Except you are not applying Mithral statistics to Celestial Plate, you are applying Mithral statistics to regular old mundane Plate.
Then the Celestial Plate statistics are added to Mithral Plate.
You are clearly the one in house rules territory.
Thought exercise:
Start with Plate armor
Make it out of Mithral instead of Steel (because it must be done before Celestial is applied).
What are it's stats?
Now, make it magical by applying Celestial to it.
What are it's stats? The same as Celestial because Celestial stats are static and not an 'add-on'.
Can you make it Mithral after making it Celestial? No.
Why? Because Mithral is applied to the base armor when it is created.
Magic is then added AFTER creation.
Is there an exception that allows you to take Celestial Plate and make it Mithral after the fact? No.
It doesn't get made Mithral after the fact. The celestial enchantment does not override the physical properties of the metal, if it did it would effectively change the material, which we have established it does not.
Your way of seeing things is backward. It's never been about what the rules don't allow, it's about proving what they DO allow.'shmallow, when you've got 100% disagreement, it's maybe time to reconsider whether your stance is "obviously" the only correct way of seeing things.My way of seeing things is RAW. I'm looking at the written rules and there is nothing that disallows it. There is material that supports it. I understand that it is a very powerful combo and that a lot of people will try and not allow it.
They DO allow you to make specific items from different materials.
The rules do not say that magical enhancements override the properties of Mithral, which is what everyone is saying.
What they don't allow are property overlap. You can't add flaming to a flaming burst weapon, which would be the same thing as adding mithral to celestial.Your way of seeing things is backward. It's never been about what the rules don't allow, it's about proving what they DO allow.'shmallow, when you've got 100% disagreement, it's maybe time to reconsider whether your stance is "obviously" the only correct way of seeing things.My way of seeing things is RAW. I'm looking at the written rules and there is nothing that disallows it. There is material that supports it. I understand that it is a very powerful combo and that a lot of people will try and not allow it.They DO allow you to make specific items from different materials.
The rules do not say that magical enhancements override the properties of Mithral, which is what everyone is saying.
Not at all the same. A flaming burst weapon is a flaming weapon.
Mithral armor and Celestial armor are not the same thing. Where are you getting that from?
You are absolutely correct, it is not Mithral after the fact. It is Mithral BEFORE being made into Celestial Armor.
Lets see if we can quantify this a bit better:
Step 1) Start with Plate Armor. Stats: AC bonus +9, Max Dex bonus +1, ACP -6, Spell Failure 35%, Speed 20', Weight 50lbs.
Step 2) Apply the Mithral special material. New stats: AC bonus +9, Max Dex bonus +3, ACP -3, Spell Failure 25%, Speed 20', Weight 25lbs
Step 3) Using Craft Magic Arms and Armor, add the abilities of Celestial Armor to the existing armor. New stats: AC bonus +12, Max Dex bonus +6, ACP -3, Spell Failure 20%, Speed 20', Weight 25lbs
Now, you want to exchange steps 2 and 3 but you CANNOT DO THAT. Why? Because Mithral Full Plate is a fully stated item BEFORE it can become Celestial Full Plate. It cannot be added afterwards.
Now, if Celestial Full Plate stated that it increases/decreases the various stats then, and only then, you would get: AC bonus +12, Max Dex bonus +8, ACP -1, Spell Failure 10%, Speed 30', Weight 12.5lbs
But, alas, it does not state that. It states specific bonuses that it grants.
Those bonuses override any existing bonuses that the armor may already have because of the order in which the armor is constructed.
If you could find a way to take existing Celestial Plate armor and make it Mithral then you could do what you are saying.
You are absolutely correct, it is not Mithral after the fact. It is Mithral BEFORE being made into Celestial Armor.
