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Hey everyone. I recently created a Tetori monk, and consequentially, I've been going over a lot of the grappling rules. Here are a few things that I'm hoping to clear up. For clarity, I'm going to use the term "primary grappler" to refer to the creature controlling the grapple, and "secondary grappler" to refer to the other creature.
1)At the beginning of a round in which the primary grappler has the secondary grappler pinned, does the primary grappler need to perform a grapple check to maintain the pin?
Here is the relevant text:
Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Pin
You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
2) If the secondary grappler attempts to break or reverse the grapple, does that count as an attempt by the secondary grappler to grapple the primary grappler? This seems like a bizarre question, but there are some implications to it. If it is a grapple attempt, the secondary grappler can apply bonuses for checks to grapple a foe (as seen in the trait "Serpentine Squeeze"). Additionally, the primary grappler would get bonuses that applied whenever a creature tries to grapple him (Serpentine Squeeze, Counter-Grapple).
If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can).
3)This is sort of the offense version of #2. Does a check to maintain the hold (done by the primary grappler) count as a combat maneuver check to grapple a foe? Again, on the surface this seems like a weird question, but many things give a bonus grapple checks, not hold maintenance checks. Something like "Snapping Turtle Clutch" can give a creature an extra grapple attempt, which may or may not be used for moving, pinning, etc. based on this. Relevant text is in #1
4) Is it possible to have one primary grappler grappling two secondary grapplers? I don't see any restrictions on this. As far as I can tell, it can be done, but the primary grappler would need to succeed on two hold maintenance checks (one for each secondary grappler) to maintain both grapples (which actually can be done with greater grapple).
5) Did the issues of the Dan Bong weapon ever get cleared up or is it still essentially -2 for grapple attempts with the lack of two free hands penalty factored in?
1) yes, you are still in a grapple with the creature.
2) I would lean towards no it's not a grapple attempt.
3) I think yes, with a +5 because you're already in position for it.
4) If they are able to maintain the grapple with a limb and not be grappled themselves. I know it's possible sometimes but it leads to a -20 to something.
5) no idea.
1) yes, you are still in a grapple with the creature.
2) I would lean towards no it's not a grapple attempt.
3) I think yes, with a +5 because you're already in position for it.
4) If they are able to maintain the grapple with a limb and not be grappled themselves. I know it's possible sometimes but it leads to a -20 to something.
5) no idea.
As far as 1, I now see in tie up: "The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin." That implies that the check would otherwise need to be made, so I agree with you.
Number 2 is kind of a weird one. They clearly call out the attack of opportunity that would normally be made on a grapple attempt. You are making a combat maneuver check that if successful, gives you the choice to become the primary grappler. It almost seems like an attempt to escape the grapple wouldn't be a grapple attempt, but an attempt to reverse it would be. Since its one test followed by the choice between the options, they get blended into one nebulous action.
Comparing the Tetori's "Counter-Grapple" to the Brutal Pugilist's "Savage Grapple", I can't help but wonder if the differences are intentional.
At 4th level, a tetori wrestler may make an attack of opportunity against a creature attempting to grapple him. This ability does not allow the tetori to make an attack of opportunity against a creature with the Greater Grapple feat
At 2nd level, the brutal pugilist takes only half the normal penalties to Dexterity, attack rolls, and combat maneuver checks when she has the grappled condition. She can make an attack of opportunity against creatures trying to grapple her even if they possess the Improved Grapple feat or the grab special attack. If she hits with this attack of opportunity, she gains a +2 circumstance bonus to her CMD against the grapple attempt. She cannot make these attacks of opportunity once a grapple has succeeded.
If #2 is "no" then these two abilities are almost identical. If it's yes than the Tetori ability is quite a bit better. Were they just restricted on word count or is this an intentional difference? I don't really know, but the tetori was released after the BP, so it wasn't as though they felt that it wasn't explained thoroughly enough the first time around.
I think on #4 you're thinking of the "Grab" special attack:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
This doesn't really specifically say anything about multiple secondary grapplers as far as I can tell. If there is a rule somewhere that you can't make a grapple attempt while grappled then you're right, it would open up the opportunity to make a second grapple attempt that wouldn't otherwise be there though.
I think you're not attempting a grapple if you are escaping and decide to reverse the grapple. Reasons are that you're not making a grapple check, it's CMB or escape artist. Reason also is if you succeed with escape artist you can still reverse it. This leads me to think there is no attempt there.
