SunsetPsychosis |
So I've been GMing a Wrath of the Righteous game for a couple sessions now, and one of my players is getting consistently frustrated in combat. He's playing a gnome blue dragon blooded sorcerer, and likes to fill his spell list with the core 'blaster' spells (Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, etc).
Problem is, a lot of the enemies in the AP are demons, which are generally resistant to acid, cold, and fire, and flat out immune to electricity (the type associated with his bloodline). So in most combats, he's just sort of resorted to grumpily plinking away at enemies with his crossbow while the greatweapon wielding paladin has a merry time smiting things.
I've tried to nudge him to maybe consider summoning other monsters, or grabbing some other conjuration spells for battlefield control rather than blasting, but he really seems to want to sling some damaging spells, as flashy damage spells was a big part of the draw for the player (who's new to Pathfinder).
Do I just flat out remove the elemental resistances from the demons? Considering that's part of their CR, would I have to buff them in other ways to compensate? Should I come up with a way to let him change damage types of his spells? I'm sort of lost on how to handle it, I just hate seeing how disappointed he looks when he sees we're fighting more demons, when that's supposed to be the highlight of the campaign.
Ascalaphus |
I say change the demons. The fun of the players is more important than adhering to orthodoxy regarding creature types. I think more overall fun will be had if the demons change a bit, than if the player has to resort to basically a different character concept.
It takes some thought to come up with a generally fair way of changing the demons. They're generally pretty nasty against blasters; not just elemental resistances, but also many of them will have spell resistance. Demons are pretty much "hard mode" for a blaster, while they're actually "easy mode" for a smiting paladin (especially when Oath of Vengeance comes online).
Here's a wild thought. Scrap the elemental resistances and immunities, or drastically reduce them. Instead, when the sorcerer fails to penetrate the demon's SR, the demon still takes the damage, but also gets to make a counterstrike on its next turn, as a swift action. The counterstrike is a blast of the same energy type, about 25% of the damage, size and maximum range. So demons still stay scary, but the sorcerer is in a decent position here. If he uses his preferred element, by level 3 he gets some resistance to that IIRC. Although his party members might grumble a bit; Resist Element spells will certainly be in order. It somewhat mitigates the FU effect of SR against a blaster, while not helping non-blasters (you know, Glitterdust, Summon Monster) any extra. But SR-penetrating abilities will still be precious to the sorcerer. And if he can blast a demon to death outright, obviously the demon doesn't get a chance to return fire.
Alternatively; make sure every demon is resistant/immune to only about 2 of acid/cold/fire/lighting, not the usual 3-4. Vary it, and try to match it to the flavor of the demon; a swamp demon will be immune to cold and acid, but not fire and lightning. A demon with fire attacks will be immune to fire but not cold. Try to make it so a common sense observer can make a good guess of the elements after watching the demon in action a few rounds. This will still challenge the blaster; he won't be able to use the same blast every time. But he WILL be able to blast. As for SR: you could just treat a failure to penetrate SR as a successful Reflex save for half damage, rather than negating the spell entirely. After all, God-Wizards rarely need to penetrate SR at all, so this isn't so excessive.
A lazy solution is to give the demon additional hit points (but not hit dice) instead of resistances. It means the paladin needs to do more whacking away, but now the sorcerer can contribute. You could then downgrade immunities to resistances. After all, it's okay if demons are resistant to some elements, just not that many.
Umbranus |
Do I just flat out remove the elemental resistances from the demons? Considering that's part of their CR, would I have to buff them in other ways to compensate? Should I come up with a way to let him change damage types of his spells? I'm sort of lost on how to handle it, I just hate seeing how disappointed he looks when he sees we're fighting more demons, when that's supposed to be the highlight of the campaign.
Tell him that he has three options: Keep on with what he's doing now, change his spells to those better suited fighting demons or reroll as another class.
Removing obstacles, especially to buff a full caster, is not advisable.
darkwarriorkarg |
1) Did you warn the player when he made the character that this would be the case?
2) If no, no sympathies on my part.
3) Maybe give him a custom feat to allow him to do sonic damage?
Resounding Spell (Metamagic)
A thunderous noise accompanies your spell.
Benefit: You may replace a spell’s normal damage with sonic energy or split the spell’s damage, so that half is sonic and half is of its normal type.
Level Increase: +2 (a sonic spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.)
Pre-Requisite: Elemental spell
SunsetPsychosis |
I told him that grabbing some battlefield control spells would be good, and he's really digging stuff like Mythic Haste. But I know he wants to be able to blow stuff up.
While I tend to optimize the hell out of my own characters, I'm more the sort of GM that gives players advice on the best way to play the concept they want, rather than tell them the concept they like is mechanically crap and that they should play a different one instead. I've had some discrepancies between optimized and nonoptimized players before, but nothing quite like what I've encountered here.
We're also only playing a two player campaign (though I gave them some NPC followers), so it's even more obvious that the paladin is really the only source of damage, and it's starting to throw off encounter balance.
