There is nothing in the rules for crafting magic items or for changing the material of magic items that even brings up order of operations. Literally nothing. If there was, one of you guys would have posted it in the last 3 pages you have been claiming it.You can enchant a piece of mithra before it is made into an armor?
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled.
Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value.
Additional magic supply costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.The rules are clear: you need the armor or its pieces before enchanting it. You can't enchant a piece of mithral with armor powers and then make it into armor.
The strange thing is it has been posted several times that armor must be crafted with masterwork components before being made magical. I don't know where he got the idea from that the rules had not been presented.
I think that the Creative director opinion has a lot of weight in this matter.
And yet, every time the James Jacobs quote about Celestial being magic and not material comes up, he goes back to being "not a rules guy." Funny how the weight of his opinion varies like that.
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I think that the Creative director opinion has a lot of weight in this matter.And yet, every time the James Jacobs quote about Celestial being magic and not material comes up, he goes back to being "not a rules guy." Funny how the weight of his opinion varies like that.
You don't see a difference between the Creative Director that is not a Rule Guy saying "I would rule this way" an "As a Creative Director I would have this as jet undeveloped part of the game developed this way"?
In one instance he giving his interpretation of a rule, in the other he is giving his opinion on how a as jet undeveloped part of the game should be developed.
As a added bonus as "fusing" is a mechanic developed by a 3rd part developer it can't be made a official rule by Paizo unless they buy the rights. As it exist it is almost granted that it will not become a Paizo official rule. The same thing that happened for all the non open content 3.5 stuff.
James citations:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.Mithral full plate of speed is more expensive because haste is a VERY powerful effect. Anything that adds an additional attack is going to be guaranteed expensive, regardless of its other effects.
In any event, celestial armor isn't an armor quality. It's a unique kind of armor, and thus has a unique pricing. It does weird stuff; it's really light, it's made of gold, it's REALLY nice looking, it lets you fly, and so on. Its pricing is a result of ALL of these elements, and that's pretty much that.Elven chainmail and the mithral shirt are nothing more than armor made of mithral. They're listed as examples of types of armor made of mithral... we could have also listed mithral breastplates or mithral scale mail or mithral half-plate, but we didn't.
In the end, the prices are fine the way they are. At least as far as I'm concerned. If they're weird to you, by all means change them for your game.
Frankly, the over-examination of tiny fiddly rules bits in an attempt to "solve" the equation of how things are priced is more or less destined to cause only greater confusion. Magic item pricing is equal parts math and art, since the game itself wasn't designed from the ground up by mathematicians.
Notice how he say that the armor has its how set of special material. If you change the special material it isn't Celestial armor anymore.
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I'm going to chime in here, but I think there is a point being missed. According to page 155 on the CRB, a person wearing a suit of mithral full plate must be proficient in the armor type. It lists specifically mithral full plate in the rules as an example. Unless the barbarian takes heavy proficiency he would get all the armor check penalties. Even if he did take it, he would not get his fast movement bonus, because it is classified as heavy armor. At least that is my understanding of the rules.
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I'm going to chime in here, but I think there is a point being missed. According to page 155 on the CRB, a person wearing a suit of mithral full plate must be proficient in the armor type. It lists specifically mithral full plate in the rules as an example. Unless the barbarian takes heavy proficiency he would get all the armor check penalties. Even if he did take it, he would not get his fast movement bonus, because it is classified as heavy armor. At least that is my understanding of the rules.
It was cited a few times. Mithral don't change the armor proficiency needed. Elven chain change it (and it say it explicitly).
Celestial armor say it is treated as light armor (and medium for celestial plate) but it is unclear if that is limited like for mithral or not.In every instance, even stacking the rules, the celestial plate wouldn't become a light armor for proficiency, as mithral don't change the proficiency.
I don’t get it. Wraithstrike, Gauss, Diego Rossi, Aelryinth and others have already explained it. The most respected rules interpreters on the forum agree.
Why do others keep on questioning it?
stuff
And now you're quoting James Jacobs saying:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of.
And concluding:
Notice how he say that the armor has its how set of special material.
I'd be interested to know how you reached that conclusion.
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stuffAnd now you're quoting James Jacobs saying:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of.And concluding:
Notice how he say that the armor has its how set of special material.I'd be interested to know how you reached that conclusion.
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing.
In any event, celestial armor isn't an armor quality. It's a unique kind of armor, and thus has a unique pricing. It does weird stuff; it's really light, it's made of gold, it's REALLY nice looking, it lets you fly, and so on. Its pricing is a result of ALL of these elements, and that's pretty much that.
Both times James has pointed out that being made of silver or gold is part of what make the armor what it is. If you take an item and change its composition you make a different item.
If we take what James is saying into account being made of silver or gold is part of the rules of the celestial armor. As we don't have a rule about what happen if we change its composition we can't make a celestial armor out of steel or mithral or adamantine. It would be like trying to make a adamantine full plate out of wood. Being made of silver or gold is part of the celestial armor composition and creation.
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Then don't bother making Celestial Plate out of it and make Celestial Armor.This actually makes the most sense, discussing it the way we are. It actually costs less and gives more benefit that the "Celestial" from Celestial Plate Armour anyways.Not really. You are assuming Celesital is like an enhancement that always drops armor to one level lighter from the current form.
It could be that the process for plate makes it medium.
As an example if I cast a spell that gives you an 8 strength.
And then I cast another spell that takes your strength from a 10 directly to an 8, the your strength won't drop to 6 because the spell does not say strength drops by 2. It says it makes it directly into an 8. In that case one effect is duplicating another so there is no benefit to casting both.
In this case, no, we are not assuming "Celestial" is an enhancement that always drops armour to one level lighter. We are assuming "Celestiial" is an enhancement that moves the armour category to a specific one, as you say.
The "Celestial" from Celestial Plate moves it to Medium, specifically. What MM was saying, and I was agreeing, in the specific context of a custom, house ruled, magical item, was that taking the "Celestial" from Celestial Armour, the chainmail version, that is treated as Light, would be better then, because it is moving it to the specific armour category of Light, savvy?
Then we still disagree. I was trying to avoid repeating an earlier post.
The enhancement process for heavy armor makes it medium. The process for medium moves medium armor to light armor. Basically the celestial name is only a name not an all encompassing magic process so you can't apply "celestial" to anything.
