Maximizing Strength Bloodrager

[Rambear]

I was wondering about the following;

The general consensus seems to be that Dragon Disciple levels would not stack with the Bloodrager's bloodline, RAW. This because the Dragon Disciple specifically calls out sorcerer levels. RAI this might be doubtful though, but hey, it is what it is.

If this is true, then Eldritch Heritage would also key of sorcerer bloodlines, implying that because you do noy have a sorcerer bloodline, but a bloodrager bloodline, you could double-dip Bloodrager Abyssal (Morale bonus to Strength) and EH- Abyssal (+6 unnamed bonus).

So, considering this, I was looking at the following build:

Crossblooded Rager (Abyssal/Draconic)
Skill Focus Planes, EH (Abyssal), Improved Eh (Strength of the Abyss.

At level 20, when bloodraging this would give:

+19 (starting stat)
+ 5 (level adjustment)
+ 6 (Belt)
+ 14 (level 12 abyssal ability, rage at level 20, moral bonus)
+ 6 (Inherent from Strength of the Abyss)
+ 6 (size from Form of the Dragon IIm, gained at bloodrager.

Thats a whopping Strength score of 56, without the need to cast any buffs. And you could do that for a minimum of 24 rounds (unless, negative con bonus) per day!

Assuming an amulet of Mighty Fist +5 at level 20 during Rage (Dragon Form) you would do the following (assuming haste):

Bite, Bite (haste) +49 (x2, 2d6 + 39), average 92 damage
Claw, Claw +49 (x2), 1d8 + 28), average 65 damage
Wing, Wing +44 (x2, 1d6 + 16), average 39 damage
Tailslap +44 (x2, 1d8 + 39), average 43 damage.

Thats a damage potential of 239 damage, with merely one spell cast (haste) and at +44 for secondary attacks all attacks hitting is likely .

This excludes any other feats you might take such as power attack, Dragon Style Feats.

Add to this the possibility of an Intimidating Prowess/Demoralizing build, and you could be in for good times!

You could even have a friendly caster cast Moment of Greatnness on you for an awesome 70 strength on one attack.

I was wondering if anybody has an idea on how to further increase strength? Alchemist would not work, due to needing 20 levels of Bloodrager. +2 profane from a Succubus would possibly work?

Also, would my reading of bloodrager, sorcerer and Eldritch Heritage bloodlines be correct?

[Arcturus24]

Seems solid, but I do have a way for a feat to give +2 profane strength: Demonic Obedience (Anghazan), at level 20.

[blackbloodtroll]

What's the rules question?

[Rambear]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

What's the rules question?

Am I correct in assuming that you can stack Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) with the Abyssal Bloodrager bloodline?

Edit: Could always go with Orc bloodline for EH.

[Deadmanwalking]

Rambear wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

What's the rules question?

Am I correct in assuming that you can stack Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) with the Abyssal Bloodrager bloodline?

I don't see anything disallowing it.

[blackbloodtroll]

Ah.

You had a bunch of stuff on advice for a build, and the core rules question was lost.

Yes, they are providing different abilities, and bonuses.

I would be wary of using it in PFS though.

[Claxon]

They are technically different. I'm not sure if they should or shouldn't stack.

As a GM, I wouldn't allow it until I see something specifying that it should be allowed because both are the same bloodline.

[Rambear]

Claxon wrote:

They are technically different. I'm not sure if they should or shouldn't stack.

As a GM, I wouldn't allow it until I see something specifying that it should be allowed because both are the same bloodline.

I take this to mean that you would ban it from your table based on the fact that the Abyssal bloodrage line and the Abyssal sorcerer bloodline are the same bloodline.

Would this also mean that draconic bloodrager bloodline equals the draconic sorcerer bloodline, allowing a player to stack Dragon Disciple and Draconic Bloodrager?

[Gjorbjond]

Even though the bloodlines provide different abilities based on which class you take, they're still bloodlines and EH says it has to be one you don't already have.

