Resilient Brute and Invulnerable Rager

[DemonSlayer666]

When an ability like Resilient Brute (Half Orc) splits the damage into two different types, how does an Invulnerable Rager's DR handle it when it has DR against both types?

For example, my IR Barbarian has DR 5, and DR 10 vs. non-lethal. He gets critically hit for 30 points of damage, and uses Resilient Brute to split the damage into half lethal and half nonlethal.

What happens?

[DemonSlayer666]

Hmm, no responses.

My guess is that both types of DR apply after the damage is split, reducing the 15 lethal damage by 5, and the non-lethal damage by 10, resulting in 10 points of lethal and 5 points of non-lethal.

The less likely option (IMO) is to apply the DR before the split. But that feels a little clunky.

Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

[AndIMustMask]

shrug.

invulnerable ragers who wanna be really tough to kill also tend to grab the guarded life powers and flesh wound to take advantage of the nonlethal DR/-

[Brotato]

In the order of operations, logical flow to me is Saving Throw, Damage mitigation not-DR/Resistance (incorporeality, for example), Resistance/DR, Vulnerability.

So in this case I would rule that Resilient Brute triggers first, splitting the damage, which is then reduced as applicable by each DR. It's an ability that you get to use at most 2x a day, it's not game breaking, not even really as powerful as a Destined Bloodrager's anti-crit ability.

RAW, there is no absolutely spelled out order of application of variables that affect damage, so you're going to have to deal with a bit of table variance. I feel my order of operations makes the most sense, however.

[Driver 325 yards]

Quote:

Resilent Brute: Once per day, when a creature confirms a critical hit against you, you may treat half the damage as nonlethal damage. You cannot use this ability if you are immune to nonlethal damage. When your base attack bonus reaches +10, you may use this ability an additional time per day.

So essentially you are struck with a blow that does lethal and nonlethal damage. So if you are hit with 30 point of damage, 15 would be lethal and 15 would be nonlethal. You would apply DR/5- to the lethal. You would apply DR/10- to the nonlethal. You would be left with 10 points of lethal damage and 5 point of nonlethal damage taken.

Sorry Brotato, but in this particular instance I just don't see why there would be any table variation at all. Unless I am missing something that is not plain on the surface, the rules are pretty clear here.

[Driver 325 yards]

AndIMustMask wrote:

shrug.

invulnerable ragers who wanna be really tough to kill also tend to grab the guarded life powers and flesh wound to take advantage of the nonlethal DR/-

Yeah, but you will get some people making some fringe arguments for why Guarded Life is useless for an Invulnerable Rager. You should be prepared to counter them if you are going to play such a barbarian. Its a powerful combination and the more powerful the combination the more fringe that arguments that come out of the wood-works saying that the combination does not work.

[Brotato]

Driver 325 yards wrote:

Quote:

Resilent Brute: Once per day, when a creature confirms a critical hit against you, you may treat half the damage as nonlethal damage. You cannot use this ability if you are immune to nonlethal damage. When your base attack bonus reaches +10, you may use this ability an additional time per day.

So essentially you are struck with a blow that does lethal and nonlethal damage. So if you are hit with 30 point of damage, 15 would be lethal and 15 would be nonlethal. You would apply DR/5- to the lethal. You would apply DR/10- to the nonlethal. You would be left with 10 points of lethal damage and 5 point of nonlethal damage taken.

Sorry Brotato, but in this particular instance I just don't see why there would be any table variation at all. Unless I am missing something that is not plain on the surface, the rules are pretty clear here.

I agree that there *shouldn't* be table variance, but simply accede that there *may* be. I have seen enough arguments trying to apply defensive abilities in the worst order of operations possible (DR before Incorporeality, Vulnerability before Resistance) that I'm simply acknowledging that out there there is almost assuredly someone that does not agree with you and me.

[Driver 325 yards]

DemonSlayer666 wrote:

When an ability like Resilient Brute (Half Orc) splits the damage into two different types, how does an Invulnerable Rager's DR handle it when it has DR against both types?

For example, my IR Barbarian has DR 5, and DR 10 vs. non-lethal. He gets critically hit for 30 points of damage, and uses Resilient Brute to split the damage into half lethal and half nonlethal.

What happens?

By the way, Resilient Brute does not split the damage into two different types. It says you can treat it as two different types. You might think this is insignificant, but it does bypass the fringe argument that those against Guarded Life / Invulnerable Rager will make.

Those arguing against the later combo say that when you hit a barbarian with Guarded Life, the damage is initially all lethal, then you apply your DR v. lethal, then Guarded Life kicks in and turns the remaining lethal damage to nonlethal (they will argue that when this happens the nonlethal damage is no longer weapon damage). Since they argue that the nonlethal damage is no longer weapon damage, they then say your DR v. nonlethal does not apply.

Now I believe that that is a bunch of bunk, but they will argue it. To me the damage still originates from the weapon and the DR v nonlethal would still apply.

In your case, with Resilient Brute, there is no converting lethal to nonlethal (you are just treating it as nonlethal) so there is no fanciful argument that the nonlethal is not coming from a weapon. Since you bypass this fringe argument with Resilient Brute, there is really no contesting that you apply both you DR v lethal and nonlethal to the critical hit.

[Driver 325 yards]

Brotato wrote:

I agree that there *shouldn't* be table variance, but simply accede that there *may* be. I have seen enough arguments trying to apply defensive abilities in the worst order of operations possible (DR before Incorporeality, Vulnerability before Resistance) that I'm simply acknowledging that out there there is almost assuredly someone that does not agree with you and me.

Okay, if I understand you correctly, you are stating that some may say that first your DR kicks in and then Resilient Brute applies. Okay, I think that if someone is making this argument they are clearly wrong because it is counter intuitive. Nonetheless, I have not seen a FAQ on that. Also, if this is what the crux of the issue, I think the OP should change his question so we can get a FAQ on that.

Then again, I still think this particular OP is clear because if you are treating the damage as nonlethal then one of the reason why you would be treating the damage as nonlethal is for the purposes of DR. Thus, the effects of Resilient Brute would come first and DR would come second.

[DemonSlayer666]

Driver 325 yards wrote:

By the way, Resilient Brute does not split the damage into two different types. It says you can treat it as two different types.

(...snip...)
In your case, with Resilient Brute, there is no converting lethal to nonlethal (you are just treating it as nonlethal)
(...snip...)
I think the OP should change his question so we can get a FAQ on that.

Your definition and mine are exactly the same. There is no point in arguing semantics when it is perfectly clear.

@Brotato
Yes, I completely agree that there should be an order of precedence. I like what you are using there, and it feels right in the spirit of the rules.