The idea is that you found a way to move medium armor to light armor and called it celestial.
Later you may have found a way to move heavy armor to medium and called it celestial plate.
That is why MM's idea can possibly not work so he can't say its RAW.
Hmm, I wonder if we're on the same page or talking past each other. I really need to communicate better. Anywho, I see three ways of seeing this "Celestial" business ;
1. "Celestial" treats an armour as a specific category. "Celestial" from Celestial Plate treats armour as Medium, and from Celestial Armour treats armour as Light. This comes about from the use of the language "treated as" as opposed to "made one step lighter".2. "Celestial" treats armour as one step lighter. This comes about from Celestial Armour being Chainmail (Medium) being treated as Light, and Celestial Plate being Full Plate (Heavy) being treated as Medium.
3. "Celestial" treats Heavy armour as Medium and Medium armour as Light. This comes about from the same language as 2, but interpreted in a different way.
I was going between 1 & 2, but I believe 3 is what you are getting at? New to me, and certainly different than the traditional nature of enhancements (being more across-the-board than different-depending-on-material-applied-to). Still, a valid interpretation, as far as I can tell.
As far as the Mithral Celestial Plate Armour goes ;
1. Would result in Medium armour, if you took "Celestial" from Celestial Plate, and Light armour, if you took "Celestial" from Celestial Armour, regardless of what armour you applied it to. This would be kind of a silly thing to do, and I don't think a GM should run with this interpretation.
2. Would result in one of two interpretations.
A. Light armour, for purposes of movement and other limitations, and Medium armour for all other purposes. Mithral moves the armour one step lighter, i.e. Medium, "for purposes of movement and other limitations." "Celestial" then moves it one step lighter.
B. Medium armour. Mithral moves the armour one step lighter, i.e. Medium, "for purposes of movement and other limitations." Armour category is not a limitation, so the armour is still Heavy. "Celestial" then moves it to Medium in full.
3. The same two interpretations as 2.
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Have to agree that the order of operations argument seems to be falling into the trap of starting with a conclusion (Mithril Celestial Plate should not be allowed) and then scrambling to find any RAW it can to justify said conclusion.
As someone who has had Mithral Celestial Plate in a game and is not arguing that it can't be made, but probably shouldn't due to the overpowered nature of the item, or at least should cost more than the default costs would suggest, I find this extremely frustrating. The order of operations is written into the RAW, is the basis of how the item would be calculated and can't be denied as a consideration. The idea that order of operations is starting with a conclusion is dismissing it without acknowledging its merits or basis in the Core. I find this dismissal insulting, and suggest you check my earlier posts in this thread to see why I disagree with your assessment. That or DR's quoting of the Magic Item Creation section of the CRB.
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Not sure your question. It has special requirements. It's gold/silver (thought to be divine because of it's "purity") that is imbued by a lawful good god to make it celestial. The maker needs to be good.
If it's an enchantment there needs to be a cost.
If it's a material than there is rules.It either can be one or the other. Not just a "magic".
There is no question. I'm flat out saying that it is an enchantment. We have the rules on modifying specific magic items. We have rules for enchantments that are either +x equivalent or +GP equivalent.
The +x equivalent is the +3. The +GP equivalent is every other bit of magic in it. We have a breakdown as such:
Full Plate - 1,500
Masterwork - 150
+3 Enhancement - 9,000
Total - 10,650The price of the item is 25,000. 25,000 minus 10,650 equals 14,350. Therefore, the price for Fly 1/day, +5 Max Dex, and -15% ASF is 14,350.
It is unquestionably not a special material and is an enchantment with a cost of 14,350 GP.
Enhancement, not Enchantment. Enchantment is a school of magic, Enhancements are what we apply to magic items.
You might want to check your sources, remembering that d20srd is not official, nor all that reliable. 3rd party material is meshed in with core with little warning or notification. In this case, you're using the wrong price. Celestial Plate costs 28,650 to buy, or 15,150gp + 1,080xp to craft. Your assumptions are reasonable other than that.
There is no need for the order of operations.
It is it's own material. With special materials, you can only have one.
Mithral is a lightweight substance. That is a special material that improves dex max and arcane failure and armour check penalties.
Celestial is gold/silver that has been imbued by a god to have special properties. That improves dex max and arcane failure and armour check penalties.
The only way that improves dex max and arcane failure and dex penalties is from special materials.
You can only have one special material.
That you "have had" one doesn't mean it's a valid piece of gear. An no, his assumptions are not reasonable, he gives a value to the max dex, ASF, ACP of 14,350. Which would then make it reasonable to just "enhance" a piece of armour to have no arcane failure with just GP's. Or is it reasonable to pay 14,000 gp for a 20 max dex on stone full plate?
It breaks the rules and ideas of the game.
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Order of operations is nothing to do with having special materials. It is only one special material, and one enhancement. The issue with order of operations is how the modifiers from the special material and the enhancement is added.
1. If the enhancement comes first, then there is no argument that the armour is Light. The enhancement, no matter how you read it, makes the armour Medium. The special material then makes it one step lighter, to Light. End of story.
2. If the material comes first, you get my post here. It's no longer so clear cut. It is, in fact, the point of contention.
There'd be no argument (as far as I can see) if the armour did not have to exist for it to be enhanced in the first place. It would be Light armour, no question. The problem is, the armour is called out, specifically, as having to be made first. As such, there is an order in which the changes are applied. And, because of that order, it is not clear cut.
Have to agree that the order of operations argument seems to be falling into the trap of starting with a conclusion (Mithril Celestial Plate should not be allowed) and then scrambling to find any RAW it can to justify said conclusion.As someone who has had Mithral Celestial Plate in a game and is not arguing that it can't be made, but probably shouldn't due to the overpowered nature of the item, or at least should cost more than the default costs would suggest, I find this extremely frustrating. The order of operations is written into the RAW, is the basis of how the item would be calculated and can't be denied as a consideration. The idea that order of operations is starting with a conclusion is dismissing it without acknowledging its merits or basis in the Core. I find this dismissal insulting, and suggest you check my earlier posts in this thread to see why I disagree with your assessment. That or DR's quoting of the Magic Item Creation section of the CRB.
I'm not disagreeing with the idea that order of operations exists. Just annoyed that the arguments against Mithril Celestial Plate seem to involve bending, twisting, and selectively quoting the rules and developer statements to justify saying it cannot be made.
