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Core races. Kellid, Keleshite, and Vudran are all ethnicities of human and have no mechanics you don't find in the CRB; you don't need another book for their stats.
Yeah, that's why the post you are replying to called them ethnicities and referred to them as campaign setting *content.*
It's entirely possible, upthread, that I may have referred to them as races, but I didn't here. Content is content.
Sarenrae, for instance, is core content, because she's in a core book.
The temple sword, even if it didn't exist before Sajan, and is therefore about as 'Iconic' as Paladins of Asmodeus, is still mentioned in the core book, and so it's Game content and not just Campaign Setting content.
But Vudrans, Keleshites, etc. aren't in the core books with the Roleplaying Game tag, they are in the setting-specific books with the Campaign Setting tag.
Linguistics (core 100-102) doesn't list 'Kellid' or 'Vudran' as language options, because they are setting content.
Tengu, on the other hand, *are* present in Roleplaying Game-tagged content (the Bestiary), and not only in Campaign Setting content, making tengu (and aasimar and goblins, etc.) *more* eligible for inclusion as Iconics than Vudrani or Keleshites or Kellids, at least, per the explanation ('not Core') being bandied about, since tengu *are* not only Core, but *more* Core.
If Paizo ain't gonna do a tengu Iconics 'cause it doesn't want to do funny animal race Iconics, that's fine and dandy, and totally their choice to make, and I can even understand why they'd want to stick to more traditional Tolkien-derived fantasy races (especially with the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit movies having elves, dwarves and hobbits back in the public eye), but the 'not Core' argument is riddled with bullets and bleeding out.
Well since the book will focus on Inner Sea races maybe we will get some stuff for Kuru, Ghorans, Monkey Goblins, and some other lesser used or known races.
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But what about childlike emaciated goth lolis who serve as companions to wizened old sorcerers with the Tentacle bloodline?
WAIT WHY IS EVERYBODY LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT PLEASE PUT THAT PITCHFORK AWAYUUUUGHHBRLLLLLL....*expires*
one question: does the wizard cast spells with golf clubs?
On all the others, AWESOME! (Hell's Rebels I'm especially looking forward to, the House of Thrune has had a good face crushing due for a while, and I'm just the PC to do it!)
On the fanservice thing, I say I'm all for equality. As many Bishie's as the ladies want (and throw in some barbarians in loincloths for variety), and chainmail bikinis and Seonis for us fellas.
(Maybe just split the art budget in 3, a third each for male fanservice, female fanservice and backgrounds/others).
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While I agree a more husky iconic isn't a bad idea, it's worth pointing out that an adventurer is someone who's going to use a lot of energy and build up some endurance / muscle. It's just basic biology: if you're constantly moving about on your feet, in combat, or undergoing physical exertion, that's a lot of energy you're burning. Likewise, while maintaining a diet mostly comprised of trail rations, cheap and simple tavern fare, or whatever they can get via Survival, the sort of rich and additive / harmful chemical-laced foods that contribute to a more overweight population in modern-day America isn't going to find a way into your system, for the most part. This doesn't guarantee you'll be as slim / buff as a Hollywood star or whatever, but I find it a dubious claim that even an 8th level wizard is going to look like Orson Welles did later in life.
However-- while not entirely disagreeing with your point-- you wouldn't see completely obese and totally out of shape folks out there adventuring...
I knew some pretty hefty people when I was in the US Army, who while they were constantly pushing the boundaries of the military weight control program (and sometimes exceeding those boundaries), could still run, jump, march long distances with heavy loads and fight with the best of them-- without running out of energy or breath. Also knew a hefty mechanic or two in the Army who had barrel-guts to go along with barrel chests-- who could press diesel engine-packs that would crush most guys. And these guys were living off of field rations, mess hall food, etc... to add to that-- I was "too heavy" for the basic height-weight table of the Army for all of my last 16 years in the military-- I was acceptable according to the tape-measure "body fat percentage" tests all those years, but while I'm not obese, I'm not skinny either-- and I kept up in the field, at PT, and at war/on deployment (5'9" tall, 220 lbs while I was in, 5'9", 225 lbs now-- can still do pullups, push ups and such; can't run anymore because I've got foot & ankle injuries, not because of weight or endurance issues).
