[ACG] Does Pummeling Style Work With All Weapons?


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Silver Crusade

163 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 8 people marked this as a favorite.

Ahoy, fellow Pathfinders!

Now that the Advanced Class Guide has been officially released, we can get the more in-depth discussion threads going on specific issues. One of the good questions that's been getting play in the advance threads has to do with the Pummeling Style feat (p. 154). I thought we could move that discussion here.

Question: Does Pummeling Style work with all weapons?

Here's the summary from the table:

ACG p. 140 wrote:
Pool all unarmed strikes into a single powerful blow

And here's the full feat text:

ACG p. 154 wrote:

Pummeling Style (Combat, Style)

You collect all your power into a single vicious and debilitating punch.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry† class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit.

Have at it!

:-)


As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch.

I think there's only a few weapons that are considered punching.

Scarab Sages

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FAQ'd Based on the table summary and flavor text, it seems clear that it should be unarmed only RAI. However, the text isn't specific in limiting it RAW.

Silver Crusade

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My bet: it'll be resolved to work with unarmed strikes, monk weapons, or close weapons (basically, anything a standard monk or brawler could flurry with).

But we'll see!

Silver Crusade

Yikes, this makes me think of a sohei getting martial weapon proficiency and choosing either a X4 crit weapon or an 18-20 crit range weapon and then using this style and doing an absolutely sick amount of damage.


I can see every martial class burning a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike just so they can take this and Pummeling Charge. RAI seems to clearly limit this to Unarmed Strikes, so I expect it to be errata'ed very soon.

Sovereign Court

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If this gets out of hand (pun intended) with the Sohei, that could be painful.

But I think it's a case of an author thinking that conversational English was clear enough in meaning, rather than filling a book with boring-to-read precise legalese.

Scarab Sages

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Forget Soheis, think of the Cavilers who will use it on a mounted lance charge.

Let's not think about what Monk/Druid could do with this, but limiting it to unarmed only won't stop that..


Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch ..........

i'm not sure what there is to argue about.

Silver Crusade

Oh! And since I forgot to put it in the original post ... keep in mind the companion feat, Pummeling Charge as a reason this will be a popular option.

Here's the summary of Pummeling Charge:

ACG p. 140 wrote:
Pummel after a charge

And here's the full feat text:

ACG p. 154 wrote:

Pummeling Charge (Combat)

Your charge ends with a mighty haymaker.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Pummeling Style†; base attack bonus +12, brawler† level 8th, or monk level 8th.

Benefit: When using Pummeling Style, you can charge and make a Pummeling Style attack at the end of your charge as part of the charge action.

Normal: Making a Pummeling Style attack is a full-round action.


It's Pounce in handy punch form.

Silver Crusade

ikarinokami wrote:

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch ..........

i'm not sure what there is to argue about.

The question gets started when you notice that the rules text of the Pummeling Style feat makes no mention on what sort of weapon you must use for the attacks.

Once you're looking at Pummeling Charge, you can see why a *lot* of melee-focused characters would be very interested in how the question is resolved. Given the lack of restriction in the rules text, I expect that this will remain a hot topic and subject of table variation until we get an official FAQ. Since I play and GM a lot of PFS, I'd really love to have a settled answer on what's sure to be a pretty popular option, to make everything run more smoothly.

And, since you and others seem immediately skeptical, consider one reason why the feat may have been intended to allow (at least some) weapons: monks and brawlers use weapons! Some of the main brawler class features center around her ability to use close weapons as part of a brawler's flurry, and it would be odd if one of the three style chains designed for the class did not allow her to use her close weapons with it.

Once you've got that foot in the door, combined with the "rules text" of the feat, you can see how the argument would go.

Even if you don't think it's a very plausible argument, I hope you can see why it would help to have the question definitively settled, at least for those of us involved in organized play.

:-)

Scarab Sages

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Flagged for FAQ

Hopefully it gets answered before people have invested too deeply into either side of the argument.

Sovereign Court

I have also FAQ'd this.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that it is probably intended to be used with unarmed strikes.

If that's the case, my weapon-using Barbarian/Monk in PFS may or may not take these feats. However, if it can be used with at least Monk weapons, then there's a strong possibility I will take them.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Yikes, this makes me think of a sohei getting martial weapon proficiency and choosing either a X4 crit weapon or an 18-20 crit range weapon and then using this style and doing an absolutely sick amount of damage.