Ah yes, 4 was grab. Now the thing is if you're grappled you can't use two hands, so you'd have the penalties, and you couldn't move to someone. but I guess yes, you could do two adjacent enemy grapples. and maintain them afterwards. Hmm... with rapid maybe you could have three at a time. How interesting.
I think you're not attempting a grapple if you are escaping and decide to reverse the grapple. Reasons are that you're not making a grapple check, it's CMB or escape artist. Reason also is if you succeed with escape artist you can still reverse it. This leads me to think there is no attempt there.
Ah yes, 4 was grab. Now the thing is if you're grappled you can't use two hands, so you'd have the penalties, and you couldn't move to someone. but I guess yes, you could do two adjacent enemy grapples. and maintain them afterwards. Hmm... with rapid maybe you could have three at a time. How interesting.
I only bring it up because Snapping Turtle Clutch lets you do a grapple attempt after someone misses a melee attack. If I'm grappling and a third party tries to hit me, then I may be able to grapple them (albeit at a -6 penalty). Most of the time this would accomplish little, but it might be a handy option.
I think you're be right about #2. Looking closely at the grappled condition:
A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple.
The fact that grapple and escape a grapple are listed as two different combat maneuver checks is pretty telling of the intent. Since I highly doubt they're talking specifically about grappling a third party here, that seems to clear up #3 as well.
Looking through the ACG this morning my attention was quickly drawn to the Grabbing Style. It would appear that #4 is a confirmed yes.
As I continue to delve into the many facets of grappling, more questions have arisen. Looking at the Brutal Pugilist (barbarian archetype):
6)
She also is treated as one size larger than her actual size when determining whether she can grapple or be grappled by another creature.
So I've looked this up, and the whole size restriction thing only appears to the "grab" ability. Is this rule some useless unchecked remnant of 3.5 rules, or is there something I'm missing?
7)Grab is simple enough at first, but as always the devil is in the details:
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
So, the first thing I question is grappling vs holding. If the creature doesn't choose to hold it "conducts the grapple normally", which to me sounds like grab is then out of the picture and the creature moves to a normal grapple that can be changed to pinned/tied up (but I assume most monsters aren't capable of the latter). When the text goes on to explain hold it says "each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold". So my interpretation is that if the creature doesn't hold there is no restriction on what it can do with a grapple check, but a hold can only do damage. Is this correct?
8) If a creature is able to do a grab attack on a creature that is currently grappled, what happens? Assuming someone else is doing the grapple, does it turn into an aid another/group grapple? If the creature itself is grappling, does he get a bonus grapple check?
9)
Multiple Creatures
Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action). Multiple creatures can also assist another creature in breaking free from a grapple, with each creature that assists (using the Aid Another action) granting a +2 bonus on the grappled creature's combat maneuver check.
How does this work? Is the "aid another" attempt done with CMB like a combat maneuver or is it exactly like any other combat aid another using a weapon attack roll? When the second person helps, do they gain the grapple condition as well?
10)Finally, we have the Brutal Grappler feat:
Brutal Grappler (Combat, Teamwork)
Prerequisites: Half-orc or orc.
Benefit: When you and an ally with this feat have grappled the same creature, you may attempt to damage the opponent on your turn (whether you were the one who first initiated the grapple or were assisting your ally in doing so). You and the ally are treated as aiding each other in the grapple (+2 bonus on your grapple combat maneuver) as long as you both decide to maintain the grapple.
Normal: When multiple creatures grapple one target, the creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check to damage a grappled opponent, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists the grapple using the Aid Another action.
This is where the details of #9 start to become important. Starting off, when are two people officially "grappling the same target"? If I start to aid after the grapple was initiated, can I go right into damage with the bonus, or do I need to be assisting for a round to be considered part of the group grapple and move into using the brutal grappler feat? Also, if two people with this feat are grappling, are they then restricted to just damaging the opponent? If not, can either one do the other moves or are they restricted to the primary grappler doing other moves while the assistant can only do damage?
Thanks everyone. Any insight would be helpful.
bump
I realize now that the quote used in #6 must have been through an errata at some point. it now instead reads:
She also is treated as one size larger than her actual size when determining whether she can be grappled using the grab ability or swallowed by another creature.
So on that note #6 is cleared up. Unfortunately, 7,8, and 9 are still mysteries, and nobody seems to have even the slightest idea on #10.
Thanks guys. Any input is helpful. I've been bugging James Jacobs with a few of these and I was able to get a bit of confirmation on some things.