At my first civvy job for the government (post-military retirement), less than a year ago, I was still working for the Army on a military base, and saw one or two guys on the weight-program, getting threatened with being kicked out for their "extra girth" who also had top scores on the PT test and had the best times for 12 mile road marches in their units. And saw plenty of skinny kids, not overweight at all, who couldn't keep up with the basic physical fitness performance standards-- just not strong enough, not enough endurance.
So-- I find it easy to imagine some pretty solid, stout, carrying-some-extra-pounds got-a-big-beer-gut but still strong-as-a-horse adventurers out there. It's also easy to imagine the spell-chuckers and support characters in between-- not super-strong, carrying some extra weight, but not totally out of shape either and can handle the field life. It'd be nice to see some more of them in the art-work, and as heroes, not enemies or villains.
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Wasn't their someone on the forum who keeps on pushing forchildlike emaciated goth lolisHow horrifying and completely out of place in Pathfinder.Funny, I was going to say the same thing about bishonen :p
Course I hate most anime so... what we need is more Jojo's characters. Ridiculous proportions with fabulous poses. Would be funny.
I swear to Wakamoto, if there is some psychic powered fighter in the Occult Adventures book, and he is not in some way a reference to Jonathan Joestar, I will want to nerd rage unto
"Furueru zo haato! Moetsukiru hodo hiito! Hooaaaaaaaaaah...Kisamu zo, ketsueki no biito!!"SUNLIGHT YELLOW...OVERDRIVE!
Stands sound like a psionic class feature of some kind. I would be surprised if we don't get something like them.
Johnathon is my main in ASB. Also play a lot of Wham.
I too would love to have a martial class with telekinetic reinforcement. That can punch people and explode energy from their fists.
A sexy half-orc dude... that's all I want... is that really so much to ask for?
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A sexy half-orc dude... that's all I want... is that really so much to ask for?
Absolutely not. :) (art by NEN, actually picked up a print at Gencon and using it for my half-orc in Jade Regent!)
While I agree a more husky iconic isn't a bad idea, it's worth pointing out that an adventurer is someone who's going to use a lot of energy and build up some endurance / muscle. It's just basic biology: if you're constantly moving about on your feet, in combat, or undergoing physical exertion, that's a lot of energy you're burning. Likewise, while maintaining a diet mostly comprised of trail rations, cheap and simple tavern fare, or whatever they can get via Survival, the sort of rich and additive / harmful chemical-laced foods that contribute to a more overweight population in modern-day America isn't going to find a way into your system, for the most part. This doesn't guarantee you'll be as slim / buff as a Hollywood star or whatever, but I find it a dubious claim that even an 8th level wizard is going to look like Orson Welles did later in life.However-- while not entirely disagreeing with your point-- you wouldn't see completely obese and totally out of shape folks out there adventuring...
I knew some pretty hefty people when I was in the US Army, who while they were constantly pushing the boundaries of the military weight control program (and sometimes exceeding those boundaries), could still run, jump, march long distances with heavy loads and fight with the best of them-- without running out of energy or breath. Also knew a hefty mechanic or two in the Army who had barrel-guts to go along with barrel chests-- who could press diesel engine-packs that would crush most guys. And these guys were living off of field rations, mess hall food, etc... to add to that-- I was "too heavy" for the basic height-weight table of the Army for all of my last 16 years in the military-- I was acceptable according to the tape-measure "body fat percentage" tests all those years, but while I'm not obese, I'm not skinny either-- and I kept up in the field, at PT, and at war/on deployment (5'9" tall, 220 lbs while I was in, 5'9", 225 lbs now-- can still do pullups, push ups and such;...