Really, the whole issue should start and end with "The rules are unclear, so ask your GM" combined with "As the GM, I think this item is/isn't overpowered, will (not) allow it."
stuffAnd now you're quoting James Jacobs saying:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of.And concluding:
Notice how he say that the armor has its how set of special material.I'd be interested to know how you reached that conclusion.
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing.In any event, celestial armor isn't an armor quality. It's a unique kind of armor, and thus has a unique pricing. It does weird stuff; it's really light, it's made of gold, it's REALLY nice looking, it lets you fly, and so on. Its pricing is a result of ALL of these elements, and that's pretty much that.Both times James has pointed out that being made of silver or gold is part of what make the armor what it is. If you take an item and change its composition you make a different item.
If we take what James is saying into account being made of silver or gold is part of the rules of the celestial armor. As we don't have a rule about what happen if we change its composition we can't make a celestial armor out of steel or mithral or adamantine. It would be like trying to make a adamantine full plate out of wood. Being made of silver or gold is part of the celestial armor composition and creation.
And yet, the previously quoted rules allow the option of changing the material of specific suits of armor with GM approval. What makes Celestial Armor an exception to the rule?
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There is no need for the order of operations.
It is it's own material. With special materials, you can only have one.
It's not though. Check my posts. I have linked the Celestial Armour, Celestial Shield, and Celestial Plate from the PRD and the Archives of Nethys in my posts. It is not, as of Ultimate Equipment, made from gold/silver. They removed that part of the item. Honestly. Just look at my posts. I quoted the entire text of the item from both sources, for completeness, as well as the linking the sources.
That you "have had" one doesn't mean it's a valid piece of gear.
I was mostly pointing that out for people who are arguing for the item in its most powerful form. I'm not coming from this in a view of "This item is badwrongfun and you are badwrongfun". I'm coming from "I've had this in an actual game, was the one who got it made, and whom the GM asked to calculate the costs and stats".
An no, his assumptions are not reasonable, he gives a value to the max dex, ASF, ACP of 14,350. Which would then make it reasonable to just "enhance" a piece of armour to have no arcane failure with just GP's. Or is it reasonable to pay 14,000 gp for a 20 max dex on stone full plate?
It breaks the rules and ideas of the game.
If you start with the assumption "This is an item that it is possible to make" then, yes, he calculates the costs and attributes it as best as can be done, given the limited amount of information available. If you start with the assumption "This item is game breaking and can never be allowed to exist" then, no, his assumptions are unreasonable, but so is this entire discussion. I'm rather liking this discussion, so I'm gonna go with that first one.
Anyways, with the updated costs using the more accurate source, the AoN, the cost increases to 18,000gp and 1,080xp. And you can't have more than one of the same enhancement on an item as far as I'm aware, so that multiplying you're doing can't come up.
I don’t get it. Wraithstrike, Gauss, Diego Rossi, Aelryinth and others have already explained it. The most respected rules interpreters on the forum agree.
Why do others keep on questioning it?
So the person making the argument is more important than the argument itself?
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Have to agree that the order of operations argument seems to be falling into the trap of starting with a conclusion (Mithril Celestial Plate should not be allowed) and then scrambling to find any RAW it can to justify said conclusion.As someone who has had Mithral Celestial Plate in a game and is not arguing that it can't be made, but probably shouldn't due to the overpowered nature of the item, or at least should cost more than the default costs would suggest, I find this extremely frustrating. The order of operations is written into the RAW, is the basis of how the item would be calculated and can't be denied as a consideration. The idea that order of operations is starting with a conclusion is dismissing it without acknowledging its merits or basis in the Core. I find this dismissal insulting, and suggest you check my earlier posts in this thread to see why I disagree with your assessment. That or DR's quoting of the Magic Item Creation section of the CRB.I'm not disagreeing with the idea that order of operations exists. Just annoyed that the arguments against Mithril Celestial Plate seem to involve bending, twisting, and selectively quoting the rules and developer statements to justify saying it cannot be made.
Really, the whole issue should start and end with "The rules are unclear, so ask your GM" combined with "As the GM, I think this item is/isn't overpowered, will (not) allow it."
To be honest, I don't remember seeing many posts explicitly saying that it cannot be made. I think most are saying it probably shouldn't be made, and that the bonuses you'd be getting aren't as good as the ones people want from it, but not so much cannot be made at all. As far as I go, I've linked and quoted the specific rules and guidelines whenever possible. Heck, I statted it up back on page one. My Battle Cleric was one to be feared in that, I'll tell you that much.
You're right, that is what it comes down to. Someone decided to say that, "RAW, you must be allowed it" though, and it's kind of spiraled since then.
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It can't replace the stats and also be an adjustment on the stats. That is the point, either it is an adjustment, or it replaces the base stats.
Per the strict interpretation of RAW being heralded as correct by the "no" crowd, it would seem that the armor has it's stats replaced with the new base. Mithral's rules always adjust the base.If that is not the interpretation, could someone please explain it to me?
I think a big problem you are having is that you are arguing with the "no crowd" as opposed to the specific individuals that are saying "varying degrees of no for differing reasons". I realise it would be much simpler to argue with one person and then extrapolate that, because you could defeat those arguments, you have by proxy defeated all others, but the fact remains that most posters disagreeing here have brought different discussion points forward, and not all of them agree with each other. Debating one person =/= debating all of them.
Anyways, yeah, some people are saying it's an adjustment. Some people are saying it's a flat replacement of stats. I understand both. Here ;
1. Flat stat replacement. Things that modify, such as Mithral, say so. Check Mithral, it says "Spell failure chances [snip] are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3". The use of in/decreased are the ones people are focusing on here. The Celestial Plate doesn't use in/decrease though. It says "It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%." It doesn't describe being modified to any extent, it just says "These are the stats now". So, applying "Celestial" to any armour just flat replaces its existing stats with these ones. Full Plate, Chainmail, Leather, it doesn't matter, they now have "a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%."
2. Modifiers. I think most people are seeing things as modifiers, and just disagreeing with how they are calculated / applied. This works as it did in my post of the first page, and has been done by several people since. Compare the armour to a +3 Full Plate, work out the differences, those differences are now the ones granted by the "Celestial" enhancement. Apply as applicable.