The way I'm reading that skill, wouldn't it only give the character one chance to confirm regardless of the number of critical threats made? A̶l̶s̶o̶,̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶t̶t̶a̶c̶k̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶u̶l̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶r̶i̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶f̶a̶i̶l̶u̶r̶e̶,̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶r̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶h̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶r̶i̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶f̶a̶i̶l̶u̶r̶e̶? Edit: Imbicatus.

RAW, it's pretty clear that only unarmed strike works. And with Sohei existing, it probably won't have monk weapons added to that. However, what about natural attacks added to FoB through Feral Combat Training? It's never defined as a Monk weapon, though it effectively works like one.

Scarab Sages

Saint_Yin wrote:


The way I'm reading that skill, wouldn't it only give the character one chance to confirm regardless of the number of critical threats made? Also, if any of the attacks result in a critical failure, is the action aborted or do they get whatever damage they hit with up to the critical failure?

Yes, you only get one confirm roll, but it's at your highest BAB. This is actually better than having to confirm multiple times.

Also, there is no such things as a critical failure in pathfinder. If you roll a one, it's an automatic miss on that attack, but there is no additional effect. If you were to roll a one on one the attacks in pummeling styles one punch, then that attacks damage would not apply as with any miss, but it won't effect anything else.

Silver Crusade

Entilzha wrote:

I have also FAQ'd this.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that it is probably intended to be used with unarmed strikes.

If that's the case, my weapon-using Barbarian/Monk in PFS may or may not take these feats. However, if it can be used with at least Monk weapons, then there's a strong possibility I will take them.

Yes, but if it works with all monk weapons, that opens up the sohei can of worms that allows them to make pretty much any weapon a monk weapon. Hello mounted sohei spirited pummeling charge 1200 damage in a single round at level 12 insanity.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm expecting it to be a sweep change to unarmed only. Sad news for Brawlers and some Monks, but probably the only way to make these feats actually clear.


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Joe M. wrote:
ikarinokami wrote:

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch ..........

i'm not sure what there is to argue about.

The question gets started when you notice that the rules text of the Pummeling Style feat makes no mention on what sort of weapon you must use for the attacks.

Once you're looking at Pummeling Charge, you can see why a *lot* of melee-focused characters would be very interested in how the question is resolved. Given the lack of restriction in the rules text, I expect that this will remain a hot topic and subject of table variation until we get an official FAQ. Since I play and GM a lot of PFS, I'd really love to have a settled answer on what's sure to be a pretty popular option, to make everything run more smoothly.

And, since you and others seem immediately skeptical, consider one reason why the feat may have been intended to allow (at least some) weapons: monks and brawlers use weapons! Some of the main brawler class features center around her ability to use close weapons as part of a brawler's flurry, and it would be odd if one of the three style chains designed for the class did not allow her to use her close weapons with it.

Once you've got that foot in the door, combined with the "rules text" of the feat, you can see how the argument would go.

Even if you don't think it's a very plausible argument, I hope you can see why it would help to have the question definitively settled, at least for those of us involved in organized play.

:-)

honestly i don't see how it's plausible. you don't need to say what the attack is, because you already defined it as a punch, that's standard rule of english grammer. if you want to argue that a punching dagger should be included, i could see that, but sword, hammer etc, no i dont' see it, if we are assuming the standard rules of english grammer.

Scarab Sages

If they allow it with non-unarmed strikes, it should only apply to weapons in the close weapon group only. Not any weapon that you can flurry with.

The close group allows brawlers to use the feat, and there is enough crossover between the close group and the monk group to allow weapon adepts to benefit from the style while blocking some of more problematic weapons in the monk group like the sansetsukon.

Silver Crusade

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ikarinokami wrote:
honestly i don't see how it's plausible. you don't need to say what the attack is, because you already defined it as a punch, that's standard rule of english grammer. if you want to argue that a punching dagger should be included, i could see that, but sword, hammer etc, no i dont' see it, if we are assuming the standard rules of english grammer.

Not all punches are unarmed strikes, and not all unarmed strikes are punches.

Grand Lodge

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"Punch" is being used metaphorically. You're combining alcohol and fruit juice (attacks) into a potent beverage (the punch). So it's all weapon attacks.