Not only that but to argue against heavy pcs is to argue against weak ones. you would build a lot of muscle living that way. No tiny folks or lazy lab mage is going to last long without gaining the muscle of a hero.
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Not entirely sure if he's supposed to be a tiefling, but I'm calling him one as long as I'm looking...
And a possible Shelyn worshipper apparently. ;)
(and she has a decent following in Cheliax too!)
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Good looking young (early adulthood) male iconic (not necessarily effeminate).
Old Lady Iconic (that we see more than just her eyes).
Hermaphrodite Iconic?
Siamese Twins Iconics?
Young (below adulthood) Iconics (something younger player might relate to)?
Their are already alot of shirtless male iconics so I'd like to stay away from that. a youngish iconic and an elderly felmale make sense. I would definitely like to see a "thicker iconic" someone towards the higher weight scale.
Personally I'd like an exceptionally tall iconic (as a person that exceeds racial maximums I feel that blatant heightism in Pathfinder deserves some notice).
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There are already alot of shirtless male iconics so I'd like to stay away from that. A youngish iconic and an elderly female make sense. I would definitely like to see a "thicker iconic" someone towards the higher weight scale.
I know that drawing chain mail is a pain in the butt, but I'd like to see more characters (male and female) wearing chain shirts, breastplates and / or leather armor, as well as perhaps some crazy fool wearing one of the armor types that nobody ever wears anyway, like banded or scale or splint. (I've honestly seen more characters wearing dragonscale or ironwood breastplates, than banded or scale or splint! Indeed, the last time I saw scale armor was in 2nd edition, when Sea Elven Scale was a poor man's Elven Chainmail for your armored wizard spellcasting needs!)
A young wizard apprentice or acolyte cleric or witch could be interesting (although some wag will decry it as a Harry Potter nod, as if there were never young adventurers like Ged (Wizard of Earthsea) or Pug (Magician) or the kid from the Dragonslayer movie before J.K. Rowlings...).
And yeah, a portly Caydenite cleric, or a stout Trapsmith rogue (not all rogues are acrobats!), or even a burly Fighter could be something new. Or just throw expectations out the window and have an overweight Paladin! Anything but a bloatmage. There's no more need for a fat NPC to have 'fat superpowers' than there is for a black one to have 'black superpowers' or a gay one to have 'gay superpowers.'
Personally I'd like an exceptionally tall iconic (as a person that exceeds racial maximums I feel that blatant heightism in Pathfinder deserves some notice).
It might add to the 'our elves are aliens!' aesthetic (along with the dead black eyes) if a small sub-population of elves (perhaps those 'fresh through the gate' from Sovyrian) average seven feet tall!
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I'd like to see more of those kinds of things, but you're not really describing iconics here. We already have Iconic wizards, clerics, fighters, etc.
As I don't yet know the six new classes coming up, I used wizard, cleric, fighter, etc. as examples of what sorts of character types would be neat to see.
Hermaphrodite Iconic?
That said, it would probably gain more traction if the iconic were described as intersex vs. hermaphrodite (unless we're talking about aberrations, outsiders, tieflings, etc.).
Hermaphrodite Iconic?That said, it would probably gain more traction if the iconic were described as intersex vs. hermaphrodite (unless we're talking about aberrations, outsiders, tieflings, etc.).
Granted "true" hermaphrodites are way rarer than Intersex, but if we are talking about a fantasy world...
Granted "true" hermaphrodites are way rarer than Intersex, but if we are talking about a fantasy world...Hermaphrodite Iconic?That said, it would probably gain more traction if the iconic were described as intersex vs. hermaphrodite (unless we're talking about aberrations, outsiders, tieflings, etc.).
I meant that by using intersex instead of hermaphrodite more people would be willing to voice their support for such an iconic. "Hermaphrodite" comes loaded with baggage that, at best, tends to distance people from openly supporting it and, at worst, deeply offends. Again, , but I've seen (in-person and online) how many people react to certain terms.
I would definitely like to see a "thicker iconic" someone towards the higher weight scale.