Basically, I don't want to tell the player "tough crap, reroll or keep sucking". I'd rather come up with a better way to let him enjoy his character, even if it means more paperwork on my end.
Corlindale |
I think there are one or two mythic lightning spells that bypass immunity to electricity eventually. If you want to help the player make his build work, you could build on this precedent to design augmented mythic versions of some more of them (shocking grasp, lightning bolt, etc).
It doesn't negate the demons' abilities because he still has to spend a bit of mythic power to bypass their immunity, but it might help the player feel more awesome since he can now shoot electricity that's so mythically powerful that it even hurts demons.
Alternatively you could point him in the direction of ways to convert his damage to fire and fluff it as a special kind of lightning, though that's not really an elegant solution.
But ultimately I also think it's important to learn that if you build a sorceror that focuses on one specific thing (whether that's lightning, enchantment, SoD spells, etc...), you'd better have some backup options when that thing fails. That goes double if you make a lightning sorceror and know you will be playing a demon campaign.
Ascalaphus |
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If it's only him and a paladin, you should DEFINITELY change something. Because the paladin will only get more and more awesome.
There's nothing inherently sacred about the game rules. If changing them will make you and your players happy, you should certainly do it.
You actually have the advantage here that with a small party, it's easier to oversee the results of such a change, as compared to a bigger group with more characters and more side effects.
Corlindale |
An additional, really simple option is to just shuffle immunities and resistances for demons around a bit. Just make them immune to fire and resistant to lightning instead of the other way around. That's not particularly unbalanced (in general it amounts to a slight buff to demons since fire tends to have the best spells).
Bjornn |
Some really good low level spells for a blaster type would be magic missile ear & piercing scream at first level and stone call & storm of blades at 2nd. They are nice blaster spells that don't do energy damage that demons are immune to. A little retraining for the sorcerer is better them a frustrated player.
Helvellyn |
I wouldn’t recommend directly removing the energy resistances or changing them significantly. Part of the general feel of demons is these resistances and so having a demon that is vulnerable to these things doesn’t really seem like a demon.
Perhaps a better option would be to change the damage type of the player instead. Their damage spells could instead be fuelled by his righteous beliefs so for example, rather than being simply fire the player’s fireballs instead burn with the fury of the heavens. You could use Holy Smite as a reference point (i.e. full damage to evil outsiders/half damage to others).
If you are nervous about this being too powerful try using it as a metamagic feat initially but for a two player party I don’t think it will be problematic even if you don’t.
I wouldn’t worry about SR either as that can be easily breached with mythic powers/feats but if it’s still causing problems give this righteous damage a bonus to breach SR. That way they still have immunity to the save or die type spells but the player is able to still do damage to them in a style that fits their character concept.
Secane |
A Blaster Sorcerer is certainly doable. YES, such a character may be on the lower end of the power curve, but they can be made to be competent and workable.
Here are some ideals for you the GM,
1) Talk to your player about making some changes to his character
1a) Highlight the demon's immunity to electricity and suggest he (if you allow it) change to another dragon type with another damage type.
1b) Help him with getting the feats that up his caster level and those that help to penetrate SR
Basically give him a helping hand in making the right blaster sorcerer choices in character creation.
2) House rule that immunity to an energy type has a upper limit. Say immunity = Rez 25 or 30.
This means he would be able to deal some damage as he levels up.
3) Come up with a good side quest or adapt one with the reward being a feat/item that allows a player to convert part of his spell damage (50%) type to Sacred. Allowing it to bypass immunity and damage. This would allow him to still deal damage even if its not as much as he would like.
This feat or item could be a boon from his deity. Sort of like a divine approval from his deity in his fight against evil, tying him closer to the campaign.
Oterisk |
You could drop him a Lesser Elemental Rod or two. Elemental Rods don't change the type, but change the energy damage so he still gets his damage bonus but can switch out his electricity for Acid, Fire, or whatnot. That way, he can do something at least part of the day. It's probably the simplest solution, and if he is high enough level, he can spend some wealth to buy a few other ones.
Fedorchik1536 |
"DRAGONS ARE AWESOME! BEING DRAGON IS AWESOME! YOU PLAY AS A DRAGON?! YOU'RE AWESOME!!!"
Give him a number of options to have a better experience. But not free options. "These demons are tough enemies for normal caster, but you are Dragon! You have options!" Things I'd like to do:
1. There was a feat in some other d20 based game, that allowed for mere +1 adjustment to completely ignore fire resistance and even deal 50% damage to fire immune foes. You can give your player access to lightning-based version of it.
2. Sometimes I think that dragon bloodlines should give sorc more options to work with their element instead of stupid things like claws and wings. You may consider to rework some bloodline powers and/or arcana to give your player ability to have better SR rolls, ignore part some resistances or even both.
3. I don't know what exactly mythic rules give and how they work, but adding sorcerer more options to be awesome through it sounds like good idea.
Also, don't even think about making your player reroll his character, because it will probably make him angry and/or disappointed.