Silver Crusade

ikarinokami wrote:
honestly i don't see how it's plausible. you don't need to say what the attack is, because you already defined it as a punch, that's standard rule of english grammer. if you want to argue that a punching dagger should be included, i could see that, but sword, hammer etc, no i dont' see it, if we are assuming the standard rules of english grammer.

<this>:

Ipslore the Red wrote:
Let's say I decide to go crit-fishing TWF with a kukri and a pick, and use Pummeling Style. I'm sure people are familiar with the crit benefits of the feat- and if not, check out the ACG kneejerk thread- but what happens if I threaten and confirm a critical hit with my light pick? Do I multiply the entire damage by 4?

Plus this:

Joe M. wrote:

Even if you don't think it's a very plausible argument, I hope you can see why it would help to have the question definitively settled, at least for those of us involved in organized play.

:-)

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.

At the very least, it should work with the weapons that modify unamed strikes: Cestus, Spiked Gauntlets, Brass Knuckles, and Emei Piercers.


I gotta get this book man...

Ok, so, does Pummeling Charge work with the Greater Weapon of the Chosen feat that was discussed in the Warpriest thread? It was mentioned there that GWOTC works on a charge so i am curious now. would that be best of two rolls for the first hit or all hits in the attack?

Scarab Sages

Greater Weapon of the chosen only works when you make a single attack with the attack action. Pummeling style is a full round action, or part of a charge action with Pummeling Charge. They can't be used together.


Huh, i could have sworn they said it worked with a charge... thanks for the clarification though!

Slightly tangent to Pummeling Style, does a Sacred Fist count as a Monk for picking up feats? Looking at early access to pounce with Crusader's Flurry, probably with a dip in Daring Champion, a rapier and dex to damage.


So... Kukri/Lance Pummeling Charge with Butterfly Sting and Spirited Charge. Kukri threatens, give it to the Lance, whole Pummeling Charge is now a x6 damage hit?


Torbyne wrote:

Huh, i could have sworn they said it worked with a charge... thanks for the clarification though!

Slightly tangent to Pummeling Style, does a Sacred Fist count as a Monk for picking up feats? Looking at early access to pounce with Crusader's Flurry, probably with a dip in Daring Champion, a rapier and dex to damage.

GWotC does work on a charge, but a Pummeling Charge lets you make a full attack or a flurry. GWotC only works if you make a single attack and since Pummeling Charge lets you make multiple attacks, the two are not compatible.


But how are you threatening with a kukri and a lance at the same time?

Scarab Sages

Torbyne wrote:

Huh, i could have sworn they said it worked with a charge... thanks for the clarification though!

Slightly tangent to Pummeling Style, does a Sacred Fist count as a Monk for picking up feats? Looking at early access to pounce with Crusader's Flurry, probably with a dip in Daring Champion, a rapier and dex to damage.

It works with Vital Strike. It doesn't work with a charge or spring attack, or anything else that isn't an attack action.

As for Sacred Fist,It does get some bonus style feats. For the purpose of those style feats only, warpriest levels count as monk levels. The first bonus feat is at level six, and the second is at level 12.

Scarab Sages

Tels wrote:
Torbyne wrote:

Huh, i could have sworn they said it worked with a charge... thanks for the clarification though!

Slightly tangent to Pummeling Style, does a Sacred Fist count as a Monk for picking up feats? Looking at early access to pounce with Crusader's Flurry, probably with a dip in Daring Champion, a rapier and dex to damage.

GWotC does work on a charge, but a Pummeling Charge lets you make a full attack or a flurry. GWotC only works if you make a single attack and since Pummeling Charge lets you make multiple attacks, the two are not compatible.

Per the Vital Strike FAQ language, it doesn't work on a charge

Quote:


Greater Weapon of the Chosen (Combat)
Your deity guides your hand when you fight with her
favored weapon.

Prerequisites: Improved Weapon of the Chosen†,
Weapon Focus with deity’s favored weapon, Weapon of
the Chosen†, worship and receive spells from a deity.

Benefit: When you use your deity’s favored weapon to
attempt a single attack with the attack action, you roll two
dice for your attack roll and take the higher result. You do
not need to use your Weapon of the Chosen feat to gain
this feat’s benefit.