And yeah, a portly Caydenite cleric, or a stout Trapsmith rogue (not all rogues are acrobats!), or even a burly Fighter could be something new. Or just throw expectations out the window and have an overweight Paladin! Anything but a bloatmage.
This is something that's always disappoints me about fantasy art: no or very few heavyset characters. Rarely, I find something like this that sort of fits the bill, but it's usually either fetish-fuel or a kind of "monstrous" or freakish fat stereotype (i.e. bloatmages). I can appreciate all three types, but I think the realistic one is the only option for an iconic.
The argument that "you can't be fat and be an adventurer, because I think it's weird/thick sizes aren't attractive to me/diet, anatomy, & exercise assumptions" is just weak and dismissive. Imagine a chubby wizard with a full laboratory and library in their home, no physical training to speak of, spends most of their time solving arcane/supernatural dilemmas, and only travels to other cities/settlements--not such an impossible aesthetic anymore.
[slight tangent]
I've also noticed that mages/casters tend to be either older average-sized men, sexy women, or some tiny race/creature...why can't we see any tall and thick Ulfen types in very civilized caster roles?
[/slight tangent]
So yeah, more plus-size characters please.
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[slight tangent]
I've also noticed that mages/casters tend to be either older average-sized men, sexy women, or some tiny race/creature...why can't we see any tall and thick Ulfen types in very civilized caster roles?
[/slight tangent]
If point-buy is the only way it's done, then it might make sense that wizards might be scrawny folk, children, elderly, etc. But with rolled-stats as an option, it's entirely possible that a wizard might have a decent Str score, and be pretty buff.
Certainly, I'm all for non-traditional appearances. Stout Dwarven wizards. Lithe (Elven?) Dex fighters. A burly half-orc 'thug' rogue.
A Rule 63 Alhazra, named Alhazred, who is all scraggly-beared, Einstein-haired and wild-eyed and very much the spitting image of a certain 'mad Arab.'
I meant that by using intersex instead of hermaphrodite more people would be willing to voice their support for such an iconic. "Hermaphrodite" comes loaded with baggage that, at best, tends to distance people from openly supporting it and, at worst, deeply offends. Again, , but I've seen (in-person and online) how many people react to certain terms.Granted "true" hermaphrodites are way rarer than Intersex, but if we are talking about a fantasy world...Hermaphrodite Iconic?That said, it would probably gain more traction if the iconic were described as intersex vs. hermaphrodite (unless we're talking about aberrations, outsiders, tieflings, etc.).
Why not both?
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A different Gender Equality thing.
An interesting point of view.
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A different Gender Equality thing.
An interesting point of view.
That was an interesting read, thanks for the link. We do need some more actually scary looking lady monsters just as much as we need bishie native outsiders.
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That said, it would probably gain more traction if the iconic were described as intersex vs. hermaphrodite (unless we're talking about aberrations, outsiders, tieflings, etc.).
Hermaphrodite as a term has some baggage.
While it has been used in print to describe for instance tieflings that are actually hermaphriditic, or species like proteans that can be when the mood strikes them to be so... the term has been mis-used in the real world enough as a slur against intersex persons.
As such I've been convinced by several folks to actually avoid using the term in the future if possible, and I intend to respect their request.
Now intersex isn't biologically accurate if the person or creature has both male and female organs (like some proteans for instance), but because of the real world baggage for the technical term, I'll personally be using a different word (dual gendered, bi-gendered, etc) in the future.
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A Rule 63 Alhazra, named Alhazred, who is all scraggly-beared, Einstein-haired and wild-eyed and very much the spitting image of a certain 'mad Arab.'
I could totally go with this. :D
There would have to be artwork in the style of 'Undead Revisited' (where the iconics were being killed by the monster in each chapter) except for him it would just have him being devoured alive by invisible monsters in a public market.
