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Here we have Sneak Attack:
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Here we have an Excerpt from the Magic Rules:
Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone.
Now above I understand and agree with the argument that damage must be dealt for sneak attack to be dealt. What i don't get is:
If "All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks." Why would an attack roll be required to deal sneak attack with a spell? No where in the sneak attack rule is the need for an attack roll specified.
As long as the following condition is met:"target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target" and the effect deals damage it should deal sneak attack damage provided the target is within 30' of the caster. Attack rolls are not the triggering factor for either condition.
That being the case, I'm not sure I understand the benefit of the Arcane Trickster's 10th level ability.
Am I missing Errata not printed in the PRD?
Precision Damage: Precision damage is a special type of damage, which might more appropriately be called a "category" of damage because any of the other damage types listed here might also be considered "precision" damage under the right circumstances. Precision damage is usually dealt by classes like the rogue when he is able to catch an opponent unable to fully protect itself. Precision damage assumes that the target has a somewhat normal anatomy or at least has a physical form which might have weak spots which could be detected or taken advantage of. Previous editions of the game (prior to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game) limited what sorts of creatures are vulnerable to precision damage more than the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game does. This was a deliberate change to make a key class feature of classes like the rogue more frequently usable. Attacks which affect areas (such as splash weapons) usually do not deal precision damage.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o2r
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o2t
I think it comes down to only spells that target can use sneak attack? or ones that require an attack roll? or only ones that you can weapon focus with?
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Hmm... Chess Pwn, All I really get from that is that w/out the Surprise Spell ability you can only add the damage to a single target of your spell.
I don't seen anything yet requiring an Attack Roll be made for an attack spell to qualify for Sneak attack. For example with Rules as Written a rogue could sneak attack a target he was flanking with the spell magic missile, or with a fireball, but he could only choose one opponent in the fireball's radius to take the sneak attack damage unless he had Surprise Spell.
Conclusion:
It allows you to take advantage of area effects to gain sneak attack on all creatures in the area. provided those targets are flat footed.
When dealing with the term attacks the game is generally referring to ones that use attack rolls. The RAW is not written as well as it could be but you must be targeting AC to get sneak attack damage. There is a special ability from a prestige class that allows you to get sneak attack with a spell even if that spell does not target AC.
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@Wraithstrike
The Raw only says "the rogue's Attack..." and in the Magic section it defines offensive effects as Attacks which logically would fall under the umbrella of things that trigger sneak attack. Though as I stated above I agree with arguments that you can't get Extra damage without damage to begin with. If the intent was to only allow Sneak attack for effects requiring an attack roll, then the RAW would read:
Whenever the rogue makes a successful attack roll against a target that would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target, that attack deals extra damage.
Additionally:
The RAW is not written as well as it could be but you must be targeting AC to get sneak attack damage.
Nothing targets AC. You don't target the Armor Class, you target the creature/object.
You are misreading "All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks" by taking it out of context. This isn't a general description of what constitutes an attack, it is instead a specific description for what constitutes an attack when that term is used in a spell description (see invisibility).
Although it could possible be more clear, it is fairly obvious to me that the attack requirement for sneak attack is the attack roll
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@Dave Justus
You are probably correct regarding the RAI, I was hoping to find a clarification of RAW that made that specific distinction either in an errata or FAQ. So far I have not.
Edit: I was not taking it out of context. Rather I was saying that in context all such magical effects whether from spells, spell like abilities, or supernatural abilities constitute attacks and as such must be considered for sneak attack according to RAW.
When dealing with the term attacks the game is generally referring to ones that use attack rolls. The RAW is not written as well as it could be but you must be targeting AC to get sneak attack damage. There is a special ability from a prestige class that allows you to get sneak attack with a spell even if that spell does not target AC.
I've bolded the important part of wraithstrike's answer. Whenever this question comes up (and it's not infrequent), this is frankly the best evidence there is that the rules do work as everyone generally understands them to. As mentioned, the rules aren't always as clear on every point as we'd like them to be.
Suffice it to say that the existence of an ability which requires 10 levels of a prestige class to get, which does exactly what you're asking about here, is a very good indication that the ordinary character without that ability cannot do it. If any 1st level rogue could grab a wand of fireballs and get sneak attack along with it, there is absolutely no point to the Arcane Trickster's capstone ability of Surprise Spells. The very point of that ability is to let a 10th level Arcane Trickster (and ~13th level character at a minimum) apply sneak attack damage with an AoE spell. If anybody could do it, what is the purpose of Surprise Spells?
It's an exception that proves the rule thing. That is as RAW as you will get.
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@ Fretgod99
I certainly agree with your reasoning, I just wish that if the question came up this frequently it would be clearly errata'd in the PRD.
Because there are 2 ways to get sneak attack:
1. denying Dex bonus
2. flankinga. AOE spells do not target AC and therefore Dex bonus is not denied
b. you can not flank with a ranged attack
@Bigdaddyjug
Your Assumption of A is incorrect. Dex bonus is denied situationally by the flatfooted condition which can be triggered by initiative order among other things.