Go with Orc bloodline and you're fine.

[Gjorbjond]

You can multiclass sorcerer and bloodrager. If you do, you have to pick the same bloodline. Their powers don't stack and you end up with redundant abilities.

If you make a draconic bloodline bloodrager, you can go into dragon disciple, but you'll start getting redundant sorcerer bloodline powers.

[Claxon]

Rambear wrote:

I take this to mean that you would ban it from your table based on the fact that the Abyssal bloodrage line and the Abyssal sorcerer bloodline are the same bloodline.

Basically, yes. To me they are effectively the same bloodline. You shouldn't get redudant abilities in my opinion. Unless otherwise clarified to work by Paizo, as a GM I wouldn't let it fly.

Quote:

Would this also mean that draconic bloodrager bloodline equals the draconic sorcerer bloodline, allowing a player to stack Dragon Disciple and Draconic Bloodrager?

Possibly. It's not really clear whether they should stack or not. At this time, it seems like they might. But it seems like they shouldn't.

If we assume that having a bloodrager bloodline is basically equal to having the same named sorcerer bloodline, then Eldritch Heritage would prevent you from double dipping into the same. Of course, as mentioned you could take Orc bloodline for the strength bonus. As a GM while I may not necessarily like that, I can find no just cause to prevent it as there is with Abyssal Bloodrager bloodline and Abyssal Sorcerer bloodline.

[Rambear]

To be honest, I do not see the problem in them stacking.

For a four level dip you would lose;

- 8 rounds of rage
- 1 bab (losing the 4th itterative)
- 1 level of spellcasting

While you gain;

- + 4 strength
- dragon bite
- Slight increase to natural AC.

Is this strictly speaking better? Probably it is. Is it earth-shattering? Probably not.

But very often dips are made because they add somthing more powerful/flavourful, so I do not see the problem in advancing the bloodrager bloodline with levels in DD. For a 10 level dip the difference would probably be smaller still.

More importantly, I would think that maintaining such a strict divide between sorcerer and bloodrager bloodlines. In most cases it will cause doubble-dipping, especially between bloodrager bloodlines and eldritch heritage.

[Calth]

Draconic(bloodrager) and Draconic(sorcerer) are different bloodlines. The only thing relating them is that if you have one, you must gain the other if take levels in the respective class and they are both bloodline(draconic). Until a FAQ or errata changes it, DD will only advance Draconic(sorcerer) because it currently explicitly refers to sorcerers. Yes, bloodrager didnt exist when DD was written, but this concern was brought up a ton during the playtest, and was never addressed. It would have been simple to write a "Special:This bloodline is advanced by the dragon disciple prestige class" exception, but they didnt. Compare with eldritch heritage which just calls out bloodline, not sorcerer bloodline, so you cant double up there.

Take a careful look at the magic items section of the ACG. There are several references to bloodline class feature, which both sorcerer and bloodrager have, and then seperate references to bloodrager bloodlines and sorcerer bloodlines. For example, amulet of the blooded won't improve bloodrager bloodlines, you only get the normal effect. Ring of ancestral blood magic wouldnt let you cast sorcerer bonus spells if you multi-class.

[Rambear]

I'll look up the items. And you are probably right.

Eldritch Heritage however you are wrong about. It does specifically call out sorcerer bloodlines. Moreover, EH even gives you an effective sorcere level (char level -2) and can only be taken specifically at levels which arr related to the level at which sorcerers get their bloodline powers.

[Calth]

Eldritch Heritage:

Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.

Bloodrager abyssal counts as having an abyssal bloodline for this, but is not a valid target for EH because EH gives you sorcerer bloodline powers. Think of it this way, there is one Abyssal bloodline, but two different manifestations: sorcerer and bloodrager. Both count as having a given bloodline, but their levels do not stack, and all effects call out which they improve, and its always an either or. Think of the worst-case scenario, and thats basically how it works. For anything negative you have both, for anything positive you have one.