I think 2 is the more reasonable interpretation, though I understand where 1 comes from. It's a bit silly though, as least if you try and treat it an an enhancement that can be applied to other sets of armour. However, where the "no crowd" still disagree with you is how those modifiers are applied.
To be honest, I don't remember seeing many posts explicitly saying that it cannot be made. I think most are saying it probably shouldn't be made, and that the bonuses you'd be getting aren't as good as the ones people want from it, but not so much cannot be made at all. As far as I go, I've linked and quoted the specific rules and guidelines whenever possible. Heck, I statted it up back on page one. My Battle Cleric was one to be feared in that, I'll tell you that much.
You're right, that is what it comes down to. Someone decided to say that, "RAW, you must be allowed it" though, and it's kind of spiraled since then.
I think part of what's made the thread a bit of a confusing mess is that there are a bunch of different people on the anti-Mithril Celestial Armor side, making a bunch of different cases against it. Going off memory, I've seen the following.
1) You cannot make it because the armor is already made out of a special material.
2) Celestial Armor is not made of a special material, but is an exception to the special material substitution guidelines.
3) Celestial Armor must be made of silver or gold to function.
4) You can make a suit of mithril armor, but upon enchanting it with Celestial is ceases being mirthil.
5) You cannot make Mithril Celestial Armor because that would be applying Mithril to Celestial, which is against the order of operations.
6) The Celestial Enchantment does not adjust the unenchanted armor's stats, it sets them to a new number regardless of what said stats were before the enchanting.
7) You can make Mithril Celestial Armor, but the stacking rules remove all of the benefits of mithril.
8) You can make Mithril Celestial Armor, but the order of operations remove all of the benefits of mithril.
And probably a couple more that I missed. It's no wonder the thread turning into such a mess when there are so many different arguments flying around.
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I think part of what's made the thread a bit of a confusing mess is that there are a bunch of different people on the anti-Mithril Celestial Armor side, making a bunch of different cases against it. Going off memory, I've seen the following.
1) You cannot make it because the armor is already made out of a special material.
2) Celestial Armor is not made of a special material, but is an exception to the special material substitution guidelines.
3) Celestial Armor must be made of silver or gold to function.
4) You can make a suit of mithril armor, but upon enchanting it with Celestial is ceases being mirthil.
5) You cannot make Mithril Celestial Armor because that would be applying Mithril to Celestial, which is against the order of operations.
6) The Celestial Enchantment does not adjust the unenchanted armor's stats, it sets them to a new number regardless of what said stats were before the enchanting.
7) You can make Mithril Celestial Armor, but the stacking rules remove all of the benefits of mithril.
8) You can make Mithril Celestial Armor, but the order of operations remove all of the benefits of mithril.And probably a couple more that I missed. It's no wonder the thread turning into such a mess when there are so many different arguments flying around.
Seeing them all listed is hilarious. What's worse, every time one is dispelled, it reappears on the next page, because someone or another wanted to add their 2cp, and didn't read since page 1 first. Which I can't really blame, it's, what, 320 posts now? Still, seeing 1 & 3 flying about is disappointing, seeing as I posted the links to the items on page 1, 2, and 3 of the thread, and every time pointed out that the gold or silver flavour text has been removed since Ultimate Equipment came out.
Speaking of :
- Celestial Armour - PRD - Core Rulebook ; PRD - Ultimate Equipment ; Archives of Nethys
- Celestial Shield - PRD - Ultimate Equipment ; Archives of Nethys
- Celestial Plate - Archives of Nethys
Though, as someone who supports the order of operations, I will say it's not that that it can't be made, or won't benefit from Mithral, it just won't become Light armour. In my opinion.
The thing you aren't getting is that the reason Mithral has the general rules is because you can make anything from it. With a base of steel you do "this". So it works for scale mail or chain mail or breastplate.
Then you want to apply this general rule against a different material. It's what the problem is. The conception that you just somehow derive how much those bonuses are worth from the different material and cost it into a new and improved item.
Celestial is a certain item, not a general rule, even third party from paths. To me, in my games, they are semi artifacts either given as a major boon or ripped off the body of an angel general. That anyone with major ranks in religion or planes would see your armour and know it's history or even what you might have done by seeing the item. It takes the power of a good god to imbue these attributes into the gold and silver.
Celestial is a material and acts like a material and costs like a material. There is no way to gain improved Armour Check Penalty and Max Dex and Arcane Spell Failure in Pathfinder through enchantment/enhancement, only through change in materials. To allow this improvement through a cost of just gold pieces changes the game. Anything that changes the rules/game to allow isn't kosher in my games.
Especially just to build an overpowered item. IE - truestrike goggles, some people allow them but it just ain't kosher and isn't supported within the game.
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Though, as someone who supports the order of operations, I will say it's not that that it can't be made, or won't benefit from Mithral, it just won't become Light armour. In my opinion.
Yeah, how it actually works is a whole other issue to deal with after deciding it can exist and offers mechanical benefits.
I'm pretty sure that if a player ever asked me for Mithral Celestial Armor in a game I was GMing, I'd say no just to avoid the headache of the rules/balance questions it would raise.
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The thing you aren't getting is that the reason Mithral has the general rules is because you can make anything from it. With a base of steel you do "this". So it works for scale mail or chain mail or breastplate.
Then you want to apply this general rule against a different material. It's what the problem is. The conception that you just somehow derive how much those bonuses are worth from the different material and cost it into a new and improved item.
Celestial is a certain item, not a general rule, even third party from paths. To me, in my games, they are semi artifacts either given as a major boon or ripped off the body of an angel general. That anyone with major ranks in religion or planes would see your armour and know it's history or even what you might have done by seeing the item. It takes the power of a good god to imbue these attributes into the gold and silver.
Celestial is a material and acts like a material and costs like a material. There is no way to gain improved Armour Check Penalty and Max Dex and Arcane Spell Failure in Pathfinder through enchantment/enhancement, only through change in materials. To allow this improvement through a cost of just gold pieces changes the game. Anything that changes the rules/game to allow isn't kosher in my games.
Especially just to build an overpowered item. IE - truestrike goggles, some people allow them but it just ain't kosher and isn't supported within the game.