Lets see if we can quantify this a bit better:
Step 1) Start with Plate Armor. Stats: AC bonus +9, Max Dex bonus +1, ACP -6, Spell Failure 35%, Speed 20', Weight 50lbs.Step 2) Apply the Mithral special material. New stats: AC bonus +9, Max Dex bonus +3, ACP -3, Spell Failure 25%, Speed 20', Weight 25lbs
Step 3) Using Craft Magic Arms and Armor, add the abilities of Celestial Armor to the existing armor. New stats: AC bonus +12, Max Dex bonus +6, ACP -3, Spell Failure 20%, Speed 20', Weight 25lbs
Now, you want to exchange steps 2 and 3 but you CANNOT DO THAT. Why? Because Mithral Full Plate is a fully stated item BEFORE it can become Celestial Full Plate. It cannot be added afterwards.
Now, if Celestial Full Plate stated that it increases/decreases the various stats then, and only then, you would get: AC bonus +12, Max Dex bonus +8, ACP -1, Spell Failure 10%, Speed 30', Weight 12.5lbs
But, alas, it does not state that. It states specific bonuses that it grants.
Those bonuses override any existing bonuses that the armor may already have because of the order in which the armor is constructed.
If you could find a way to take existing Celestial Plate armor and make it Mithral then you could do what you are saying.
So what happens when you take steel full plate and make Celestial Armor out of it?
Assuming that this is not a material issue and thus you can make Celestial Plate out of steel rather than 'silver' (which, for this purpose I have chosen to leave out of this element of the discussion) then you start at step 1, skip step 2, and go straight to step 3.
But, alas, you cannot then apply Mithral to it.
Your operations still contradict logic. When you apply the magic to turn the armor Celestial, it becomes medium armor, sure. But the rules for Mithral still apply to it, they don't suddenly disappear.
If custom magic items followed the flavor text verbatim there would be no reason for these rules to exist at all.
Actually, my operations follow the game's logic completely. The game uses this kind of logic constantly.
If something replaces X with Y you have to follow the specific order things happen in to know if another bonus happens before, after, or not at all.
And yes, there is reason for those rules to exist, you could apply other specific armor types to Mithral armor but in this specific case the wording of Celestial dictates the bonuses.
Although, you could make Adamantine Celestial Armor (assuming the 'silver' material issue is a non-issue).
As an example: Breastplate of Vanishing (UEp124) could become Mithral Breastplate of Vanishing without a problem.
Why? Because nothing in the Breastplate of Vanishing overlaps or contradicts Mithral.
So, again. Celestial armor on full plate, what happens grand daddy Gauss?
I answered that question here.
And please keep it civil, sarcasm is not necessary.
Suichimo, while you might infer the RAI from that it is not how the rules are written.
Many rules in the game are written in one of two formats: a modifier to an existing score or a flat value.
Mithral uses a modifier to an existing score (that of the original non-magical armor) and Celestial uses a flat value.
Because of that we have to look at the order in which they are applied. This is how the rules work.
We start with the original (1st) flat values, apply the modifiers, then apply the 2nd flat values. The result is we are left with the 2nd flat value.
On the other hand if we start with the original (1st) flat values, apply the 2nd flat values, and then apply the modifiers to the 2nd flat values we are left with the 2nd flat values + modifiers.
Again, it depends on the order. In this case it is Armor -> Mithral -> Celestial which results in 1st flat values + modifiers then all of that is replaced by 2nd flat values.
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By the rules you have to make the armor before it is enhanced. That means it is crafted as mithral and made into celestial plate 2nd. That is in the rules because armor has to be masterwork before any it is enhanced. . Special armor and weapons don't have a rule to bypass that so they follow the same creation rules as other armor and weapons .Guys I'm not saying that Celestial Armor(s) reduce the weight category by one. Mithral does. Nothing in the rules says that the magic enchantments placed on the armor negate Mithral's properties.
If you make a suit of Celestial Plate, it is considered medium by it's own description. If it is made out of Mithral, then rules regarding Mithral armor are applied and it is treated one category lighter. Order of operations is not part of the rules set. I am applying the rules from both armors simultaneously.
