I am working on a side project that involves several layers in a dungeon, and I want a boss of one story arc to be a small cabal of necromancers. Said necromancers would have the maximum amount of bloody burning skeletons under their control for their level.
4x Necromancers (gnome Wizard [effortless trickery for illusions], Ratfolk Witch [Gravewalker], Bloodmarked Wizard, Dhampir Wizard) and each NPC is level level 7 (CR 6).
Now, with how Animate Dead works, this means that each one has 28 (total = 180) CR 1 bloody burning skeletons at their beck and call. These skeletons are controlled by having them behind illusory walls so they do not aggro earlier than they are supposed to.
So the encounter works like this:
The 4 necromancers are discussing their plans with the Kobolds that live above (or lived, by this point the PCs have cleared them out) when the PCs enter the room they are in. The necromancers are on a 20-ft high 10 ft radius plateau in the back of the room. The room itself is a rectangle with 3 entrances. Three portcullises fall, one on each door, via a leaver near the necromancers. The room appears to be 30 ft x 50 ft, but in actuality major parts of that are an illusion that keeps the skeletons in check in the event that one of the necromancers' subordinates needs to give them a message.
When the PCs enter the area the necromancers address them. When they learn that the PCs have massacred their underlings and the kobolds above the necromancers offer to have the PCs join them since they have unintentionally resolved not only one issue they needed to resolve but also averted having to pay their underlings. After the PCs refuse them the gnome pulls the leaver that closes the portcullises, trapping the PCs in the room. He allows the PCs to close the gap before ending the illusion spell and triggering the skeletons to act whose first action is full round running towards the nearest PC if said PC is not within charging distance and there is no one in the way.
Necromancers combined CR is 10, which means the PCs should be level 7 when they fight them for it to be an epic encounter.
However, in searching for a clear answer I find it is mixed. Some say the skeletons are part of the necromancers' CR, while others say their XP should be added to the encounter, which would inflate the CR from 10 to CR 16.
Is there an official answer on this? To compare this, each of these casters could be LE clerics, have the feat that lets them summon creatures with the Lawful and Evil subtypes, and summon devils each round which would probably turn out to be more dangerous minions in the grand scheme of things than a large company of skeletons that more or less will die in 1 hit. By level 7 the PCs Cleric should be able to reliably kill any of the skeletons within range of her channel energy even if they make the save.
Officially no, because it is a resource of the character, however if you create several undead before the PC's show up it might be a good idea to give them ad hoc XP.
Personally speaking for me it would depend on how many and what type of undead I created.
What you can also do is just have the undead present, but not have the gold for the onyx come out of the character wealth. That way the additional undead can count as being their own creatures officially, and not a character resource.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The undead are part of the necromancers CR if he creates the undead during the fight. The necromancer starts the fight with 100% of his powers, uses 20% (example) of his power to create undead and has 80% of his power left for the rest of the fight.
The undead are also part of the necromancers CR if he creates them today without chance to recover his powers. So he starts the fight with 80% of his power (20% are used to created the undead) and an army of undead.
The undead increase the CR if they were created a few days before the fight. The necromancer starts the fight with 100% of his power and an undead army.
Thats how i rule it without RAW support, only common sense.
|
In my opinion, using money to animate dead or planar bind backup, is no different than using that money to obtain hirelings or cohorts. Thus I would increase the CR.
Regardless of it being "part of the necromancer's abilities" - if he did so several days in advance as Eridan noted, he would actually be exceeding his daily resources.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With that logic then the any cleric PC or necromancer PC has a higher cr under those conditions and skews the relative difficulty.
To be fair, yes, they probably do, and a horde of previously created minions SHOULD be factored into the party's ECL.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the necromancers wealth is part of his cr and he has used that wealth to make his army, then I would consider the cr the same. If the undead were not detracting from his wealth and that wealth instead went toward equipment he was using against the PC's I would count the undead as an additional cr adjustment.
If the necromancers wealth is part of his cr and he has used that wealth to make his army, then I would consider the cr the same. If the undead were not detracting from his wealth and that wealth instead went toward equipment he was using against the PC's I would count the undead as an additional cr adjustment.
You consider wealth for NPCs?
For 2000 gp i can buy a +1 weapon or 80 HD of undead. What affects the CR more ?
What about spells/abilities like 'Blood Money' that replace material costs for animate dead ?
I generally consider any minions who aren't a specific class feature (animal companion, familiar, eidolon) to be separate monsters with their own CR.
To be fair, yes, they probably do, and a horde of previously created minions SHOULD be factored into the party's ECL.
Only my opinion:
Even an Animal Companion or Eidolon should factor into the parties ECL/APL as they are in fact another character (additional actions, attacks etc, even if they have lower HD/Level).
When the PCs enter the area the necromancers address them. When they learn that the PCs have massacred their underlings and the kobolds above the necromancers offer to have the PCs join them since they have unintentionally resolved not only one issue they needed to resolve but also averted having to pay their underlings. After the PCs refuse them the gnome pulls the leaver that closes the portcullises, trapping the PCs in the room. He allows the PCs to close the gap before ending the illusion spell and triggering the skeletons to act whose first action is full round running towards the nearest PC if said PC is not within charging distance and there is no one in the way.
Personally, I'm uncertain of several things here.
1) Why do the PCs converse with the necromancers?
2) Is it for the distraction?
3) Because I'd totally have flipped out and killed them.
EDIT: Look, I'm a an murder-hobo assassin. It's what I do.
EDIT 2: Well, that and edit things.
EDIT 3: I mean, a guy's gotta make a living.
|
|
If the necromancers wealth is part of his cr and he has used that wealth to make his army, then I would consider the cr the same. If the undead were not detracting from his wealth and that wealth instead went toward equipment he was using against the PC's I would count the undead as an additional cr adjustment.You consider wealth for NPCs?
For 2000 gp i can buy a +1 weapon or 80 HD of undead. What affects the CR more ?
What about spells/abilities like 'Blood Money' that replace material costs for animate dead ?
If the pc's can/are doing it, the enemies can, too. I don't increase the apl of a party that has animated dead or purchased animals or golems or craft feats or animal companions or commanded undead. I could. And when I do that is a judgment call. The same applies for any encounter I send my PC's through. Lots of skeletons buffed under a precast desecrate and were all summoned using the NPC's own resources: he's no different than a PC who did the same but unless I raise their effective all, I am not inclined to do the same to NPC's by default, just on a case by case basis.