Naw, man, I get it. The thing you're not getting is that Celestial Armour, the Celestial Shield and Celestial Plate are not made from a special material. I 100% agree, if they were, there's no question it and Mithral can't both be happening. But they're not. I get that it's different in your game, Good Gods required and all that, and that's cool. But from a Core rules perspective, it's not a special material. It's an enhancement.
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Though, as someone who supports the order of operations, I will say it's not that that it can't be made, or won't benefit from Mithral, it just won't become Light armour. In my opinion.Yeah, how it actually works is a whole other issue to deal with after deciding it can exist and offers mechanical benefits.
I'm pretty sure that if a player ever asked me for Mithral Celestial Armor in a game I was GMing, I'd say no just to avoid the headache of the rules/balance questions it would raise.
Just avoid asking the forums. You'll avoid 95% of the bother. ;)
I've already statted what I think it'd work out as, I'd just have to increase the cost. Upon reflection, I totally low-balled it. If I was still playing that game, I'd feel bad.
Figures, rogues get something nice and the populous bans it...
Naw, man, I get it. The thing you're not getting is that Celestial Armour, the Celestial Shield and Celestial Plate are not made from a special material. I 100% agree, if they were, there's no question it and Mithral can't both be happening. But they're not. I get that it's different in your game, Good Gods required and all that, and that's cool. But from a Core rules perspective, it's not a special material. It's an enhancement.The thing you aren't getting is that the reason Mithral has the general rules is because you can make anything from it. With a base of steel you do "this". So it works for scale mail or chain mail or breastplate.
Then you want to apply this general rule against a different material. It's what the problem is. The conception that you just somehow derive how much those bonuses are worth from the different material and cost it into a new and improved item.
Celestial is a certain item, not a general rule, even third party from paths. To me, in my games, they are semi artifacts either given as a major boon or ripped off the body of an angel general. That anyone with major ranks in religion or planes would see your armour and know it's history or even what you might have done by seeing the item. It takes the power of a good god to imbue these attributes into the gold and silver.
Celestial is a material and acts like a material and costs like a material. There is no way to gain improved Armour Check Penalty and Max Dex and Arcane Spell Failure in Pathfinder through enchantment/enhancement, only through change in materials. To allow this improvement through a cost of just gold pieces changes the game. Anything that changes the rules/game to allow isn't kosher in my games.
Especially just to build an overpowered item. IE - truestrike goggles, some people allow them but it just ain't kosher and isn't supported within the game.
But it is. Show me how you get other than changing materials: improved Max Dex, Armor Check Penalty and Arcane Spell Failure.
The proposal is that can just change the rules so it will just cost gold to decrease those as some propose. Now we just have to determine how much that costs....by reducing the amount from known amounts that interpolating it to the new armour. Not priced individually but priced as a package? Why not double that package or triple and wear no armour based full plate with +16 Max Dex 0% Arcane Failure. Meh....it's pretty silly. Oh but it's just the once you say....meh, still pretty silly.
Figures, rogues get something nice and the populous bans it...
Nice, I see what you did there.
Naw, man, I get it. The thing you're not getting is that Celestial Armour, the Celestial Shield and Celestial Plate are not made from a special material. I 100% agree, if they were, there's no question it and Mithral can't both be happening. But they're not. I get that it's different in your game, Good Gods required and all that, and that's cool. But from a Core rules perspective, it's not a special material. It's an enhancement.The thing you aren't getting is that the reason Mithral has the general rules is because you can make anything from it. With a base of steel you do "this". So it works for scale mail or chain mail or breastplate.
Then you want to apply this general rule against a different material. It's what the problem is. The conception that you just somehow derive how much those bonuses are worth from the different material and cost it into a new and improved item.
Celestial is a certain item, not a general rule, even third party from paths. To me, in my games, they are semi artifacts either given as a major boon or ripped off the body of an angel general. That anyone with major ranks in religion or planes would see your armour and know it's history or even what you might have done by seeing the item. It takes the power of a good god to imbue these attributes into the gold and silver.
Celestial is a material and acts like a material and costs like a material. There is no way to gain improved Armour Check Penalty and Max Dex and Arcane Spell Failure in Pathfinder through enchantment/enhancement, only through change in materials. To allow this improvement through a cost of just gold pieces changes the game. Anything that changes the rules/game to allow isn't kosher in my games.
Especially just to build an overpowered item. IE - truestrike goggles, some people allow them but it just ain't kosher and isn't supported within the game.
MAGIC
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Naw, man, I get it. The thing you're not getting is that Celestial Armour, the Celestial Shield and Celestial Plate are not made from a special material. I 100% agree, if they were, there's no question it and Mithral can't both be happening. But they're not. I get that it's different in your game, Good Gods required and all that, and that's cool. But from a Core rules perspective, it's not a special material. It's an enhancement.The thing you aren't getting is that the reason Mithral has the general rules is because you can make anything from it. With a base of steel you do "this". So it works for scale mail or chain mail or breastplate.
Then you want to apply this general rule against a different material. It's what the problem is. The conception that you just somehow derive how much those bonuses are worth from the different material and cost it into a new and improved item.
Celestial is a certain item, not a general rule, even third party from paths. To me, in my games, they are semi artifacts either given as a major boon or ripped off the body of an angel general. That anyone with major ranks in religion or planes would see your armour and know it's history or even what you might have done by seeing the item. It takes the power of a good god to imbue these attributes into the gold and silver.
Celestial is a material and acts like a material and costs like a material. There is no way to gain improved Armour Check Penalty and Max Dex and Arcane Spell Failure in Pathfinder through enchantment/enhancement, only through change in materials. To allow this improvement through a cost of just gold pieces changes the game. Anything that changes the rules/game to allow isn't kosher in my games.
Especially just to build an overpowered item. IE - truestrike goggles, some people allow them but it just ain't kosher and isn't supported within the game.
But it is. Show me how you get other than changing materials: improved Max Dex, Armor Check Penalty and Arcane Spell Failure.
The proposal is that can just change the rules so it will just cost gold to decrease those as some propose. Now we just have to determine how much that costs....by reducing the amount from known amounts that interpolating it to the new armour. Not priced individually but priced as a package? Why not double that package or triple and wear no armour based full plate with +16 Max Dex 0% Arcane Failure. Meh....it's pretty silly. Oh but it's just the once you say....meh, still pretty silly.
I don't have examples of any other enhancements that reduce ACP, ASF, or increase Max Dex. I can think of feats and traits that do those things, and you can get feats through enhancements. That's pretty similar, right?