Why not both?I meant that by using intersex instead of hermaphrodite more people would be willing to voice their support for such an iconic. "Hermaphrodite" comes loaded with baggage that, at best, tends to distance people from openly supporting it and, at worst, deeply offends. Again, , but I've seen (in-person and online) how many people react to certain terms.Granted "true" hermaphrodites are way rarer than Intersex, but if we are talking about a fantasy world...Hermaphrodite Iconic?That said, it would probably gain more traction if the iconic were described as intersex vs. hermaphrodite (unless we're talking about aberrations, outsiders, tieflings, etc.).
And once more, I'd love to see either. If people are fine with the terminology, I sure as hell don't have any problems with it. My caution comes from one of my players (always plays androgynous and intersex characters) getting a crash-course in etiquette from one of the trans* players at my table. Once the dust settled, everyone understood each other, but not every group has such a stable, compassionate, and witty GM such as myself (I kept communication civil by pathetically pleading ).
Edit: And I'm ninja'd while I was distracted
Now intersex isn't biologically accurate if the person or creature has both male and female organs (like some proteans for instance), but because of the real world baggage for the technical term, I'll personally be using a different word (dual gendered, bi-gendered, etc) in the future.
"Androgynous"?
Androgynous already has the definition of someone that has the appearance of one gender while being another; I don't think it would work trying to use the term for the slightly different situation of actually being both.
Androgynous already has the definition of someone that has the appearance of one gender while being another; I don't think it would work trying to use the term for the slightly different situation of actually being both.
It's got a wide range of options in addition to more recent uses.
Wasn't their someone on the forum who keeps on pushing forchildlike emaciated goth lolisHow horrifying and completely out of place in Pathfinder.Funny, I was going to say the same thing about bishonen :p
Course I hate most anime so... what we need is more Jojo's characters. Ridiculous proportions with fabulous poses. Would be funny.
I swear to Wakamoto, if there is some psychic powered fighter in the Occult Adventures book, and he is not in some way a reference to Jonathan Joestar, I will want to nerd rage unto
"Furueru zo haato! Moetsukiru hodo hiito! Hooaaaaaaaaaah...Kisamu zo, ketsueki no biito!!"SUNLIGHT YELLOW...OVERDRIVE!
Yare Yare Daze...
Also Funny Valentine > all :)
Dojaa~n!!
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The argument that "you can't be fat and be an adventurer, because I think it's weird/thick sizes aren't attractive to me/diet, anatomy, & exercise assumptions" is just weak and dismissive. Imagine a chubby wizard with a full laboratory and library in their home, no physical training to speak of, spends most of their time solving arcane/supernatural dilemmas, and only travels to other cities/settlements--not such an impossible aesthetic anymore.
Even better, heavier body types might actually be more suited to certain classes. Assuming, of course, that the information here is correct. I'm not sure. But the heavier example given seems extremely practical for a barbarian or ranger, someone who's spent long years fighting and surviving in the wilds.
I've also noticed that mages/casters tend to be either older average-sized men, sexy women, or some tiny race/creature...why can't we see any tall and thick Ulfen types in very civilized caster roles?
So yeah, more plus-size characters please.
It also opens up the idea of adventuring being very much a secondary way of life as a backstory. Maybe I have a character who isn't very in-shape due to being a caster, but has never had to leave town before the big bad sends a minion to raze the place. The reaction to a heavier mage used to the soft life fleeing everything and still covered in soot from the wreckage would probably garner less a reaction of "How are you fat, you're an adventurer" and more "Dear gods, at least someone survived that massacre. We're all going to miss your beloved hometown's prized export."
So yeah. Seconding the alternate body-types. And skin tones.
That said, it would probably gain more traction if the iconic were described as intersex vs. hermaphrodite (unless we're talking about aberrations, outsiders, tieflings, etc.).
Hermaphrodite as a term has some baggage.
While it has been used in print to describe for instance tieflings that are actually hermaphriditic, or species like proteans that can be when the mood strikes them to be so... the term has been mis-used in the real world enough as a slur against intersex persons.