Okay, but that still doesn't invalidate Mithral's properties.
Celestial armor is medium armor, by the text. So we take that medium armor, and see that it is made of Mithral. Mithral armor is treated on step lighter.
When the armor becomes Celestial Plate, it becomes medium armor, which means that the Mithral on it takes it lighter, the order doesn't matter because the lightness is not coming from the same source.
What rules are you claiming that I am breaking now? And more importantly, how do they have any effect on the finished product?
Let me put it like this, and repeat myself. The armor is NOT medium. It is treated as medium. It is actually still heavy armor. If I treat A as B then A is still not B.
Since it is still A(heavy armor) that still means the mithral won't drop it another step.
Now until you can find a rule saying that the actual armor category is ignored by Mithral per RAW you can't claim RAW is on your side..
edit: The entire time I thought this item had been reproduced in Ultimate Equipment. This item is a 3.5 item that never got updated to Pathfinder so this should not even be in the rules section. It should be in the advice or homebrew section. With that said it defaults to "ask your GM" on that alone.
By the rules you have to make the armor before it is enhanced. That means it is crafted as mithral and made into celestial plate 2nd. That is in the rules because armor has to be masterwork before any it is enhanced. . Special armor and weapons don't have a rule to bypass that so they follow the same creation rules as other armor and weapons .Guys I'm not saying that Celestial Armor(s) reduce the weight category by one. Mithral does. Nothing in the rules says that the magic enchantments placed on the armor negate Mithral's properties.
If you make a suit of Celestial Plate, it is considered medium by it's own description. If it is made out of Mithral, then rules regarding Mithral armor are applied and it is treated one category lighter. Order of operations is not part of the rules set. I am applying the rules from both armors simultaneously.
Okay, but that still doesn't invalidate Mithral's properties.
Celestial armor is medium armor, by the text. So we take that medium armor, and see that it is made of Mithral. Mithral armor is treated on step lighter.
When the armor becomes Celestial Plate, it becomes medium armor, which means that the Mithral on it takes it lighter, the order doesn't matter because the lightness is not coming from the same source.
What rules are you claiming that I am breaking now? And more importantly, how do they have any effect on the finished product?
Let me put it like this, and repeat myself. The armor is NOT medium. It is treated as medium. It is actually still heavy armor. If I treat A as B then A is still not B.
Since it is still A(heavy armor) that still means the mithral won't drop it another step.
Now until you can find a rule saying that the actual armor category is ignored bu Mithral per RAW you can't claim RAW is on your side..
edit: The entire time I thought this item had been reproduced in Ultimate Equipment. This item is a 3.5 item that...
Which is where my entire stance comes from.
So what I've gotten from this thread is that first you make the armor out of material (in this case mithral), then you enchant it. By that logic Mithral full plate is now treated as medium, followed by the celestial plate specifically mentioning that this armor is treated as medium armor. Is this correct?
Which is where my entire stance comes from.
Are you saying that you agree that 3.5 items like this go to "ask the GM" or am I misunderstanding you?
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I haven't thread the whole thread, so maybe it was already cited, but there is a single kind of armor that is trated in all ways as a lower level of armor, and it has a specific description in its entry:
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links.
This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, [b]including when determining proficiency.
Look the celestial armors:
This bright silver or gold +3 [b]chainmail ...
It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor.
Without the added text, that "in all ways", the armor is still a chain mail or a full plate, and the mithal modifier is applied to the chain mail stats or the full plate stats, so the mithral effect overlap and don't stack.
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I am sure it has been said, but the rules on customs are only guidelines.
It goes on to note that abilities, and spell effect, and enchantments, should be carefully considered. A constant Bless effect, is not equal to a constant True Strike effect, even though they are both first level spells.
Also, it notes how to estimate these costs, and does not note it as a hard formula.