What I'm suggesting is, using the guidelines in the book, in reference to changing items, to calculate what the "Celestial" enhancement is, being the enhancement on the Celestial Armours. That would then be a set enhancement, like Flaming or Vorpal, which has a specific benefit and a specific cost. Like any enhancement, you can't stack them. Buying Flaming twice doesn't give twice the benefit. Similarly, you couldn't stack "Celestial". I gave a price based on my interpretation, what I was seeing. Multiple people have valued it differently. You could say it's a +5 enhancement or costs 50,000gp. It would have as much basis as the 18,000gp + 1,080xp estimate I gave. Is it powerful? Yes. Is it valuable? Yes. Is it game breaking? Only if you under cost it.
Mydrrin, are you even reading the replies? It has been pointed out over and over again that it isn't a special material. If I understand correctly, your argument is that no other (official) magic does it, therefore it can't be magic? No matter how much you want it to be a special material, it currently is not.
Synos, question, if it doesn't become light armor by your interpretation, does it still get the stat changes from mithral? Not arguing, just curious your interpretation.
The closest thing to rules the "order of operations" people have quoted is that you can't enchant something with armor enchants that isn't armor (even if it will be armor later). Nowhere in the rules you have quoted does it say that the order of operations come into play when determining statistics... It also doesn't say anything about armor enchantments overwriting the statistics of the armor being enchanted. In fact, in order to make anything from a special material, you have to determine the base statistics first, then apply mithral modifiers to it, despite not being made in that order. As you like to point out OVER and OVER again, you can't apply mithral to already made armor... My point has never been that you have the order the armor gets made wrong, simply that that order doesn't change how you stat the item and nothing in the rules says that order changes how you stat the item. You are completely nullifying the rules presented in Ultimate Campaign that have been quoted numerous times stating you CAN change the base material for specific magic items. If we were forced to follow your poorly interpreted order of operations ruling for all specific magic items, changing base material would never have an effect.
I fully understand that many people don't want this in their game. No one here is trying to say you HAVE to allow it. I can even see SOME of the arguments against it (like maybe it wouldn't end up as light armor, for example) having a valid point. I have said it over and over again: Both...
Actually, my claims are not based on JJ's statements, but enforced by them.
The Errata of Celestial Armor removes any mention of silver or gold in the description, and the Celestial Shield calls itself out as being made of steel. In both cases, the weight of the items is cut in half, independently of the material of the item.
Celestial Plate changes the stats of the item to a flat whatever. Any armor that is made out of Mithral has Mithral's adjustments on its stats per RAW.
The interpretation that Celestial Plate overwrites the stats of the armor, regardless of what those stats are, imo directly opposes RAI for making specific items from different base armors/weapons/materials.
I don’t get it. Wraithstrike, Gauss, Diego Rossi, Aelryinth and others have already explained it. The most respected rules interpreters on the forum agree.
Why do others keep on questioning it?
When someone wants to see something a certain way, sometimes no amount of logic will convince them otherwise. I have seen people say the PDT(people that make the rules) was wrong(with regard to how the rule actually works) after they spoke on an issue.
With this situation we are really only debating how it would be if that item could be affected by the rules. Since it is not even a PF item it should not even be discussed in the rules section. It is just like discussing how psionics from DSP and a PF rule interact.
I don’t get it. Wraithstrike, Gauss, Diego Rossi, Aelryinth and others have already explained it. The most respected rules interpreters on the forum agree.
Why do others keep on questioning it?
When someone wants to see something a certain way, sometimes no amount of logic will convince them otherwise. I have seen people say the PDT(people that make the rules) was wrong(with regard to how the rule actually works) after they spoke on an issue.
With this situation we are really only debating how it would be if that item could be affected by the rules. Since it is not even a PF item it should not even be discussed in the rules section. It is just like discussing how psionics from DSP and a PF rule interact.
It not being a PFRPG item is very irrelevant, we could just as easily be talking about Celestial Armor being transposed to full plate.
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Hmm, I wonder if we're on the same page or talking past each other. I really need to communicate better. Anywho, I see three ways of seeing this "Celestial" business ;
1. "Celestial" treats an armour as a specific category. "Celestial" from Celestial Plate treats armour as Medium, and from Celestial Armour treats armour as Light. This comes about from the use of the language "treated as" as opposed to "made one step lighter".
2. "Celestial" treats armour as one step lighter. This comes about from Celestial Armour being Chainmail (Medium) being treated as Light, and Celestial Plate being Full Plate (Heavy) being treated as Medium.
3. "Celestial" treats Heavy armour as Medium and Medium armour as Light. This comes about from the same language as 2, but interpreted in a different way.
I was going between 1 & 2, but I believe 3 is what you are getting at? New to me, and certainly different than the traditional nature of enhancements (being more across-the-board than different-depending-on-material-applied-to). Still, a valid interpretation, as far as I can tell.As far as the Mithral Celestial Plate Armour goes ;
1. Would result in Medium armour, if you took "Celestial" from Celestial Plate, and Light armour, if you took "Celestial" from Celestial Armour, regardless of what armour you applied it to. This would be kind of a silly thing to do, and I don't think a GM should run with this interpretation.
2. Would result in one of two interpretations.
A. Light armour, for purposes of movement and other limitations, and Medium armour for all other purposes. Mithral moves the armour one step lighter, i.e. Medium, "for purposes of movement and other limitations." "Celestial" then moves it one step lighter.
B. Medium armour. Mithral moves the armour one step lighter, i.e. Medium, "for purposes of movement and other limitations." Armour category is not a limitation, so the armour is still Heavy. "Celestial" then moves it to Medium in full.
3. The same two interpretations as 2.
Nope.
I am saying there is no "Celestial" enhancement or pseudo enhancement.The process for celestial armor treats the chainmail(medium armor) as light armor. Due to how it looks they called it celestial armor.
That process for Celestial plate treat the full plate(heavy armor) as medium armor, and it has similar features to celestial armor so they called it celestial plate.
The "celestial" is just the name of the finished producted. There is not one process.
I will put it another way. Celestial is not a process that makes armor one category lighter.
Each armor has magic applied that gives it a specific condition.