If your assumptions of a and b were correct, then the Surprise Spell ability of the Prestige class would never have a condition in which it could be used.
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Sneak attack requires a target. Since AoE spells don't have a target, they can't be used to sneak attack.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
Surprise Spells is a specific rule that trumps the general rule. It also states "targets" in the description.
At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed.
You don't necessarily have to be being attacked to be flat-footed. It's a condition.
Precision Damage: Precision damage is a special type of damage, which might more appropriately be called a "category" of damage because any of the other damage types listed here might also be considered "precision" damage under the right circumstances. Precision damage is usually dealt by classes like the rogue when he is able to catch an opponent unable to fully protect itself. Precision damage assumes that the target has a somewhat normal anatomy or at least has a physical form which might have weak spots which could be detected or taken advantage of. Previous editions of the game (prior to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game) limited what sorts of creatures are vulnerable to precision damage more than the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game does. This was a deliberate change to make a key class feature of classes like the rogue more frequently usable. Attacks which affect areas (such as splash weapons) usually do not deal precision damage.
Magic Missile is not an area effect and requires no attack roll.
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When dealing with the term attacks the game is generally referring to ones that use attack rolls. The RAW is not written as well as it could be but you must be targeting AC to get sneak attack damage. There is a special ability from a prestige class that allows you to get sneak attack with a spell even if that spell does not target AC.I've bolded the important part of wraithstrike's answer. Whenever this question comes up (and it's not infrequent), this is frankly the best evidence there is that the rules do work as everyone generally understands them to. As mentioned, the rules aren't always as clear on every point as we'd like them to be.
Suffice it to say that the existence of an ability which requires 10 levels of a prestige class to get, which does exactly what you're asking about here, is a very good indication that the ordinary character without that ability cannot do it. If any 1st level rogue could grab a wand of fireballs and get sneak attack along with it, there is absolutely no point to the Arcane Trickster's capstone ability of Surprise Spells. The very point of that ability is to let a 10th level Arcane Trickster (and ~13th level character at a minimum) apply sneak attack damage with an AoE spell. If anybody could do it, what is the purpose of Surprise Spells?
It's an exception that proves the rule thing. That is as RAW as you will get.
Because there is no consistent wording/editing within Paizo and they purposefully try to not reuse the same sentence structure (ugh) to keep from having boring text, all this proves is that different people probably wrote these two sections without completely understanding the rules being applied.
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Because there is no consistent wording/editing within Paizo and they purposefully try to not reuse the same sentence structure (ugh) to keep from having boring text, all this proves is that different people probably wrote these two sections without completely understanding the rules being applied.
And there in lies the rub!
I love this game, I really do but I definately feel that it is lacking in clear concise rules that are not open to debate, even debate caused by subsequent rule that act off of or impact that rule.
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The ability came from 3.5 and you have always needed to hit someone's AC unless they had surprise spell. The ways to setup sneak attack are to make someone lose dex to AC aka "deny dex" or flank them.
That is why sneak attack calls out denying dex to AC and that is why I said attack their AC. Yes I understand AC is just a stat but the AC is what has to be hit. There would be no need to mention AC if it was not a factor.
I do agree that that since "attack" has more than one use they should have clarified. it for this case.
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Because there is no consistent wording/editing within Paizo and they purposefully try to not reuse the same sentence structure (ugh) to keep from having boring text, all this proves is that different people probably wrote these two sections without completely understanding the rules being applied.And there in lies the rub!
I love this game, I really do but I definately feel that it is lacking in clear concise rules that are not open to debate, even debate caused by subsequent rule that act off of or impact that rule.
I understand the frustration. But if sneak attack does what is wanted here, Surprise Spells does literally nothing. That's happened with one or two feats before, but it's been errata'd. Beyond that, this is a rule that appears in the CRB, not a subsequent publication. I find it highly doubtful the people in charge of writing this section didn't understand the rules, as was implied by claudekennilol.
Precision Damage: Precision damage is a special type of damage, which might more appropriately be called a "category" of damage because any of the other damage types listed here might also be considered "precision" damage under the right circumstances. Precision damage is usually dealt by classes like the rogue when he is able to catch an opponent unable to fully protect itself. Precision damage assumes that the target has a somewhat normal anatomy or at least has a physical form which might have weak spots which could be detected or taken advantage of. Previous editions of the game (prior to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game) limited what sorts of creatures are vulnerable to precision damage more than the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game does. This was a deliberate change to make a key class feature of classes like the rogue more frequently usable. Attacks which affect areas (such as splash weapons) usually do not deal precision damage.Magic Missile is not an area effect and requires no attack roll.
Magic missile also specifically states it cannot target a specific point on the body and therefore fails to mean sneak attack's requirements.
TL:DR/ get off my lawn!