I can only see the inquisitor getting +7 with his destruction judgement. Is there anything else I'm missing?
Bane for starters, +2 and 2d6? That would be +9 if you include destruction judgement and an average of 7 extra damage (2d6), bringing you up to +16 damage.
With greater Bane, this increases to 4d6 (average 14), for an average of +23 damage per arrow.
EDIT:
Specific mention should go out to the fact that this is what you are looking at at level 12:
+5 (destruction)+ 2 bane + 4d6 bane= 11 - 31 damage per arrow.
Depending on the type of creature a paladin will land +12 or +24. Sure, a paladin has higher BAB (offset by justice judgement). More importantly, a paladin cannot smite every creature.
A ranger at that level will only be at +6.
In any case, comparing at level 12 is somewhat unfair due to it being the level the inquisitor comes into his own, but it is also a level that will see more play then level 20 :)
For an inquisitor? Well, assuming level 20 (even though, who plays level 20 characters?), there's the judgement of destruction (+9 with slayer), wrath (+3 morale), divine power (+6 luck), and bane (+2), so that's +20 from direct self-buffs.
He can cast GMW on his non-magical bow, making it +5. So we're at +25.
He can attack with Deadly Aim, for another +8 to damage, bringing us to +33/arrow, and I offset the attack penalty with heroism (self-buff) and attacking invisibly (greater invisilibility, a self-buff).
With a +40 Perception (+/- depending on wisdom and feats), he can plausibly be aware of enemies with enough notice to buff up for 3 rounds, enough to cast his 3 short-term buffs.
Obviously, this depends on spell selection, although it's hard to imagine an inquisitor forgoing those I've mentioned.
In any case, it can be fairly routine for an inquisitor to add +33 damage per shot, plus 4d6 from greater bane, so ~+47/arrow, not factoring in crits (doubled in frequency courtesy of keen edge, of course); at 20th level, factoring in threat probabilities, damage output is in the neighborhood of 354/round. Build does have clustered shots, of course, important given no special materials or DR-bypassing judgements in-use.
Again, this is assuming no magic items - mundane items only.
I wonder what the warpriest can do. Hopefully it can keep up with the inquisitor.
I wonder what the warpriest can do. Hopefully it can keep up with the inquisitor.
Warpriests get no real additional damage mechanic. They get some extra feats, enough to snugly fit all the archery stuff they need. They provide a divine caster of some merit, but they aren't going to dominate DPR over any other archer.
So since using a bow uses 2 hands, vestigial arm wont give you more or let you dual wield bows because you'd be generating extra bow attacks. Using a bow uses 2 hands and using two bows uses 4 hands. thus you'd be making 4 hands worth of attacks which is clearly disallowed. This also fall under this FAQ
The extra 'hand' is not attacking, it is just reloading the bow, the same way it could reload a crosbow, a sling, a gun.
And you can make a similar build with Syntesist Summoner, using limbs evolution, i didn´t see any FAQ for Limbs evolution.
For an inquisitor? Well, assuming level 20 (even though, who plays level 20 characters?), there's the judgement of destruction (+9 with slayer), wrath (+3 morale), divine power (+6 luck), and bane (+2), so that's +20 from direct self-buffs.
He can cast GMW on his non-magical bow, making it +5. So we're at +25.
He can attack with Deadly Aim, for another +8 to damage, bringing us to +33/arrow, and I offset the attack penalty with heroism (self-buff) and attacking invisibly (greater invisilibility, a self-buff).
With a +40 Perception (+/- depending on wisdom and feats), he can plausibly be aware of enemies with enough notice to buff up for 3 rounds, enough to cast his 3 short-term buffs.
Obviously, this depends on spell selection, although it's hard to imagine an inquisitor forgoing those I've mentioned.
In any case, it can be fairly routine for an inquisitor to add +33 damage per shot, plus 4d6 from greater bane, so ~+47/arrow, not factoring in crits (doubled in frequency courtesy of keen edge, of course); at 20th level, factoring in threat probabilities, damage output is in the neighborhood of 354/round. Build does have clustered shots, of course, important given no special materials or DR-bypassing judgements in-use.
Again, this is assuming no magic items - mundane items only.
Not sure your math. My math is, a 20th level Inquisitor get 3 shots a round base + rapid shot + haste. At most 5 shots a round. Even at self buffing to the max that still around 250 damage a round if they all hit. Your feat levels are low, your to hit is low. Can you post something with what feats you have and what your to hit would be like?
