I agree, I don't think this feat should be used with weapons. Not sure I ever said that, thought I did do my best to point out absurd things with this feat.
The point with the above long quoted post, is if we use flavor text to dictate rules, then the feat is only useful to characters that exclusively uses punches.
So if your hands are tied, no Pummeling Style. If your hands are full, no Pummeling Style, if you can't use your hands for some reason, no Pummeling Style.
That is stupid and wrong.
Flavor Text does not dictate rules, never has. As it stands, the RAW of this feat is that it can be used with any weapon. I'm absolutely certain it will receive a FAQ to clarify it can only be used with unarmed strikes.
....'stupid and wrong'?.....that is how everyone else is. The fighter can't swing his greatsword if his arms are broken. The wizard can't cast somatic components after the barbarian cut his arms off with his big ax. The rogue can't pick locks after the Don's goons get through with the pliers and his fingers. When PC's get captured, they are meant to struggle to get out before they can murder everything. Monks are typically a bit more resistant to all that, but the way you are going, every villain is going to have to Hannibal Lector you before they James Bond you.
What are you even doing with your arms that is so important? For the purposes of this feat, you would need both hands occupied. There are very few things I can think a monk/brawler/unarmed fighter/etc could even do on a regular basis with their hands during a fight, and few of those actions leave room for a full attack while you are unable to just put it back into the haversack/drop it.
The only relevant thing I can think of is grabbing a spear and doing reach. And I think you are powerful enough already without bringing in AoO mastery into the mix.
EDIT- Ok, I can think of one other thing. But sorry if those dozen goblins babies that you are protecting from an army of Hellknights are so inconvenient to you.
I had a GM who used the flavor text for feats for how they worked. It was REALLY annoying at times. He finally got into PFS and stopped doing that though.
I agree, I don't think this feat should be used with weapons. Not sure I ever said that, thought I did do my best to point out absurd things with this feat.
The point with the above long quoted post, is if we use flavor text to dictate rules, then the feat is only useful to characters that exclusively uses punches.
So if your hands are tied, no Pummeling Style. If your hands are full, no Pummeling Style, if you can't use your hands for some reason, no Pummeling Style.
That is stupid and wrong.
Flavor Text does not dictate rules, never has. As it stands, the RAW of this feat is that it can be used with any weapon. I'm absolutely certain it will receive a FAQ to clarify it can only be used with unarmed strikes.
....'stupid and wrong'?.....that is how everyone else is. The fighter can't swing his greatsword if his arms are broken. The wizard can't cast somatic components after the barbarian cut his arms off with his big ax. The rogue can't pick locks after the Don's goons get through with the pliers and his fingers. When PC's get captured, they are meant to struggle to get out before they can murder everything.
What are you even doing with your arms that is so important? For the purposes of this feat, you would need both hands occupied. There are very few things I can think a monk/brawler/unarmed fighter/etc could even do on a regular basis with their hands during a fight, and few of those actions leave room for a full attack while you are unable to just put it back into the haversack/drop it.
The only relevant thing I can think of is grabbing a spear and doing reach. And I think you are powerful enough already without bringing in AoO mastery into the mix.
EDIT- Ok, I can think of one other thing. But sorry if those dozen goblins babies that you are protecting from an army of Hellknights are so inconvenient to you.
Well, in real martial arts, one of the big things hands are used for, is defense.
Hands are much easier to control the movement of, so it's much easier to use the hands to deflect, catch or otherwise stop blows from connecting.
Hands can be used to strike, but it's more often you'll see the palm, or an elbow, or a kneee, or just a kick, used to strike someone, because they deliver a more potent blow.
As for what you can do with your hands in combat in the game? Well, I use mine for defense on my Monk.
I have a Rod of Balance in once hand, which gives me +2 to AC when I fight Defensively, and I use Crane Style, which requires a hand free. My characters signature move is the Komet Kick, in which I leap really high in the air, and use Elemental Fist (augmented by being a Monk of the Four Winds) to add falling damage and cold damage to a single powerful kick. Like this.
But otherwise, my Monk mostly does kicking, or grappling in combat.
So Pummeling Style, by your interpretation, is completely useless for me because I never punch anyone. Yeah... No.
Flavor Text doesn't make the rules.
Yeaaaah... the way that's written, it works with anything, simply because the rules text mentions nothing about attacking only with Unarmed Strikes. Even pointing out the IUS feat pre-req doesn't help, as we've seen plenty instances where the pre-req is just a feat tax that doesn't get buffed by the end feat.