So, you have to compare this custom magic armor, to existing magic armors, and try to estimate an appropriate price.
The end price is subject to DM approval.
So, in theory, you could have a set of Mithral Celestial Plate armor, but you have to realize custom magic guidelines, are just that.
Guidelines.
Too often I see PCs taking the formula for estimates, and forgetting that is all it is.
An estimate.
So, when it comes to custom magic items, a Mithral Celestial Plate armor, is no different than a Ring of Truestrike, in that they both need DM approval.
Which is where my entire stance comes from.Are you saying that you agree that 3.5 items like this go to "ask the GM" or am I misunderstanding you?
I've always said it goes into "ask your DM" territory. But if someone were to ask, the rules on how Mithral affects armor is pretty clear.
Nothing written in Celestial armor(s) negates that.
And the rules don't call out only PFRPG specific magic items, they call out all specific magic items. The rules could apply to anything, in fact, they could have used these rules themselves when they made the armor all those years ago.
By the way, all armors have statistics, just because Celestial [plate] Armor has its own specific set of stats doesn't automatically mean that they aren't affected by Mithral, it just means that its stats are different than the armor in the table. There is nothing written that changes that. By that interpretation, no spells or effects could change your ACP or Speed while wearing that armor.
The two are special materials. And the rules state:
If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material.
Celestial isn't an enchantment like fortification, but a changing of the materials.
We are also talking about semi artifacts. There is not ability to make them, not in pathfinder. They are only linked to heroes of the lawful good plane.
If we allow Celestial Mithral than why can't we also have Celestial Mithral Demon Rhino Hide Armor?
I think there are two different questions at play.
Q1. Can you make a celestial plate out of mithral?
Q2. If the answer to Q1 is yes, how does mithral and the celestial enhancement interact?
I'll take a stab at this:
A1: Near as I can tell, yes. Celestial armor is not listed as being made out of a specific material, so the rules for special materials would work normally.
A2: I don't think there's "one true way" to run this, so expect some table variation. My first inclination is to let a mithral celestial plate be treated as mithral medium armor - ie you need medium armor proficiency to wear it without penalty, but it is otherwise treated as light armor.
Since the original armor is still full plate, I would argue that the full plate would cost 10 500 GP (1500 base + 9000 for heavy armor) before enchantments. Thus a +3 mithral celestial plate would cost 35 500 GP.
Mithral is not and CANNOT be applied to Celestial Plate. You cannot change the material after construction so you cannot take Celestial Plate and make it Mithral.
However, if you apply Celestial Plate to Mithral Full Plate you will not benefit from the Mithral Plate because Celestial does not state it modifies the existing scores like Mithral does. Instead of modifying existing stats it replaces them and what it is replacing is Mithral Full Plate's stats.
Some stuff which has already been answered
Nobody is sweeping anything under a rug. It is not a Pathfinder item. When this was first brought up we said ask the GM. It is not we debated first and THEN went "ask the GM" as a cop out. The only reason I stayed in as long as I did was because I thought the item was a PF item. Upon finding out it wasn't I went back to "ask the GM" which is my stance for any 3pp item.
If you missed that you need to go back and read some posts.
Crozekiel, you are absolutely correct that you cannot take +1 Steel Plate Armor and make it +1 Mithral Plate Armor. That is most certainly how the game works. There is no provision for taking +1 Steel Plate Armor and adding the Mithral to it.
However, you may add Mithral to non-magical Plate Armor when it is constructed at which point it is non-magical Mithral Plate Armor. Then you may make it magical.
Special Materials cannot be added after an item is manufactured and cannot be added after it is magical.
The process to create magical armor is as follows:
1) First some armorsmith uses the craft skill to make the non-magical armor. If he wants it to be made from a special material this is when that happens.
2) Second, someone with Craft Magic Arms and Armor makes the armor magical.
So, we have Mithral Plate Armor that has a specific set of stats (Plate + Mithral modifiers). Next, we have Celestial added on that has a specific set of stats that replaces whatever the original armor's stats are.