Not sure your math. My math is, a 20th level Inquisitor get 3 shots a round base + rapid shot + haste. At most 5 shots a round. Even at self buffing to the max that still around 250 damage a round if they all hit. Your feat levels are low, your to hit is low. Can you post something with what feats you have and what your to hit would be like?
Manyshot adds an arrow to the first base shot, and I'm assuming divine power rather than haste for the "haste shot", because this should be without external buffs.
Also, with keen edge, you're threatening 10% of the time, which effectively adds 1.2 "shots" (0.6 of your arrows are "trippled" to 1.8, is one way to model it)... so in essence your per-arrow damage, sans bane, is being multiplied by 7.2, not 5, which would bring *your* calculation to 360.
Pretty close to my 354.
"Your feat levels are low, your to hit is low" - I don't know what this means? If you could clarify, I'd appreciate it (possibly your confused about my two posts, but one was based on my "actual" character (15th level), and the other was elevated to 20 to compare with a theorycrafted build. Possible confusion.)
Bows are not two-handed weapons
A Bow is not a Two-handed weapon, and you two weapon fight with it, and say, a foot(unarmed strike).
Okay if a bow doesn't count as a two-handed weapon then is it light or one-handed? This is important for what penalties you take with two-weapon fighting.
Also if it not wielded with two hand the my two handed figher can dual wield them because he qualifies, "You need at least two hands to use a bow." he has two hands so he uses two bows.So since using a bow uses 2 hands, vestigial arm wont give you more or let you dual wield bows because you'd be generating extra bow attacks. Using a bow uses 2 hands and using two bows uses 4 hands. thus you'd be making 4 hands worth of attacks which is clearly disallowed. This also fall under this FAQThe extra 'hand' is not attacking, it is just reloading the bow, the same way it could reload a crosbow, a sling, a gun.
And you can make a similar build with Syntesist Summoner, using limbs evolution, i didn´t see any FAQ for Limbs evolution.
The Sythesist summoner doesn't have the limitation that more arms means no more attacks. The vestigial arm does and that's why it has the limitations.
If the extra hand isn't attacking then let me dual wield a bows with my fighter. Nothing in the bow says I need a free hand, just that I need two hands. Well my two armed fighter has two hands so he'll dual wield his bows. He's not making any extra attacks, he's making as many attacks as the vestigial arm guy. If he can't do it, then you shouldn't because you'd be getting extra attacks. Because if he can't, the yes your "free non-attacking" hand is helping you get extra attacks and is "attacking."
I imagine you're saying you can also dual wield greatswords with vestigial arm? Is that correct? If so, what penalties do you take for dual wielding them?
Also what penalties do you take when you dual wield with a bow? If it's not a two-hand, is it one-hand or light? Or do you have no penalties for dual wielding since it's not on the chart?
Is the Weapon Master archetype better for Fighters than the Archer one? Because of the crit-enhancing shenanigans?
Also, what's the normal ceiling on ability scores by level 20? is it 40? 50? (taking into account both items and tomes, etc...)
Last one: no way to get different alignment paladins, right? (I've just looked up cavalier, but paladins seem to be better, way more rounded)
The Archer archetype loses Weapon Training with increased ranged increments (pointless with a longbow) and some pretty weak combat maneuvers. That's a very bad deal for a fighter. Weapon Training is a big contributor to the fighter's damage output, and Gloves of Dueling give you +2 attack and damage that stacks with everything and only takes up the hands slot--but only if you have Weapon Training.
If you want to be a tricksy maneuver-at-range character, the Archer archetype is probably OK (but I would look at the Gunslinger and the Bolt Ace first). If you want to do the most damage possible, any fighter archetype that doesn't trade out Weapon Training is better.
If you're after just damage with a specialized weapon, Weapon Master is usually best because it kicks in at level 3 instead of level 5. Personally, I like the Lore Warden archetype best for ranged characters. Since archers are so Dexterity dependent, you can't wear heavy armor anyway, so you might as well trade that out for some extra skill points, all knowledge skills, and damage bonuses when you make your knowledge checks.
For different alignment paladins:
Depends on what aspect of the paladin you want. The mount? Go with Cavalier, Samurai, or Sohei Monk. The smite-my-enemies aspect? Look at Inquisitor, Ranger, or Slayer. The spell-casting martial with self-healing and spells? Look at Warpriest or the Cleric Crusader archetype.