One process specifically says to treat chainmail as light armor which is not the same as "drop by one category"
Another armor treats full plate as medium armor, which also is not the same as "drop by one category"
Both processes give you a very specific armor. If they just generally dropped the armor by one category then it would be like any enhancement that could be applied to any armor.
The other thing is that the actual armor category never changes. So it is actually still heavy armor if you want to go with the full plate example. Heavy(celestial plate) + mithral = "treat as medium".
That is how I think the rules would apply to this 3.5 product.
I don’t get it. Wraithstrike, Gauss, Diego Rossi, Aelryinth and others have already explained it. The most respected rules interpreters on the forum agree.
Why do others keep on questioning it?
So the person making the argument is more important than the argument itself?
I think he is going off the fact that we tend to be right a lot more than we are wrong.
I understand it does not make us always right. <----I had to put this by itself to make sure it did not get lost, and I came as saying that I am always right etc etc..
As an example you probably have someone at work who knows a lot more than most of your other coworkers about the job. You might even be that guy. When they say something it normally turns out to be right so if that person disagrees with someone people will side with them.
I don’t get it. Wraithstrike, Gauss, Diego Rossi, Aelryinth and others have already explained it. The most respected rules interpreters on the forum agree.
Why do others keep on questioning it?
When someone wants to see something a certain way, sometimes no amount of logic will convince them otherwise. I have seen people say the PDT(people that make the rules) was wrong(with regard to how the rule actually works) after they spoke on an issue.
With this situation we are really only debating how it would be if that item could be affected by the rules. Since it is not even a PF item it should not even be discussed in the rules section. It is just like discussing how psionics from DSP and a PF rule interact.
It not being a PFRPG item is very irrelevant, we could just as easily be talking about Celestial Armor being transposed to full plate.
That just means celestial armor is a legit debate and celestial plate is not. By your logic a psionic fireball is a legit discussion in the rules area.
Celestial Plate changes the stats of the item to a flat whatever. Any armor that is made out of Mithral has Mithral's adjustments on its stats per RAW.
The interpretation that Celestial Plate overwrites the stats of the armor, regardless of what those stats are, imo directly opposes RAI for making specific items from different base armors/weapons/materials.
The game also does not take into account every possible combination, and sometimes there is no RAI for that reason. As per RAW there is no proof of a few things said by both sides. If there is people need to find quotes because saying "my interpretation is RAW" is pointless.
It is just like this:
1. I am right.
2. No, I am right.
1. I am right.
2. No, I am right.
1. I am right.
2. No, I am right.
1. I am right.
2. No, I am right.
1. I am right.
2. No, I am right.
With that said until someone finds a new quote I will refrain from posting.
Celestial Plate changes the stats of the item to a flat whatever. Any armor that is made out of Mithral has Mithral's adjustments on its stats per RAW.
The interpretation that Celestial Plate overwrites the stats of the armor, regardless of what those stats are, imo directly opposes RAI for making specific items from different base armors/weapons/materials.
The game also does not take into account every possible combination, and sometimes there is no RAI for that reason. As per RAW there is no proof of a few things said by both sides. If there is people need to find quotes because saying "my interpretation is RAW" is pointless.
It is just like this:
1. I am right.
2. No, I am right.
1. I am right.
2. No, I am right.
1. I am right.
2. No, I am right.
1. I am right.
2. No, I am right.
1. I am right.
2. No, I am right.
With that said until someone finds a new quote I will refrain from posting.
By that logic, they would have to break down in the section on changing specific magic items, a list of every possible combination of specific magic items and different bases and materials.
It's pretty clear that they don't wanna do that, and thus the DM is forced to use this passage to interpret RAI.
If the rules written cannot be used to do what the rules written say they do, then what is the point of having them?
Mydrrin, are you even reading the replies? It has been pointed out over and over again that it isn't a special material. If I understand correctly, your argument is that no other (official) magic does it, therefore it can't be magic? No matter how much you want it to be a special material, it currently is not.
Meh, you say it isn't. OK. Back it up.
You say there isn't any magic in pathfinder that does what Celestial does but that doesn't prove anything.
What do you bring to the table of this argument? I've been saying since first page that it is a special material, the rules are plain.
You say...nope it's magic. Yeah the new kind we don't have, but it must be there, we just need to deduct what we know to know the price we should put on all the things Celestial does. Then you get into an argument about what it all means.
JJ even states it is gold and silver, the description from where it comes from says gold and silver.
"This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day."
Creator also need a good being to make it, and has a good aura. Everything points to a special material.
But maybe the Pathfinder world will change and you will be right, and it will only be gold to decrease Arcane Spell Failure and all the others. Because somehow locked in a non-pathfinder item is the clues to overpoweredness.
It was not meant to be this way.
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The thing you aren't getting is that the reason Mithral has the general rules is because you can make anything from it. With a base of steel you do "this". So it works for scale mail or chain mail or breastplate.
Then you want to apply this general rule against a different material. It's what the problem is. The conception that you just somehow derive how much those bonuses are worth from the different material and cost it into a new and improved item.
Celestial is a certain item, not a general rule, even third party from paths. To me, in my games, they are semi artifacts either given as a major boon or ripped off the body of an angel general. That anyone with major ranks in religion or planes would see your armour and know it's history or even what you might have done by seeing the item. It takes the power of a good god to imbue these attributes into the gold and silver.
Celestial is a material and acts like a material and costs like a material. There is no way to gain improved Armour Check Penalty and Max Dex and Arcane Spell Failure in Pathfinder through enchantment/enhancement, only through change in materials. To allow this improvement through a cost of just gold pieces changes the game. Anything that changes the rules/game to allow isn't kosher in my games.
Especially just to build an overpowered item. IE - truestrike goggles, some people allow them but it just ain't kosher and isn't supported within the game.
Sorry, but the requirement to make celestial Armor are fairly mild:
Celestial Armor
Price 22,400 gp; Aura faint transmutation [good]; CL 5th; Weight 20 lbs.
This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
Construction Requirements
Cost 11,350 gp
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be good
Technically it even break the rule that the CL of an armor should be 3 times its enhancement bonus. If we follow that rules the CL should be at least 9.
The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor.
Thanks to LordSynos for pointing out the difference in Ultimate Equipment, I have missed it. That remove the special material argument, but not the sequence in which you craft an item and then enhance it.
In answer to my previous post:
The Wood template is being applied to the Mithral Celestial Plate, and so affects the final item.