This is simply how the rules work. Now, you may want them to work otherwise but this is the Rules Forum. Feel free to house rule it however you want.
In any case, my position is clearly stated and unless there is some new information in this discussion I don't really see the point of debating "is not!" vs "is too!" any further.
Second, what about Celestial Armor then? Celestial Plate is the only bit that is not pathfinder, its a paizo published 3.5 item. Celestial Armor, however, has been published for pathfinder in Ultimate Equipment... Ask the GM for approval is true of any custom magic item, that isn't an answer.
Celestial Plate is already treated as light armor. If you are asking do the stats from mithral add to the celestial plate then I will think both of them apply to the original armor. There is no rule saying what magic does in this case. It could apply a set number and armor type, or it could just set a new base for the armor off of which Mithral could work. I think it applies a set number and armor type. That is also why I keep saying MM cant say his way is RAW. He can think it is RAW. I also think since the devs did not think of this combination that neither of the options I just gave are a rule yet. But I am sure they have seen this thread, and they will decide.
Before MM was saying there was no "asking the GM" as a correct answer. We said that on the first page. That is why I say we are not sweeping it under the rug.
Also this is not a Pathfinder item. It would be just like if Wraithstrike Enterprises had made this item, and now someone is trying to apply Pathfinder RAW to it. Yes, the item was made by Paizo, but it was for the 3.5 system. You would have to get them to bring the item over, and then decide how it interacted to get a correct ruling. So we are back to "ask the GM".
We can debate it all day.
PS: There is also no other case where mithral is on an item that has an actual and effective armor category so we can't say by RAW which one it works off of.
Crozekiel, you are absolutely correct that you cannot take +1 Steel Plate Armor and make it +1 Mithral Plate Armor. That is most certainly how the game works. There is no provision for taking +1 Steel Plate Armor and adding the Mithral to it.
However, you may add Mithral to non-magical Plate Armor when it is constructed at which point it is non-magical Mithral Plate Armor. Then you may make it magical.
Special Materials cannot be added after an item is manufactured and cannot be added after it is magical.
The process to create magical armor is as follows:
1) First some armorsmith uses the craft skill to make the non-magical armor. If he wants it to be made from a special material this is when that happens.
2) Second, someone with Craft Magic Arms and Armor makes the armor magical.So, we have Mithral Plate Armor that has a specific set of stats (Plate + Mithral modifiers). Next, we have Celestial added on that has a specific set of stats that replaces whatever the original armor's stats are.
This is simply how the rules work. Now, you may want them to work otherwise but this is the Rules Forum. Feel free to house rule it however you want.
In any case, my position is clearly stated and unless there is some new information in this discussion I don't really see the point of debating "is not!" vs "is too!" any further.
Those specific stats being changed is the only issue we both have hashing out on.
Mithral's properties say that they reduce the armor by a step, and increase the max DEX by 2 etc. All of these statistical changes are applied to the base armor.
If Celestial Plate changes the base armor, then whether or not you like it, the Mithral properties apply to the new base statistics. The rules are pretty clear on how Mithral works on the statistics of armor.
The case is moot however, since even the strictest interpretation doesn't prevent one from having Celestial armor on full plate, and by the strictest interpretation that we are aiming for, it comes out light armor regardless of what the original/ending material is.
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[...] the armor is still a chain mail or a full plate, and the mithal modifier is applied to the chain mail stats or the full plate stats, so the mithral effect overlap and don't stack.Also, nowhere does it say mithral changes stats from the base armor and not the stats the armor actually has. At best, this argument would say it gets the stats from mithral, but still only counts as medium because mithral is dropping full plate (a heavy armor) down to medium. Which is ignoring the fact that nothing says that Celestial Plate is considered heavy armor in any way at all...
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty on all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
Chain ail is a medium armor that is threated as light when made in mithral, plate armor is am heavy armor that is treated as medium when made in mithral.