Bows are not two-handed weapons
A Bow is not a Two-handed weapon, and you two weapon fight with it, and say, a foot(unarmed strike).Okay if a bow doesn't count as a two-handed weapon then is it light or one-handed? This is important for what penalties you take with two-weapon fighting.
Also if it not wielded with two hand the my two handed figher can dual wield them because he qualifies, "You need at least two hands to use a bow." he has two hands so he uses two bows.So since using a bow uses 2 hands, vestigial arm wont give you more or let you dual wield bows because you'd be generating extra bow attacks. Using a bow uses 2 hands and using two bows uses 4 hands. thus you'd be making 4 hands worth of attacks which is clearly disallowed. This also fall under this FAQThe extra 'hand' is not attacking, it is just reloading the bow, the same way it could reload a crosbow, a sling, a gun.
And you can make a similar build with Syntesist Summoner, using limbs evolution, i didn´t see any FAQ for Limbs evolution.
The Sythesist summoner doesn't have the limitation that more arms means no more attacks. The vestigial arm does and that's why it has the limitations.
If the extra hand isn't attacking then let me dual wield a bows with my fighter. Nothing in the bow says I need a free hand, just that I need two hands. Well my two armed fighter has two hands so he'll dual wield his bows. He's not making any extra attacks, he's making as many attacks as the vestigial arm guy. If he can't do it, then you shouldn't because you'd be getting extra attacks. Because if he can't, the yes your "free non-attacking" hand is helping you get extra attacks and is "attacking."
I imagine you're saying you can also dual wield greatswords with vestigial arm? Is that correct? If so, what penalties do you take for dual wielding them?
Also what penalties do you take when you dual wield with...
Two-weapon fighting doesn't say "must be one- handed or light" it says "if light, reduce penalty by 2." So, you don't get to do that because it isn't light.
You do need 4 arms to use two bows because the bow entry tells you that you need two hands to hold it. That has nothing to do with it being a two-handed weapon.
Where in the bow entry does it say you need two hands to hold it? All it says is "You need at least two hands to use a bow." Not that you use two hands to use a bow. So my fighter can dual wield bows since he has two hands. If you need two hands to "wield/use" a bow, then vestigial arms with two bows then vestigial arms are giving you extra attacks.
^
I'm glad someone else agrees.
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The Bow, in no way, "subsumes your offhand".
A Bow is a Ranged Weapon, that require two hands to use.
Important difference.
The Two-Handed Fighter does not get to use Overhand Chop, with a Bow.
In fact, and bonuses that would be applied to two-handed weapons, would not apply to the Bow.
Now, some weapons, are two-handed weapons, and ranged weapons.
Example: The Spear.
Not sure your math. My math is, a 20th level Inquisitor get 3 shots a round base + rapid shot + haste. At most 5 shots a round. Even at self buffing to the max that still around 250 damage a round if they all hit. Your feat levels are low, your to hit is low. Can you post something with what feats you have and what your to hit would be like?
Manyshot adds an arrow to the first base shot, and I'm assuming divine power rather than haste for the "haste shot", because this should be without external buffs.
Also, with keen edge, you're threatening 10% of the time, which effectively adds 1.2 "shots" (0.6 of your arrows are "trippled" to 1.8, is one way to model it)... so in essence your per-arrow damage, sans bane, is being multiplied by 7.2, not 5, which would bring *your* calculation to 360.
Pretty close to my 354.
"Your feat levels are low, your to hit is low" - I don't know what this means? If you could clarify, I'd appreciate it (possibly your confused about my two posts, but one was based on my "actual" character (15th level), and the other was elevated to 20 to compare with a theorycrafted build. Possible confusion.)
10% of the time you do 3x damage = 5 shots + 5(0.1 *3xdamage) = 6.5, there is also a complication with manyshot that would decrease it a bit more.
A 20th level Inquisitor +15 to hit, deadly aim lowers it, most Inquisitor stuff gives bonuses to damage and not hit. Seeing what your to hit looks like to see the relevance of the damage.
Two-weapon fighting doesn't say "must be one- handed or light" it says "if light, reduce penalty by 2." So, you don't get to do that because it isn't light.
You do need 4 arms to use two bows because the bow entry tells you that you need two hands to hold it. That has nothing to do with it being a two-handed weapon.
The fact that you need both hands to fight means that according to the FAQ and the posts on the subject, a bow subsumes your "offhand."
That means the FAQ is directly applicable because vestigial arms do not grant another "offhand." You still only have a single offhand for attacking with, and thus by the FAQ cannot wield another weapon.