As such I've been convinced by several folks to actually avoid using the term in the future if possible, and I intend to respect their request.
Now intersex isn't biologically accurate if the person or creature has both male and female organs (like some proteans for instance), but because of the real world baggage for the technical term, I'll personally be using a different word (dual gendered, bi-gendered, etc) in the future.
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Glad to see some people on board for having some heavier iconics. I'm a pretty big guy myself, but I also have muscle. We definitely need some bruisers, whether male or female
Bearded Lady and other circus tropes/characters.
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Possible Shoanti with orcish heritage? Personally, this is too skinny for a proper half-orc, but I certainly see the appeal.
Possible tiefling ninja or slayer in, what looks like, Batman armor.
Possible older tiefling caster for cold settings with a slightly unusual look.
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Possible Shoanti with orcish heritage? Personally, this is too skinny for a proper half-orc, but I certainly see the appeal.
:)
Might as well dip into my own well. Tiefling paladin WotR PC portraits:
Might as well dip into my own well. Tiefling paladin WotR PC portraits:
That's pretty awesome :)
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In terms of race: I think that our iconics will cover each core race except the half-elf. We already have three of those.
As for body types... yes, please. As a sizable fellow, I'd love to see a larger iconic. A child iconic would work really well to help bring in the kids. It is time for an older female iconic. Also, I would love to see a nonhuman iconic of colour. We kind of have that in Shardra, but she can be seen as tanned. Nonhumans are typically defaulted as white when they have human-ranged skin, and it would be great for Paizo to expand out of that trend. I'd love a Black elf, an East Asian dwarf, a Latin@ halfling... you get the idea.
As for sexy men... yes, but I should add that my idea of sexy is less Vega, more Zangief. A husky, hairy, loincloth-clad iconic would do all kinds of things to me. Just saying.
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I asked James Jacobs what he thought of a husky iconic and a young iconic back in his thread. His response seemed pro-husky but unsure of a young iconic. American society doesn't take well to children in danger. So here's a thought:
The husky iconic is female. Our culture has a bit of a stigma against larger people and forces preconceived notions of body size on its citizens, but this is more evident for women then it is for men. Show that Golarion is a place where truly anyone can be a hero by having a middle-aged, husky woman as an iconic.
For kicks, let's REALLY confuse people by making the young iconic someone who isn't human. For example, the dwarf "Youth" age category starts at 20 years of age. Make the iconic Youth a dwarf because by our standards, he'd be an adult. Better still, make the iconic youth male so we can get a picture of a male dwarf without a fully-grown beard as an iconic.
Plus interactions between the young iconic and Harsk could be potentially hilarious. Especially if the youth was a Pahmat deserter.
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I'd disagree on the children in danger argument if only because of how common young protagonists are in media. Percy Jackson, Harry Potter, Avatar Aang, Finn the Human. Not one of their series begins with them over sixteen. I don't think Katniss Everdeen was much older, either. If you factor in anime like Bleach or Sailor Moon, the number of teenage protagonists skyrocket. Yes, these series are intended for younger audiences, but plenty of adults enjoy them as well.
Start your young iconic off at around fifteen or so, the low end on the age chart for humans IIRC, and that's well within parameters for a lot of popular fiction and still younger than the iconics with a well-established adult backstory.
If there's still the concern, stress the idea that the kid's clearly got adults looking after him or her while the party adventures. Some of the APs and modules have clearly put children in danger before, whether explicitly as an effect of the main plot or as optional sidequests. The difference here would be that the adolescent in question has the power to fight back against circumstance.
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For kicks, let's REALLY confuse people by making the young iconic someone who isn't human. For example, the dwarf "Youth" age category starts at 20 years of age. Make the iconic Youth a dwarf because by our standards, he'd be an adult. Better still, make the iconic youth male so we can get a picture of a male dwarf without a fully-grown beard as an iconic.
I don't care one way or the other about the idea of a 'young iconic,' but the idea of a beardless dwarf male is all kinds of cool and stereotype-defying.