Celestial is applied to Mithral plate, and because it's enhancements set the armor to final numbers, instead of adjusting them, mithral is superseded and effectively worthless on Celestial Armor. It's just that much better.
Order of operations again.
And yes, I'd have no problem with a suit of ADAMANTINE Celestial Armor. If you wanna fork out the extra money for that and then make it Celestial, I think that would be just awesome and probably the best use of Adamantine armor I can think of. After all, nobody gets Adamantine when they can get the benefits of mithral.
As for not quoting rules:
We've reiterated you can't make Celestial Plate mithral after the fact. That's part of the rules. (barring a Wish or something).
We've reiterated that Celestial sets the numbers for a specific armor type to X, it doesn't add + or - to them. That's part of the rules for that item.
It's been noted that we don't know the price breakdown of Celestial's effects. They are certainly undercosted compared to similar armor enhancements. Trying to say Celestial is X breakdown doesn't work, because we don't know the component costs. It could be a +$ enhancement, or a +1 enhancement with +x$ added on. We don't know.
So anyone quoting price, is NOT quoting a rule when they break it down.
We don't know if Celestial is actually a special material, and if that special material matters as part of the enhancement. The general feeling is that gold or silver is not 'special', as it has no material mods, and so you can make the armor of mithral or adamantine.
But, we could be wrong. It could be REQUIRED to be of silver/gold. In which case we're all wrong.
We don't know. GM Fiat. Not a rule.
So, all that's sure of, is that you must make the base item (mithral full plate), and then Celestial sets the stats equal to X, which obviates all the benefits of mithral (but wouldn't change the DR for adamantine, notably) if silver/gold is not required. That's rules.
Everything else is opinion and fiat.
==Aelryinth
Both times James has pointed out that being made of silver or gold is part of what make the armor what it is. If you take an item and change its composition you make a different item.
Note his use of the word "PART". That an important unqualified loophole. You can't make working physical armor out of just silver and gold. They don't alloy that way and neither separate are usuable armor material, one's too soft and heavy, the other is wrong in other ways.
There's a lot of unqualified "other" that takes two metals that are completely unsuitable and combines them with "other stuff" to make two of the best armors in the game. It's the "other" that's the game changer, and I would wager that magic is an essential part of the "other", in other words you can't have a functional non-magic equivalent of such a suit.
Lazar, you can make armor out of LEAVES and BARK in D&D. Silver and gold can work like adamantine if you want to put the extra magic into it.
I agree that in REAL armor, no chance. But we're talking magic armor, and anything goes. If it's made out of silver and gold and has those stats, you can pretty much assume there's magic at work.
==Aelryinth
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The closest thing to rules the "order of operations" people have quoted is that you can't enchant something with armor enchants that isn't armor (even if it will be armor later). Nowhere in the rules you have quoted does it say that the order of operations come into play when determining statistics... It also doesn't say anything about armor enchantments overwriting the statistics of the armor being enchanted.
Excuse me, but overwriting the statistic of a steel chain mail isn't exactly what Celestial armor do?
It change the basic statistic of the armor but the item description don't say "it reduce weight by x, increase maximum dexterity by Y and reduce arcane spell failure by Z", it say "the new weight is x, the new maximum dexterity is Y and the arcane spell failure is Z".That is overwriting for me.
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I don’t get it. Wraithstrike, Gauss, Diego Rossi, Aelryinth and others have already explained it. The most respected rules interpreters on the forum agree.
Why do others keep on questioning it?
When someone wants to see something a certain way, sometimes no amount of logic will convince them otherwise. I have seen people say the PDT(people that make the rules) was wrong(with regard to how the rule actually works) after they spoke on an issue.
With this situation we are really only debating how it would be if that item could be affected by the rules. Since it is not even a PF item it should not even be discussed in the rules section. It is just like discussing how psionics from DSP and a PF rule interact.
It not being a PFRPG item is very irrelevant, we could just as easily be talking about Celestial Armor being transposed to full plate.
Custom made magic items threads are for the Advice or Suggestion section of the forum.
The closest thing to rules the "order of operations" people have quoted is that you can't enchant something with armor enchants that isn't armor (even if it will be armor later). Nowhere in the rules you have quoted does it say that the order of operations come into play when determining statistics... It also doesn't say anything about armor enchantments overwriting the statistics of the armor being enchanted.
Excuse me, but overwriting the statistic of a steel chain mail isn't exactly what Celestial armor do?
It change the basic statistic of the armor but the item description don't say "it reduce weight by x, increase maximum dexterity by Y and reduce arcane spell failure by Z", it say "the new weight is x, the new maximum dexterity is Y and the arcane spell failure is Z".
Taht is overwriting for me.
agreed. It's textbook overwriting. If it adjusted things like mithral, it would have that wording in there. All it does is set them to new numbers.
Order of operations is absolutely in play. Celestial modifies the base item already made, mithral modifies the base item as its being made. You definitely have an order of operations there, and you definitely have an overwrite, not a stacking.
==Aelryinth
This thread's point basically ended when the nay crowd openly admitted that you can make the same armor we are fighting over using their logic with simple steel plate armor grafted into Celestial Armor rather than Celestial Plate.
Now, to be a bit snarky, let's start a hypothetical about had the thread asked about THAT armor instead.
Hypothetical OP: "Can I make Celestial Armor out of full plate and have it be treated as light armor?"
How many of these "most respected" forum members whose rulings are usually right would chime into that thread and say "no, because of the precedent set by Celestial Plate in Pathfinder 11?"
I think if we were to work backwards we would end up with very different conclusions about what RAW implies.
Also, I may not have been a member of the community as long, but I like to think that when I help people with rulings on these boards that I am also on that list of respected members, and I am very insulted at the very notion that anyone's word on this forum is considered worth more than anyone else's based on who is saying it. If anything it makes me respect those posters less.
I had made a very specific point to state that for the sake of the "Order of Operations" discussion I was ignoring the material question.
Please do not construe that as defacto acceptance that I believe you can make Celestial Armor out of any material you wish.
Do try to keep the separate points...separate?
To put this another way:
Can you make Celestial Plate Armor out of another material? Only if Celestial is not required to be made out of silver.
Will Celestial Plate Armor benefit from being made out of Mithral? No because Mithral happens before the Celestial magic sets the stats.