I'd be totally OK with this if it weren't for the "If one attack crits, all of them crit" cheese. That part needs to go.
I just realized an insane argument to the insane argument here- even if you can technically use any weapon, you can't use a 2 handed weapon of a weapon in 2 hands for this.
The part that you have been dismissing, the 'one devastating punch', is the way that all of this pooled damage is delivered. We have discussed how this means that a hand must be free.
Now, with the source of the pooled damage, I am sure that we can all agree that you must at least be wielding the weapon in order to do that, right? We aren't allowing people to punch with the force of several dozen pistol bullets from guns that stay firmly in their pockets, right? But you need at least one hand free. That means that 2 handed weapons can't be used, nor can one-handed weapons be used in 1 hand.
Ergo, this feat can only work with light and 1 handed weapons (at least before the vestigial arm crowd starts chiming in).
Oh, and Tels, while all that real world expertise is nice and all..... you are ignoring the fact that real world martial arts do not really have styles where you pool 7 attacks into 1 punch. We are very deeply into the world of anime-no-jutsu, so logic has little sway here. This is all about style (and arguably, the designers choice of style dictates the material; not that this idea is going to be accepted).
Also, you cans till punch with the hand that you need free for crane wing (are you a MoMS? Because remember, Pummel style is a style feat... unless brawler has something similar; I don't own ACG, so I can't say). You do not need to hold 'unarmed strikes' in your hand in order to attack with them. While you can argue about using it for defense and not having room for offense.....this is a turned based game system.
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I'd say that it works with any close weapon myself, because frankly, a good amount of them are similar to punching anyhow, and limiting it to one type of unarmed strike seems a little strange and unprecedented. I mean, why can't you do a super-punch with the neat little punching glove[cestus] you are wearing? Why can't you do a super kick?
That said, I'd be fine if it was restricted to unarmed strikes flavored as punches[and in PFS will treat it that way], because even then its still a great feat for Brawlers, Monks, Unarmed or Brawler Fighters, Iroran Paladins, or pretty much any of the "Knockout" builds. Definitely a regular use for martial maneuvers next level on my PFS brawler.
I just realized an insane argument to the insane argument here- even if you can technically use any weapon, you can't use a 2 handed weapon of a weapon in 2 hands for this.
The part that you have been dismissing, the 'one devastating punch', is the way that all of this pooled damage is delivered. We have discussed how this means that a hand must be free.
Now, with the source of the pooled damage, I am sure that we can all agree that you must at least be wielding the weapon in order to do that, right? We aren't allowing people to punch with the force of several dozen pistol bullets from guns that stay firmly in their pockets, right? But you need at least one hand free. That means that 2 handed weapons can't be used, nor can one-handed weapons be used in 1 hand.
Ergo, this feat can only work with light and 1 handed weapons (at least before the vestigial arm crowd starts chiming in).
Oh, and Tels, while all that real world expertise is nice and all..... you are ignoring the fact that real world martial arts do not really have styles where you pool 7 attacks into 1 punch. We are very deeply into the world of anime-no-jutsu, so logic has little sway here. This is all about style (and arguably, the designers choice of style dictates the material; not that this idea is going to be accepted).
Also, you cans till punch with the hand that you need free for crane wing (are you a MoMS? Because remember, Pummel style is a style feat... unless brawler has something similar; I don't own ACG, so I can't say). You do not need to hold 'unarmed strikes' in your hand in order to attack with them. While you can argue about using it for defense and not having room for offense.....this is a turned based game system.
Read Tiger Claws. You can make a single unarmed attack with 2 hands. Since unarmed attacks can be punches, that means 2 handed punches exist...
Read Tiger Claws. You can make a single unarmed attack with 2 hands. Since unarmed attacks can be punches, that means 2 handed punches exist...I just realized an insane argument to the insane argument here- even if you can technically use any weapon, you can't use a 2 handed weapon of a weapon in 2 hands for this.
The part that you have been dismissing, the 'one devastating punch', is the way that all of this pooled damage is delivered. We have discussed how this means that a hand must be free.
Now, with the source of the pooled damage, I am sure that we can all agree that you must at least be wielding the weapon in order to do that, right? We aren't allowing people to punch with the force of several dozen pistol bullets from guns that stay firmly in their pockets, right? But you need at least one hand free. That means that 2 handed weapons can't be used, nor can one-handed weapons be used in 1 hand.