Torbyne wrote:
But how are you threatening with a kukri and a lance at the same time?

Well, I didn't mean on one person, but I guess it could be possible if your GM allowed you to use a Kukri on a charge since a Lance is wielded 1-handed (but still gets 2-handed str and power attack) while charging. This only works because you count as your own ally, so you can give yourself your kukri crit and transfer it to the Lance.

I was more thinking of an ally with kukris and butterfly sting setting up another ally with a lance and pummeling charge.

(BTW, since a lance is used to punch through the armor of enemies, it totally counts for Pummeling Charge)


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Tels wrote:
(BTW, since a lance is used to punch through the armor of enemies, it totally counts for Pummeling Charge)

I like where this is going. Because a cup can can be filled with punch, it totally counts for Pummeling Charge.


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Saint_Yin wrote:
Tels wrote:
(BTW, since a lance is used to punch through the armor of enemies, it totally counts for Pummeling Charge)
I like where this is going. Because a cup can can be filled with punch, it totally counts for Pummeling Charge.

So *thats* how Riddick did it!

(Glad someone got the joke)


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Just had a thought... What if the whole feat chain has a massive typo and it's actually supposed to be Pommeling Style?


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Tels wrote:
Just had a thought... What if the whole feat chain has a massive typo and it's actually supposed to be Pommeling Style?

I knew the editing in this book was incredibly bad but it got into the flavor text too? Ouch.

Scarab Sages

Tels wrote:
Just had a thought... What if the whole feat chain has a massive typo and it's actually supposed to be Pommeling Style?

Perhaps it's Pumicing Style, and can only be used while giving a mani/pedi.


Imbicatus wrote:
At the very least, it should work with the weapons that modify unamed strikes: Cestus, Spiked Gauntlets, Brass Knuckles, and Emei Piercers.

This is what I am hoping for. Cestus are really really cool, and honestly, my brawler was gonna use one.

Silver Crusade

Adam B. 135 wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
At the very least, it should work with the weapons that modify unamed strikes: Cestus, Spiked Gauntlets, Brass Knuckles, and Emei Piercers.
This is what I am hoping for. Cestus are really really cool, and honestly, my brawler was gonna use one.

Well, that might have to wait for an FAQ blog that finally sorts out the gauntlet/brass knuckle/cestus mess.

:-)


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Tels wrote:
Just had a thought... What if the whole feat chain has a massive typo and it's actually supposed to be Pommeling Style?

Etymologically, speaking to pummel someone meant to use the pommel of your weapon to bludgeon them. Therefore, It works!

Regards,
DRS


The way I honestly read it over was that it would work. The first part seems like fluff to me and the actual mechanics actually say, "with a full attack or a flurry of blows".

That's obviously not definitive and I could be wrong, but that's how I'm interpreting it for my home games until I hear otherwise.


I haven't found anything in the rules that says the text description of an ability isn't part of the rules for that ability. To me, the word punch means fists and those few weapons that are used to enhance fists, like cestus and spiked gauntlet.

Silver Crusade

JoeJ wrote:

I haven't found anything in the rules that says the text description of an ability isn't part of the rules for that ability. To me, the word punch means fists and those few weapons that are used to enhance fists, like cestus and spiked gauntlet.

<This> thread may be relevant for some of the difficulties with that sort of weapon.


It'd be fine if they restricted it to close weapons.

Worth mentioning that this feat chain is stupid good for a MoMS dip... My Brawler Fighter is thirsty to be pouncing with cesti at level 3.


Arachnofiend wrote:

It'd be fine if they restricted it to close weapons.

Worth mentioning that this feat chain is stupid good for a MoMS dip... My Brawler Fighter is thirsty to be pouncing with cesti at level 3.

Even if it's just unarmed strikes, a MoMS dip for Dragon Style and Pummeling Style will be a stupid good combo.

The Exchange

Side question. Do the prerequisites mean that BAB AND monk level or is it that BAB OR monk level


Well yeah, but cesti are cooler.

Silver Crusade

Andrew R wrote:
Side question. Do the prerequisites mean that BAB AND monk level or is it that BAB OR monk level

OR. The semicolon is key. Just need one of the last three terms.


Am I the only person picturing Barbarians running around Superman Punching things to death in one hit?

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