You threat the class of the armor as the next lower step. But you start with the armor category.
Crozekiel, you are absolutely correct that you cannot take +1 Steel Plate Armor and make it +1 Mithral Plate Armor. That is most certainly how the game works. There is no provision for taking +1 Steel Plate Armor and adding the Mithral to it.
However, you may add Mithral to non-magical Plate Armor when it is constructed at which point it is non-magical Mithral Plate Armor. Then you may make it magical.
Special Materials cannot be added after an item is manufactured and cannot be added after it is magical.
The process to create magical armor is as follows:
1) First some armorsmith uses the craft skill to make the non-magical armor. If he wants it to be made from a special material this is when that happens.
2) Second, someone with Craft Magic Arms and Armor makes the armor magical.So, we have Mithral Plate Armor that has a specific set of stats (Plate + Mithral modifiers). Next, we have Celestial added on that has a specific set of stats that replaces whatever the original armor's stats are.
This is simply how the rules work. Now, you may want them to work otherwise but this is the Rules Forum. Feel free to house rule it however you want.
In any case, my position is clearly stated and unless there is some new information in this discussion I don't really see the point of debating "is not!" vs "is too!" any further.
Those specific stats being changed is the only issue we both have hashing out on.
Mithral's properties say that they reduce the armor by a step, and increase the max DEX by 2 etc. All of these statistical changes are applied to the base armor.
If Celestial Plate changes the base armor, then whether or not you like it, the Mithral properties apply to the new base statistics. The rules are pretty clear on how Mithral works on the statistics of armor.
The case is moot however, since even the strictest interpretation doesn't prevent one from having Celestial armor on full plate, and by the strictest interpretation that we are aiming for, it...
Well since our stricter potential reading leaves it as medium that is not true. The strictest reading leaves it at medium. Looser readings leave it at light.
What you mean to say is your strictest reading ......
[...] the armor is still a chain mail or a full plate, and the mithal modifier is applied to the chain mail stats or the full plate stats, so the mithral effect overlap and don't stack.Also, nowhere does it say mithral changes stats from the base armor and not the stats the armor actually has. At best, this argument would say it gets the stats from mithral, but still only counts as medium because mithral is dropping full plate (a heavy armor) down to medium. Which is ignoring the fact that nothing says that Celestial Plate is considered heavy armor in any way at all...Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty on all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).Chain ail is a medium armor that is threated as light when made in mithral, plate armor is am heavy armor that is treated as medium when made in mithral.
You threat the class of the armor as the next lower step. But you start with the armor category.
It also says "Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations." Then it goes on to reference the armor categories.
Since that celestial plate is normally heavy because full plate is heavy then mithral only drops it to medium.
PS: I know we agree. I just wanted to add that to it since you did not bold it. :)
Of course they are going to try to say celestial is medium, but celestial is not medium. Nor is treating it as medium the normal state of plate armor.
I still don't see RAW showing the mithral ignores the actual armor category, and instead goes by how it is "treated" for the purpose of movement etc....
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MM, The Celestial enchantment modifies existing already crafted Mithral Plate.
What you're trying to do is have Mithral modify existing previously enhanced Celestial Plate mail, which it cannot do, as has been pointed out repeatedly.
Order of operations IS important here, and the wording of Celestial enchantment is, too.
Celestial doesn't say 'reduce a category'. It specifically says 'treat as medium'. If it's already treated as medium, Celestial isn't going to change anything. It's going to do exactly what it states to do, and not what you're trying to infer it does.
YOu may WANT it to be treated as light armor because of the mithral, but it's not going to happen that way. Celestial simply doesn't modify armor that way.
And mithral, of course, never gets to modify Celestial. It is ALWAYS the other way around.
==Aelryinth
Ok, a new thought exercise for those that still do not seem to understand.