Ergo, this feat can only work with light and 1 handed weapons (at least before the vestigial arm crowd starts chiming in).
Oh, and Tels, while all that real world expertise is nice and all..... you are ignoring the fact that real world martial arts do not really have styles where you pool 7 attacks into 1 punch. We are very deeply into the world of anime-no-jutsu, so logic has little sway here. This is all about style (and arguably, the designers choice of style dictates the material; not that this idea is going to be accepted).
Also, you cans till punch with the hand that you need free for crane wing (are you a MoMS? Because remember, Pummel style is a style feat... unless brawler has something similar; I don't own ACG, so I can't say). You do not need to hold 'unarmed strikes' in your hand in order to attack with them. While you can argue about using it for defense and not having room for offense.....this is a turned based game system.
Doesn't make too much sense. They're still 2 fists. It's not like you can combine your fists into one big fist, you're just consolidating the 2 fists into a single attack, the same way Manyshot consolidates 2 arrows into a single attack roll. It's still 2 arrows.
I find the same concept applies here to Pummel Style.
I find nothing to suggest a weapon, or what handedness that weapon has to be from the rules text of the pummeling feat. I'm trying to figure out why he'd say "a hand must be free". Tiger Claws, which does something close to the pummeling feat, uses two hands in one unarmed attack so I don't understand how he came to that conclusion.
You'd still count your hit as one attack for the purposes of DR. It would make Pummeling Style effectively a melee Clustered Shots. Definitely worth taking for a TWF build I'd think, but not the tactical nuke it is now.
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You'd still count your hit as one attack for the purposes of DR. It would make Pummeling Style effectively a melee Clustered Shots. Definitely worth taking for a TWF build I'd think, but not the tactical nuke it is now.
That's true, I hadn't thought about that. Still, I am very much against dropping that "all crit" part. That really makes this a very nice feat. I would be very fine with them limiting this to unarmed attacks only, or maybe unarmed strikes and the close group.
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Worth mentioning that this feat chain is stupid good for a MoMS dip... My Brawler Fighter is thirsty to be pouncing with cesti at level 3.
Not possible without houserules unless I am missing something. Can't dip into fighter or monk if you're a brawler? Nevermind, I see they changed that from the playtest. You now can multiclass into the base classes.
I was actually referring to the Brawler Fighter archetype. I personally like it better than the Brawler class for my punchy stuff, it synergizes better with cesti (which are superior to unarmed strikes flavor wise and mechanically) and gets some sick lock-down abilities (5FS's provoke).
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Thinking about the feat some more, I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to work at all with two weapon fighting. It is putting all your attack potential into one punch. If you are using flurry of blows or brawlers flurry, you can use your "off hand" attacks with your main hand. If you make a normal full attack, you make all your attacks using you main hand. If you use twf, you are using your main hand and your off hand.
The feat just doesn't make any sense if you are using twf, especially if you have different crit values involved.
edited to correct the terrible autocorrect on my iPad.
You'd still count your hit as one attack for the purposes of DR. It would make Pummeling Style effectively a melee Clustered Shots. Definitely worth taking for a TWF build I'd think, but not the tactical nuke it is now.That's true, I hadn't thought about that. Still, I am very much against dropping that "all crit" part. That really makes this a very nice feat. I would be very fine with them limiting this to unarmed attacks only, or maybe unarmed strikes and the close group.
It stay...relatively..sane with unarmed strikes as long as you don't take improved critical since it comes out to about a 30% chance to crit with 7 attacks.
And Imbicatus, it makes some degree of sense...to those overly familiar with the unarmed strike FAQs...
First, it tells you to roll your attacks and damage 'as normal', and it goes to certain lengths to include regular full attacks, so it is not unusual for it to allow TWF.
Now, for the unarmed related stuff. The thing is that unarmed strikes count as 1 weapon for the purposes of spells, since they don't want you to have to cast magic fang on your hands, feet, elbows, and head; it is left rather ambiguous most of the time. At the same time it can count as two weapons for TWF (yeah, they have a faq specifically for that, and it is a 1 word reply of 'yes')
Now, is it silly for any weapon that isn't unarmed strikes? Yes, Ibicatus, it absolutely is. But hey, I already argued that the attack has to be delivered via a punch by RAW, so having you greatsword damage come through that is silly already.
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Raw lets you "punch" with any weapon but of course this makes no sense, you can go all rules lawyer but im pretty sure thats not the intention of the rule.