The weird original FAQ claimed directly in the thread that each person has a "hand" and an "offhand" that have nothing to do with actual physical hands.
That being said; the bow requires two hands to wield. The greatsword requires two hands to wield. It has already been ruled that things that you cannot duel wield things that take up your offhand because they have already taken up the non physical "offhand." The same would apply for the bow, because as you already stated, it requires the offhand to wield.
No, the "off-hand" is only used when it has the ability to donate +.5 STR bonus to damage in an attack. Bow attacks are capped at 1.0xSTR bonus. The bow in no way uses your "off-hand."
*Note that "off-hand" is different from off-hand. "Off-hand" is a metaphysical representation of effort and is the important factor in two-weapon fighting. Off-hand is your actual hand, and has nothing to do with two-weapon fighting, but it is what you use to hold a bow.
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Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon’s use (simple,
martial, or exotic), the weapon’s usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).
Distance enchantment on a Spear? Yes.
Rapid Shot with a Spear? Yes.
You can't just use three words. You have to use the entire sentence. The weapon "not you" is what determines how bane interacts. If "you" determined how bane affected creatures then that would be correct, but "you" have no influence on what bane type that weapon is.That has nothing to do with the bane property. The spell can not change how the weapon works.I think RAI you're totally right.
I just don't see how by RAW, you get around the spell specifically calling out "for all purposes" and places no restrictions on what "all purposes" applies to.
Could you not say that "I treat that enemy as <insert type here> for the purpose of wielding any weapon with the bane property" and have that be covered under the umbrella of "for all purposes" ?
The only thing that wouldn't make this work is that if it were somewhere defined that the types mentioned in favored enemies, are not in any way related to creature types, which is a hard argument to make I think.
Let me preface that I read these forums a lot and have come to value your opinion so please don't think I am just trying to be obstinate.
I understand that I can't influence what type of bane a weapon is, but from the spell it seems that I can influence what the enemies type is.
I wasn't trying to imply that I was changing the type of bane, but changing the type of enemy. My understanding, and the source of my argument, is as follows.
Instant enemy allows a character to:
" Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes"
Say I have aberration as one of my favored enemy types and I cast this spell on an elf. I may now treat that elf as "that type of favored enemy for all purposes" or that I may now treat the elf as an aberration for all purposes.
Now what is preventing me as a player (under the catch all of for all purposes) from saying that I treat that enemy as an aberration for the purposes of attacking that enemy with an aberration bane weapon (or in a broad sense, for all my attacks)?
When I now attack that enemy, I am attacking an aberration, not an elf (or maybe both, I am not sure if one overwrites the other). When I attack that creature with the aberration bane weapon, I am attacking an aberration with a bane aberration weapon.
This works because, unless it specifically is called out as such (say with the dancing property), when a player attacks something, it is the "PC" attacking, not the weapon. I realize that this may be the flaw in my argument, but I haven't found anything to refute this.
Following with that assumption, that an attack is made by the PC, then an attack is determined by the PC and said attack falls under the "You may treat that enemy as an aberration for all purposes" clause of IE.
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Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon’s use (simple,
martial, or exotic), the weapon’s usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).Distance enchantment on a Spear? Yes.
Rapid Shot with a Spear? Yes.
That's great, but they have weapons that are only thrown that are included in that category. In order for your stance to be valid you'd have to find a rule that states that the weapons category is changed whenever they're thrown rather than simply attacked with.
As it stands a spear is simply a melee weapon that is not improvised for the purpose of throwing. It is a ranged attack, but not a ranged weapon unless you can find something that actually changes its weapon type based on how it is used.
For example less than a paragraph beneath that.
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.Is a spear effective in melee? Not a ranged weapon straight from core.
Are you saying you cannot use Rapid Shot with Daggers, or Spears?
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I believe you are messing up on the way that sentence is worded.
Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
Meaning:
Ranged weapons is:
- Thrown Weapons
- Projectile Weapons that are not effective in melee.
Not:
- Thrown Weapons that are not effective in melee.
- Projectile Weapons that are not effective in melee.
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Are you saying you cannot use Rapid Shot with Daggers, or Spears?I'm saying that's straight up what the book says. It clearly states right out of core that they are not in fact ranged weapons because they can effectively be used in melee. Rapid shot clearly requires a ranged weapon.
Therefore, no they can't use rapid shot by core rules.
Okay, you just tried to say a Bow, was a two-handed weapon, but a Spear, is not a Ranged weapon.
So, you are also saying Point-Blank Shot, and Precise Shot don't work with Daggers and Spears?