What does the mithral special material do to the classification (Light, Medium, or Heavy) of armor? Reduces it by one step for most purposes.
What does Celestial Armor do to the classification of Heavy Armor? Reduces it to Medium.
Now, we have two effects and they are worded differently. We have to determine what the order of operations is. Why? Because there are two possible results depending on the order assigned. Pathfinder uses order of operations all the time in the statistics and math of the system.
Now, the rules do not specifically state one way or the other what that order of operations is. Since there is no specific rule we have to go by the order of construction which is the closest thing to a rule that we have.
So by order of construction we start with Heavy armor. Then Mithral reduces it to Medium (for most purposes). Next we add on Celestial.
What happens? Well, Celestial does not state to reduce it one step. It states that Celestial Full Plate is treated as Medium armor. Thus, Mithral Celestial Full Plate it is now medium armor.
Of course, your system is Armor, Celestial, Mithral but that is not the order of construction and there is nothing in the rules to support this stance.
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Gauss... By your logic, you could not make a set of +1 Mithral Full Plate (or any specific magic item...), because +1 steel plate armor has a set of stats assigned to it (instead of modifiers) and because you can't retroactively apply mithral to a set of +1 steel armor "because you don't make it in that order". That just isn't how stats for magic items are done. You don't apply them in the order it has to be made...
Unless you have some specific part of Celestial Armor (or Plate) that explicitly states the material from which it is crafted gets wasted or altered to become something new in the process, then your argument doesn't work. It just doesn't.
He is speaking of the order in which the stat should be applied.
You start with the stat of a steel full plate.Then you apply the materials steel full plate -> mithral full plate.
Then you apply the enchantment mithral full plate -> Celestial Plate Armor
So you have:
Full plate heavy armor, move 20, weight 50 lbs, max dex +1, armor check penalty -6
it become
Mithral Full plate heavy armor that count as medium for purposes of movement and other limitations. but not proficiency, move 20, weight 25 lbs, max dex +3, armor check penalty -3
then you enchant it and get
Celestial Plate Armor
Mithral Full plate heavy armor that count as medium (maybe for everything), move 20, weight 25 lbs, max dex +6, armor check penalty -3
Adding special materials is in the equipment part of the rules and it is done when the item is crafted, not after it is enchanted.
For MM and C my point is only that you can't claim your way is RAW because there are other ways to validly look at it, and every angle I look at from goes against your view, but I guess you know that by now.
If it was as simple as you are making it seem many of us who are GM's would simply say it works, and likely follow it up with "expect for your GM to alter the price".
For the sake of argument even if Paizo said you were right, which I am sure won't happen, I would not allow it, so I dont' have a leg in this race.
Why does it matter what it is treated as first?
Full plate is treated as heavy armor before it becomes celestial plate, then it becomes medium after.
Mithral treats it as one step lighter at all times. Celestial plate changed the base size to medium. If the base size changes, how does Mithral no longer apply to it?
Why does it matter what it is treated as first?
Full plate is treated as heavy armor before it becomes celestial plate, then it becomes medium after.
Mithral treats it as one step lighter at all times. Celestial plate changed the base size to medium. If the base size changes, how does Mithral no longer apply to it?
I don't know who that was directed to but by my reading "Treat as" as I have explain before is not "is".
Celestial Plate is still heavy armor. It is just "treat as" medium for certain things. If they wanted the category to actually change they could have said "becomes".
It is just like the improved natural attack feat when they use "as if". You are not actually bigger. You damage just increases "as if" you were bigger.
The same logic applies here with my reading of this armor. It is mithral being applied to heavy armor, not medium armor. Why? Because Celestial plate is heavy armor.
By RAW mithral makes heavy armor act like medium armor for most purposes.
Um, sir. No where in the rules does it say that the words "treat as" don't mean that you treat the item in question as what it is to be treated as.
If you treat the armor as medium, then the armor counts as medium. It doesn't count as heavy for the sake of it being inconvenient.