Regarding #9 He said:
Yes. An aid another attempt with a grapple check is a grapple check (aka, a CMB check).
I'm going to assume that it's against AC10 like any other aid another attempt (I hate to verify, I feel like I'm already asking too many esoteric questions). When I get more info I'll copy and paste it here. It would be fantastic to nail down the grapple rules once and for all.
Here's the entirety of what I learned asking James Jacobs:
Iron Giant wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Iron Giant wrote:
I can't find an answer to this anywhere, so maybe you can help.
If a creature is able to do a grab attack on a creature that is currently grappled, what happens? Assuming someone else is doing the grapple, does it turn into an aid another/group grapple? If the creature itself is grappling, does he get a bonus grapple check?
A creature can aid another the grapple with its own check, or they can fight for control, in which case the highest CMB check to establish the grapple wins.
Thank you for your time! That actually clears up quite a few scenarios.
Just to verify the second part of my question, in the strange instance where the controlling grappler hits the grappled creature with a grab attack (not the grapple check for damage, which I assume doesn't get the grab special rule attached to it) he does get to do an extra grapple check for the normal options (pin, move, damage, etc)?
Also, are grapple aid another attempts done with CMB?
Thanks again. I know your time is valuable and I don't want to take it up with silly questions. Unfortunately, no one else knows how to answer them here or in my PFS group.
ASSUMING HE ISN'T WORKING WIHT THE CURRENT GRAPPLER... He's not the one grappling the foe. Even if the foe is already grappled by someone else, he'd need to treat his target as if he were just starting to grapple.Yes. An aid another attempt with a grapple check is a grapple check (aka, a CMB check).
Iron Giant wrote:
There are two creatures involved in the combat, nobody else. One is an 8th level Tetori monk. The other is just some goblin.
The round starts with the monk already grappling the goblin. Because the monk has the "Greater Grapple" feat, he can maintain the grapple as a move action (and succeeds). Now with his standard action left over, he uses an unarmed strike on the goblin and spends a ki point to give the strike the grab ability. He is now using a grab attack on the same creature that he is currently grappling. The attack hits and resolves. Does he get the extra grapple check (to move, pin, damage, etc) or is the grab ability wasted?
This may seem like an unnecessary, esoteric question, but there are a variety of instances (snapping turtle clutch, white haired witch/hold, etc) where things like this can come up during grappling.
Nope. Once you're grappling a foe, the grab ability is a waste of calories to use. You can't use the grapple check granted by grab to sneak in additional pins and the like.
That clears up a lot.
One more tiny little question:
James Jacobs wrote:
Yes. An aid another attempt with a grapple check is a grapple check (aka, a CMB check).
Is this CMB check tested against the opponents CMD like any other grapple check, or against a CMD of 10 (the equivalent of the AC 10 that is normally used on an "Aid Another").
Aid Another checks are always against DC 10.
Hopefully that all makes sense. Copying and pasting doesn't highlight quotes the same way. Here is a link to the discussion being referenced.
So those questions were primarily focused on 8 and 9
Here's my interpretation now of how these work:
8)If a creature is able to do a grab attack on a creature that is currently grappled, what happens? Assuming someone else is doing the grapple, does it turn into an aid another/group grapple?
If the grabbing creature is an ally to the primary grappler, he can use the grab check to assist.
If he is an opponent, he can do an opposed CMB check to gain control of the grapple (and free the secondary grappler I assume). The second scenario is still a bit confusing and AFAIK unrepresented in the rulebook. Luckily, I don't think anyone would do the melee attack necessary to an ally to try to free them with grab.
If the creature itself is grappling, does he get a bonus grapple check?
No, the grab ability is wasted in the circumstance.
9)Is the "aid another" attempt done with CMB like a combat maneuver or is it exactly like any other combat aid another using a weapon attack roll?
Yes, CMB is used against DC 10.
When the second person helps, do they gain the grapple condition as well?
I actually still don't have a solid answer to this. I'm starting to think no though.
That clears up most of my questions. I could dig a bit deeper into the aspects of the "Brutal Grappler" feat, but I don't particularly want to dominate his question thread any more than I already have.
Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but:
Regarding maintaining the grapple against a pinned opponent, remember that the pinned creature loses their dex bonus AND takes a -4 to AC (and therefore to CMD as well,) in addition to the +5 to CMB you get for already having them grappled. So you do have to make a check each turn to maintain the pin, but it should be a really easy check to make.