-My take is that it should go along close weapons, considering you can also "punch" with them.
-My other take is that it should only be "as part of a flurry of blows" and delete the full attack option
Going by all weapons would be very unbalanced. I can see all melee classes getting this feat just for insane crits, bypassing dr and pounce
Also Have anyone tought on what the impact this feat would have on the cavalier? it does look like the return of the supercharger...
You still don't get the x3 damage on a charge, even on a pounce. If it worked with weapons, it would be equally terrifying for RAGELANCEPOUNCE Barbarians as well as CHALLENGELANCECHARGE Cavaliers.
Thinking about the feat some more, I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to work at all with two weapon fighting. It is putting all your attack potential into one punch. If you are using flurry of blows or brawlers flurry, you can use your "off hand" attacks with your main hand. If you make a normal full attack, you make all your attacks using you main hand. If you use twf, you are using your main hand and your off hand.
The feat just doesn't make any sense if you are using twf, especially if you have different crit values involved.
edited to correct the terrible autocorrect on my iPad.
Why does it have a BAB prereq, then? It's entirely possible to qualify for this feat without touching the Monk or Brawler classes at all. If it was only intended to work with Flurry then the prereq should just be "Monk or Brawler level X".
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Why does it have a BAB prereq, then? It's entirely possible to qualify for this feat without touching the Monk or Brawler classes at all. If it was only intended to work with Flurry then the prereq should just be "Monk or Brawler level X".Thinking about the feat some more, I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to work at all with two weapon fighting. It is putting all your attack potential into one punch. If you are using flurry of blows or brawlers flurry, you can use your "off hand" attacks with your main hand. If you make a normal full attack, you make all your attacks using you main hand. If you use twf, you are using your main hand and your off hand.
The feat just doesn't make any sense if you are using twf, especially if you have different crit values involved.
edited to correct the terrible autocorrect on my iPad.
Well, it still works with normal full attacks.
That said, I'm pretty sure that since TWF increases the number of attacks you use in a full attack, and the feat says to roll all attacks made in a full attack, it would work.
Hmm, I'm wondering if all the attacks made by someone using pummeling charge are regarded as being made on a charge? Would they all benefit from Janni Rush for example?
prototype00
I honestly am not sure how this didn't get more clarification in the book. This wouldn't be the first feat to describe any unarmed attack as a punch. I mean, Stunning Fist can be a kick. As far as I know, punishing kick can be a bow attack. But due to the power, it's probably unarmed only.
What makes you guys think you can get extra attacks with Pummeling Style?
The feat. "Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack."
So you can add up all your attacks from either:
a full attack
a flurry of blows
What makes you guys think you can get extra attacks with Pummeling Style?The feat. "Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack."
So you can add up all your attacks from either:
a full attack
a flurry of blows
Yes, but I often read about people using two-weapon fighting, brawler's flurry, haste, and other things that I'm not so certain work at all (since Pummeling Style is its own unique full round action).
Yes, but I often read about people using two-weapon fighting, brawler's flurry, haste, and other things that I'm not so certain work at all (since Pummeling Style is its own unique full round action).What makes you guys think you can get extra attacks with Pummeling Style?The feat. "Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack."
So you can add up all your attacks from either:
a full attack
a flurry of blows
It seems to me you add EVERYTHING you can because it says so. It's it's own action but that doesn't matter since it says to "Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack."
You count it up as if you where making your "full attack or a flurry of blows". It's that simple. Anything that figures in to your "full attack or a flurry of blows" figures into the number of rolls you get with the feat.
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I find the attitude people take while debating this feat troubling. It's fine to have an opinion, it's not fine to ridicule others or to call people derogatory names for simply having a different interpretation of a feat. Please reread and consider what you post before hitting the Submit button.
For what it's worth I find the idea that the word "punch" means you can use this style with a headbutt, kick or elbow strike, but not with a punching dagger, knuckle axe, or scizore puzzling. I think that Pummeling Style as it stands is ambiguous (especially since the feat blurb and the feat itself disagrees) and could use a FAQ. Hopefully we'll get one sooner rather than later.
And while we're talking about a possible FAQ, it should be noted that the ACG has feat options with minimal prerequisites that open up Pounce to both animal companions and summoned monsters as early as level 1. I like to think that giving a similar ability to martial characters at the cost of three feats at level 12 isn't entirely out of line.
While I do think the critical strike mechanics should be clarified or limited, I don't think restricting the style to only unarmed strikes is the best solution.