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Are they ranged weapons? Clearly not. So no, they don't work with them.Okay, you just tried to say a Bow, was a two-handed weapon, but a Spear, is not a Ranged weapon.
So, you are also saying Point-Blank Shot, and Precise Shot don't work with Daggers and Spears?
Oh, but Bow are two-handed weapons?
You are saying every single thrown build, and every thrown weapon based NPC, ever written, is wrong?
I wonder what the warpriest can do. Hopefully it can keep up with the inquisitor.Warpriests get no real additional damage mechanic. They get some extra feats, enough to snugly fit all the archery stuff they need. They provide a divine caster of some merit, but they aren't going to dominate DPR over any other archer.
I tried to use the archetype that gets smite, and it was not bad, but it was not at the top for DPR. Needing wisdom for spells, even though I only got it high enough to cast the spells, and charisma, and dex, and strength for composite bows did not help either. Maybe with craft wondrous item I could have brought my way into a better DPR, but I only used craft arms and armor.
Way to hijack the thread here. Need a mod to clean this off topic trolling.
Bows are not two-handed weapons.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee , when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Two-handed weapons are a category for the melee use of a weapon. If a bow was a two-handed weapon you would get 1-1/2 the strength bonus.
With that said, the idea of using a bow while TWF'ing has no rule at all because it is a corner case. There are NOT rules for every situation because the designers don't often account for corner cases. We can debate about what the PDT would say, but this is a GM call, until an FAQ or errata is made.
Two-weapon fighting doesn't say "must be one- handed or light" it says "if light, reduce penalty by 2." So, you don't get to do that because it isn't light.
You do need 4 arms to use two bows because the bow entry tells you that you need two hands to hold it. That has nothing to do with it being a two-handed weapon.
The fact that you need both hands to fight means that according to the FAQ and the posts on the subject, a bow subsumes your "offhand."
That means the FAQ is directly applicable because vestigial arms do not grant another "offhand." You still only have a single offhand for attacking with, and thus by the FAQ cannot wield another weapon.
The weird original FAQ claimed directly in the thread that each person has a "hand" and an "offhand" that have nothing to do with actual physical hands.
That being said; the bow requires two hands to wield. The greatsword requires two hands to wield. It has already been ruled that things that you cannot duel wield things that take up your offhand because they have already taken up the non physical "offhand." The same would apply for the bow, because as you already stated, it requires the offhand to wield.
No, the "off-hand" is only used when it has the ability to donate +.5 STR bonus to damage in an attack. Bow attacks are capped at 1.0xSTR bonus. The bow in no way uses your "off-hand."
*Note that "off-hand" is different from off-hand. "Off-hand" is a metaphysical representation of effort and is the important factor in two-weapon fighting. Off-hand is your actual hand, and has nothing to do with two-weapon fighting, but it is what you use to hold a bow.
Where is it that the "off-hand" is only used when it has the ability to donate +.5 str bonus to damage? Two-handed weapon takes two hands to wield, according to someone bows take two hands to wield. If a two-handed weapon uses your "off-hand" then a bow also uses the "off-hand." I don't know of anything that says otherwise.
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Rules forum!
Erm... has anyone ever tried to compare the damage of these things?
Ranger vs ZA Monk vs Sohei Monk vs Paladin ?
I didnt do Ranger or Paladin analysis but They will win if they are fighting their respective enemies (Paladin vs Evil, and Ranger vs Favorite Enemy). Paladins are stupid crazy good at Murdering BBEG's. Not only does he get a bonus on Damage equal to his level when he smites, but he ignores DR. He is by far the best at killing BBEGs.
I did my analysis on Zen Archer, Sohei, and Fighter for pure damage. Zen Archer wins until level 11 when Fighter can pick up Improved Precise shot. Sohei is the last to peek and catches up around level 15. At level 20, the Sohei wins the DPS for anything with 40 AC and lower, do to having more attacks with Flurry. When I put in the 44 AC of the Solar the fighter will edge him out due mostly to the Fighter Capstone.
TLDR:
Zen Archer levels 1-8
Zen Archer/Fighter 9&10 (This is arguable area, depending on how much your grp enforces cover for Improved Precise Shot. My dm strickly enforces these rules)
Fighter levels 11-19
Sohei at level 20 fighting stuff below AC 40
This is just pure damage. I think Zen Archer takes the cake due to all the other things he brings to the table. Also, he is the most playable at lower levels. Especially when not all campaigns even make it to 20.