[Chess Pwn]

right, but he can still take the orc for the strength, so that's not that big of an issue.

[Rambear]

Bolding one sentence and ignoring the rest of the text does not make you right ;).

It starts of by saying you select 'a sorcerer bloodline'. Subsequently it states 'This bloodline cannot be...'. 'This always refers back to an entity/object which has previously been discussed. In this case the selected sorceror bloodline. It even states that you gain a sorcerer level.

Ie, everywhere in the text they mention sorcerers, the fact that your bolded section doesn't, does not mean that what has preceded or followed it can be ignored. At the time of writing there were no other bloodlines than sorcerer bloodlines. Thus at the time of writing the EH feat it should be read;

'This (selected sorcerer) bloodline cannot be a sorcerer bloodline you already have (acquired through another EH or sorcerer levels).

Finally, I do think that the bolded section was made in to prevent gaining multiple uses (ie double dipping) the same bloodline. RAI I can see the same going for going bloodrager and EH in a similarly named bloodline. However, RAW I caanot see that they are mutually exclusive.

[Chess Pwn]

I'm with calth. you have an abyssal bloodline, so picking the sorcerer's abyssal is out. The second use of bloodline doesn't specify sorcerer, only the first bloodline references sorcerer.

[Rambear]

Indeed, the second use of bloodline does not refer solely to sorcerer. It also refers to a sorcerer bloodline you have selected when you previously took Eldritch Heritage.

At the time of writing there were only sorcerer bloodlines. Spelling it out again while the meaning was specified in the previous sentence seems... redundant (as redundant as trying to take the same ability when combing sorcerer and bloodrager).

[B0sh1]

Just as a FYI, at least in Hero Lab, you cannot take Eldritch Heritage for Orc, you can only take it for available Bloodrager bloodlines. So, it appears gaining a 3rd non-Bloodrager bloodline is not be a valid choice at least as interpreted by HL. Ask your GM.

The good news is you can take EH Abyssal using HL.

[Calth]

B0sh1 wrote:

Just as a FYI, at least in Hero Lab, you cannot take Eldritch Heritage for Orc, you can only take it for available Bloodrager bloodlines. So, it appears gaining a 3rd non-Bloodrager bloodline is not be a valid choice at least as interpreted by HL. Ask your GM.

The good news is you can take EH Abyssal using HL.

Hero Lab is not a rules source, and is completely wrong in this case. Bloodrager bloodlines are not valid choices for EH, only sorcerer bloodlines, and the only restriction is it cannot be one you already have.

[kestral287]

Calth wrote:

Draconic(bloodrager) and Draconic(sorcerer) are different bloodlines. The only thing relating them is that if you have one, you must gain the other if take levels in the respective class and they are both bloodline(draconic).

Calth wrote:

Bloodrager abyssal counts as having an abyssal bloodline for this, but is not a valid target for EH because EH gives you sorcerer bloodline powers. Think of it this way, there is one Abyssal bloodline, but two different manifestations: sorcerer and bloodrager.

This seems... contradictory, to say the least.

Either the two bloodlines are effectively the same, or they are not. There's no "The two class' bloodlines are unrelated except when they are even though they aren't".

By RAW, a Bloodrager bloodline is not a Sorcerer bloodline in any way. By RAW, whether you have an Abyssal Bloodline for Bloodrager is irrelevant when considering Eldritch Heritage, because a Bloodrager is not a Sorcerer in any way, and their bloodlines are not Sorcerer bloodlines. The only concern that taking EH (Abyssal) with an Abyssal Bloodrager raises is that it makes it impossible for you to ever take a level of Sorcerer. If you don't care about that, you're fine.

What goes on in RAI and GMland may be different. Personally I would like to see them overlap and would consider ruling as such... but in this particular instance, that works for you. You'd just have to trade out your EH (Abyssal) for EH (Orc), which has an identical 9th level power, and if they do overlap then you can progress your bloodline with Dragon Disciple... which is another +4 strength. Even with you missing 20th level rage, that'd put you slightly ahead.

