 5th level) and Domains(1 Minor 1 Major)
Blessed Fortitude + Miraculous Fortitude
MOMS for Styles
Free Two-Weapon Fighting(Flurry of Blows really)
Ki Pool
+2 Saves vs Enchantment
FERVOR
Channel Energy
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I'm not sure what this accomplishes, but I'm intrigued now!
I assume we can settle on these Magic/Wonderous Items:
Cloak of Resistance +5
Belt of Physical Perfection +6
Ring of Deflection +5
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
One weapon, Enchanted how you wish
One Shield and Armor Enchanted how you wish
I'm a little lost on the 4 other standard Feats to take...
What's your Sense Motive? Pretty important if you are Snake Stylin'.
Slotless muleback cords cost 2000gp or 1500gp to add onto a cloak of resistance and is able to be made as per RAW. Makes carrying capacity a fairly moot point. If anyone has craft wondrous items it's 750gp to throw onto another cloak.Custom magic item creation is expressly under DM control.
Most DM's will say no.
I have played under no less than 20 GMs in as many years. I've only ever had one say that (and a year into the campaign, he had apparently forgotten his own ruling).
Well, my character creator died, but my dude (Tiefling Mutation Warrior Fighter, Qlippoth-Spawn
for blur) had more AC (a ton from armor, 1+1 from Jingasa, +8 dex, +6 natural armor (from Mutagen and Armor of the Pit), +1 dodge, +8 from bracers, +5 from amulet of natural armor), higher attack (about 35), plus WINGS. UNLIMITED USE OF WINGS. Pretty good Fly skill too.
To add, my dude had Fly-by Attack, Death from Above and Death or Glory (that's +9 to an attack, you get +4 on an AoO, but then I move right back out of your range since dude flies). It had pretty passable saves.
Plus, assuming you play a do-gooder, Mail of Malevolence gave him 23 SR. He was pretty cool anyhow.
There are already ways to add Wisdom, Intellect and Charisma to initiative, AC and Reflex.
There are, also, ways to add STR to ranged attacks (Belt of Mighty Hurling).
Do I think there should be a feat to replace the Belt? Yes. Stat conversion of that magnitude should be part of the package, not addons.
Do I think STR is in a good place? No, but you know what? Neither is Dex.
Remember - even with Dex to damage, you still need 13 STR for you that does NOTHING except qualify you for feats.
You can see a thread I've made before noting how little difference there is between a Dex-based fighter and a Str-based one.
The issue here is that STR should do a bit more - perhaps allow it to qualify for certain skills through traits (Disable Device, Acrobatics, etc.), or more stuff like Intimidating Prowess.
I have a question for everyone who believes that using Dex for damage is the way they like to do things. Would you allow feats in your game that allowed you (lets say 2 or 3 in total) to add Str to initiative, all ranged attacks, ac, and reflex saves? Even if you added that you only gain the benefits when using a weapon one handed (so no 1.5x str damage), and had to deal with Armor check penalties, and the like-this would seem over-powered to many people, myself included.
I think I would point out that those feats, while not being exactly the same, already exist. Improved initiative grants a bonus as if you had an eighteen dexterity, effectively eliminating that as a concern. Lightning reflexes grants +2 to reflex saves, which is equivalent to having another 4 dexterity. That is just two feats... A strength based martial will have comparable armor throughout the game, so I don't think that is worth as much as some claim.
So basically you already get this in the standard game, and the benefits cost about the same in terms of feat expenditure.
I would like to see a feat that allows strength based characters to add their strength modifier to acrobatics in addition to dexterity. This would also make acrobatics function better against large monsters.
Neither Improved initiative or Lightning reflexes are even close to being as good as adding Str to Initiative or AC (or both for the cost of one feat), they do not even compare. And so what if you can add Cha to AC or Wis to hit? What you want is one stat that can do ALL of that and more. I've played in games where people think that Dex should be added to damage, some adding it as a bonus of weapon finesse some as a separate feat that requires WF. Both ways are horrible in game, it creates so many situations that are unbelievable or cause balance issues.
I will say however that there are some situations where dex to damage isn't broken, but it is rarely.
Because CHA, WIS and INT do SOMETHING besides that.
DEX based characters need those secondary stats.
If DEX-to-damage existed, at the cost of two feats, STR based characters would get two extra feats and +3 points at character creation to gain similar bonuses to the ones you want STR to give, so it's a moot point.
Have you ever made a martial build and had two extra feats you didn't want to use? I've never had a similar situation.
AGAIN, I made two tentative builds above, and in no case is the Dex to damage user much better off than the STR user.
With 20 point buy, pumping a stat really high at creation comes at the expense of other stats. Even if you wanted to get really high Dex, you still need 13 STR (for Power Attack, and yes, two-weapon builds have Piranha Strike, but two-weapon builds have other glaring issues), plus good CON and WIS, plus INT depending on your build.
YES, every single half-martial who needs a high secondary stat will want to use DEX-to-damage, because they are already stat-starved.
To compensate, I think it would be good to create feats that give characters Armor Training like Fighters (allowing easy movement on heavy armors and reducing AC check penalties), but have a 13 and 15 STR requirement.