[Calth]

kestral287 wrote:

Calth wrote:

Draconic(bloodrager) and Draconic(sorcerer) are different bloodlines. The only thing relating them is that if you have one, you must gain the other if take levels in the respective class and they are both bloodline(draconic).

Calth wrote:

Bloodrager abyssal counts as having an abyssal bloodline for this, but is not a valid target for EH because EH gives you sorcerer bloodline powers. Think of it this way, there is one Abyssal bloodline, but two different manifestations: sorcerer and bloodrager.

This seems... contradictory, to say the least.

Either the two bloodlines are effectively the same, or they are not. There's no "The two class' bloodlines are unrelated except when they are even though they aren't".

By RAW, a Bloodrager bloodline is not a Sorcerer bloodline in any way. By RAW, whether you have an Abyssal Bloodline for Bloodrager is irrelevant when considering Eldritch Heritage, because a Bloodrager is not a Sorcerer in any way, and their bloodlines are not Sorcerer bloodlines. The only concern that taking EH (Abyssal) with an Abyssal Bloodrager raises is that it makes it impossible for you to ever take a level of Sorcerer. If you don't care about that, you're fine.

RAW, you cannot take EH for the sorcerer bloodline of a bloodrager bloodline you have. The exclusion for EH is X bloodline, it in no way references sorcerer in that portion of the feat, partly because there were no other bloodlines at that point. It also fits the RAI nature of hybrid classes, regarding redundant abilities, and there are several items in the ACG that reference bloodlines generally and bloodrager or sorcerer specifically. For example, there is only Abyssal bloodhunting weapons, not Abyssal(sorcerer) or Abyssal(bloodrager). Abyssal is abyssal, with each source granting bloodline powers specifying which of bloodrager or sorcerer it grants and/or advances. Nothing in the game advances both, or gives you an option of which to advance. In my first post, calling them different sub-bloodlines would be more accurate, which is what the last sentence indicates.

[kestral287]

An Abyssal Bloodrager does not have, in any way, a Sorcerer Bloodline. As you yourself pointed out while discussing the Draconic Bloodrager bloodline in reference to Dragon Disciple, the two are entirely unrelated, save that the bloodlines need to match if you take levels of Sorcerer later. An item that's related to the two isn't really relevant to a feat that only ever mentions Sorcerer bloodlines.

Really, there is no RAW support for claiming both cannot be taken. Eldritch Heritage is explicitly referring to a Sorcerer bloodline. A Bloodrager is not a Sorcerer. It does not get Sorcerer bloodlines. Hence, Abyssal McRager does not have an Abyssal Sorcerer bloodline... and can freely take the Abyssal bloodline via Eldritch Heritage.

Whether or not it fits RAI is a different question... but explicitly not the question at hand.

[Moto Muck]

I'm not completely sure about this but haste does not add extra natural attacks (only unless they are unarmed)- so no extra bite

[B0sh1]

Calth wrote:

B0sh1 wrote:

Just as a FYI, at least in Hero Lab, you cannot take Eldritch Heritage for Orc, you can only take it for available Bloodrager bloodlines. So, it appears gaining a 3rd non-Bloodrager bloodline is not be a valid choice at least as interpreted by HL. Ask your GM.

The good news is you can take EH Abyssal using HL.

Hero Lab is not a rules source, and is completely wrong in this case. Bloodrager bloodlines are not valid choices for EH, only sorcerer bloodlines, and the only restriction is it cannot be one you already have.

I don't believe I was clear enough in my post. I wasn't saying HL WAS a source. I was just pointing out to HL users, which I believe is a fair amount of people, how the software interprets the relationship with the BL/sorcerer bloodlines and eldritch heritage.

[Calth]

Moto Muck wrote:

I'm not completely sure about this but haste does not add extra natural attacks (only unless they are unarmed)- so no extra bite

Haste adds either a manufactured attack or a natural attack.

kestral287 wrote:

An Abyssal Bloodrager does not have, in any way, a Sorcerer Bloodline. As you yourself pointed out while discussing the Draconic Bloodrager bloodline in reference to Dragon Disciple, the two are entirely unrelated, save that the bloodlines need to match if you take levels of Sorcerer later. An item that's related to the two isn't really relevant to a feat that only ever mentions Sorcerer bloodlines.

Really, there is no RAW support for claiming both cannot be taken. Eldritch Heritage is explicitly referring to a Sorcerer bloodline. A Bloodrager is not a Sorcerer. It does not get Sorcerer bloodlines. Hence, Abyssal McRager does not have an Abyssal Sorcerer bloodline... and can freely take the Abyssal bloodline via Eldritch Heritage.

Whether or not it fits RAI is a different question... but explicitly not the question at hand.

Here is the EH text, with emphasis added:

Eldritch Heritage

You are descended from a long line of sorcerers, and some portion of their power flows in your veins.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with the class skill of bloodline selected for this feat (see below), character level 3rd.

Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.

RAW, the restriction does not refer to sorcerer or bloodrager, just the type. Again, partly due to sorcerer being the only option at the point the feat was written. However, I also feel this is RAI as well.

[Thomas Long 175]

Indeed Haste adds an extra attack on a full attack, regardless of what kind of attack you're making

[Vritra]

Overall, I feel just going straight 20 will work. If we get a FAQ saying that Dragon Disciple advances Bloodrager Bloodlines, then that would be a dip I'd take in a heartbeat.

Also, your capstone allows you to get Haste on you when you enter Bloodrage, which is glorious.

I actually went through this whole massive strength thing a little while ago, and I managed to get strength up to 72. Albeit, it requires a bit of evulz, but it is as follows:

Crossblooded Rager Abyssal+Draconic 16/Ragechemist Alchemist 2/Dragon Disciple 2

Base 18
Racial +2
Level +5
Inherent +6 (EH: Orc)
Alchemical +6
Enhancement +6
Morale +13 (Abyssal Bloodline 16, augmented by a +4 Furious Courageous weapon. It'd have to be lowered, probably going for a +3 Furious Courageous AoMF instead, lowering the bonus by 1)
Profane +2/+4 (This is dependent on either a Succubuss or a Lilitu giving you a Profane Gift, or you can take Demonic Obedience (Angazhan)
Size +6 (If it turns out that you wouldn't need Draconic, you can grab the Elemental Bloodline instead for a +8)
Untyped +2 (Dragon Disciple)

For a nonevil character, this can reach 64 Strength, though if you're going the natural attacks route you'd be better off reaching 62, as an AoMF can't be an effective +6 weapon and keep Courageous. You can also drop one Alchemist level and Ragechemist if you feel it's too much of a risk, lowering it down to 60 Strength.

EDIT: Actually, Elemental is almost strictly worse for normal adventures, as the Elemental Body IV is only 1/day.

[Thomas Long 175]

If you can swing orc race, then I suggest going with the elemental bloodline and it'll kick you with the profane all the way up to 70.

[Jumbei Nestus]

The answer to your question is the last paragraph of the Bloodline class feature of the bloodrager : it specifically states that if a bloodrager multiclasses to another class that has the bloodline feature , he must choose the one with the same .

So the thought sequence is if you are an abyssal bloodrager, if you would multiclass to a sorcerer you would be obligated to get the abyssal bloodline therefore you are in theory , effectively , already abyssal sorcerer ... therefore you cannot get the EH RAW ... imho though i would allow it because it is not an effective multiclass , you just spend your feats ... RAW as it is mentioned you could get orc bloodline which is also better suited for a bloodrager ( even the last power is better than abyssal , making you a giant on call )

[Rysky]

Sorry Dood, but the thread is over 2 years old.