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Anlashok the situation that immediatley comes to my mind was with my last character a druid who had a small cat as an animal companion. By forth level I was getting +7 damage to each bite and claw attack (at first level each one was at +5), without any magic items, spells, or other feats. That is broken if you consider that same +7 went to AC, reflex saves, initiative, and its to hit (+5 at first level to all of those) all only from its dex. Imagine this type of problem applied evenly between players and monsters across all the levels, if it isn't an obvious problem to you then you may want to increase your understanding of how pathfinder is balanced.
Er, are you sure about these numbers? A 1st level small cat would have a dex of 21, increased to 22 at level 3, then reduced to 20 when it advanced to medium-size at level 4, with the ability score boost bringing it up to 21. That would be a +5 damage bonus from dexterity, not +7. It's looking at 1d6 for the bite and 1d3 for the two claw attacks. Near as I can tell that's an average damage of 22.5, assuming all attacks hit.
Let's compare it to the Big Cat at the same level. The big cat has a strength of 22 and a bite attack of d8, with two claws hitting for d6 each. The dice difference and higher strength modifier means it hits for an average of 29.5 damage assuming all three attacks hit, not counting rake, which would further slant the difference towards the big cat. Unlike the small cat it has pounce, which gives it a high chance of actually being able to make all three attacks. The big cat has a dex of 15 but gains more natural armor bonus, so the touch AC and reflex save will be about three points lower. Since it has at least one free feat (no need for Weapon Finesse) we'll give it Light Armor Proficiency and slap on chain shirt barding for a +4 AC bonus. 100 gp seems affordable by level 4.
The big cat has reach, grab, pounce and rake, and while the small cat gets sprint and a higher movement speed.
I don't know about you but I think those options look fairly well balanced.
Let's do a thought experiment: If the small cat does not get dex to damage, the comparison is the same except the small cat now has an average damage of 16.5 assuming all attacks hit. All in all it seems to me that the Small Cat is an extremely underwhelming choice compared to the big cat if you can't rely on dex to damage - which you can't, since dex to damage isn't an option for animal companions. If it was, the small cat would be well balanced with the big cat and a fairly viable AC.
If Dex has bonus to attack and damage, I feel that it would cause Strength builds to be overshadowed by Dex builds.
Sure, this will assist some of the underpowered MAD classes with a feat cost of 2, but it will also make some classes that are more reasonable in power be brought higher. Maybe even too high. I mean... Two Weapon Fighter Rangers which dont seem to be terrible, will get a pretty big bump in combat ability.
Another issue... In 4E, they had to add weapon expertise because the numbers weren't scaling properly, and it became a feat that all characters were basically required to get as to scale properly into higher levels. I feel that these Dex to damage/hit feats are going to be the same thing. Dex builds will consider these a requirement to operate or else be sub-par.
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If Dex has bonus to attack and damage, I feel that it would cause Strength builds to be overshadowed by Dex builds.
Sure, this will assist some of the underpowered MAD classes with a feat cost of 2, but it will also make some classes that are more reasonable in power be brought higher. Maybe even too high. I mean... Two Weapon Fighter Rangers which dont seem to be terrible, will get a pretty big bump in combat ability.
Another issue... In 4E, they had to add weapon expertise because the numbers weren't scaling properly, and it became a feat that all characters were basically required to get as to scale properly into higher levels. I feel that these Dex to damage/hit feats are going to be the same thing. Dex builds will consider these a requirement to operate or else be sub-par.
Do your players use a lot of non-core Pathfinder material? Dex to attack and damage has been viable for a long time via the Agile enhancement and the Dervish Dance feat, and more recently with Slashing Grace (and soon Fencing Grace). If your players are not familiar with these feats I urge you to point them out and see what your players do with them - I have relatively competent players who have been using these feats for over two years and I've yet to feel that the resulting builds are anywhere near close to being able to topple strength off the "king of melee attributes"-throne.
Generally speaking dexterity users are roughly three feats behind a strength user. Weapon Finesse, "dex-to-damage" feat of choice, and Weapon Versatility to offset the disadvantage of only being able to use a single melee weapon with competence. They also need Weapon Focus, but that's a common feat for most combat styles so I won't count it against them.
I find it interesting that you mention two-weapon rangers - this is a popular class concept specifically because it avoids one of the pitfalls for TWF - that you need to split your ability scores between strength to deal damage and dexterity to qualify for TWF feats. Style feats sidestep that, allowing you to make high strength moderate/low dex TWF rangers.
@Atarlost
There's a fairly small notation in the CRB on p. 53 stating that animal companions can choose to skip the size advancement and instead get a +2 bonus to dexterity and constitution. It was pointed out in one of the posts deleted by Chris Lambertz earlier. Don't mean to nitpick, but it's much easier to get that glitch fixed straight away.
Other than that, I still find that big and small cats seem much better balanced if you assume dex to damage is a thing, since the big cat still has reach, grab, pounce and rake - especially if you consider that the small cat would lose at least two feats (weapon finesse + slashing grace analogue) that the big cat can use on barding and improved initiative. Conversely if the small cat can't get dex to damage, it's an extraordinarily bad option for an animal companion.