Let me put it this way. Do you think perception is designed to give you a general idea of where someone is or their exact location?Wraithstrike perception does both. The check you are saying doesn't get modified, the DC 20 to notice an invisible character, is a Perception check. A perception check like any other, that would be modified by appropriate modifiers. I'm even saying that you could notice a creature further than 30ft by applying the appropriate +1/10ft rule in perception.
The table under invisibility is to list modifiers that are applicable to an invisible creature. Not a complete list, since it's still just a perception check which can be modified by perception modifiers.The DC 20 to notice an invisible character says it is to have a general idea. Normally noticing a creature with perception is enough to know their exact location. But invisibility modifies that so there is a difference between noticing and pinpointing.
Per the rules overcoming a stealth DC gives you teh exact square-->=pinpointing
If you are invisible, and I beat your stealth DC, not just that 20, I know where you are.
That is pinpointing.
So there is no way that the normal(not using the special notice rule for invis) is the way perception works.
Either you pinpoint someone outside of invis or you do not know where they are. Even scent which gives you a general direction does not saying anything about "noticing" anyone.
Scent (Ex) This special quality allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source's location.
A creature with the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom (or Survival) check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10 (no matter what kind of surface holds the scent). This DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry's odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Survival skill. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
Format: scent; Location: Senses.
It says you "detect" them, and this detection is more accurate than the "noticing" in the invis section. That notice only says they are in the area. Scent lets you know which direction they are in if you take a move action. Then it "pinpoints" them when you are within 5 feet.
We now know that pinpoint means to locks them down to a square. We know that defeating a stealth DC locks them down to a square. So the normal use of perception is to pinpoint.
Pinpoint in the game means "determine a creature's square." It's one of those times where the game rule's definition of the word isn't the same as the common definition.
edit: Perception gives you the exact square anytime it makes sense to do so.
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Wraithstrike, Yes I agree with you that normal perception pinpoints, I say it's because the difference to notice (detect is the same i feel) and pinpoint is +0. Invisibility modifies that to be a +20.
Reason is, stealh says, "Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you."
perception, "Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent's Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised." "Notice a visible creature" "Notice a creature using Stealth"
invisibility, "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check." "It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. "
So again, we can put it together that to notice is DC 0, invisible DC 20, pinpoint DC 40.
Notice stealth DC stealth, invisible DC stealth+20, pinpoint DC stealth+40
Another point is the not moving. An invisible character not moving gets a +20. According to you a person walking by a stationary invisible person gets a DC 20 check to notice. Regardless to their stealth or them not moving.
Mike walks down a hall, "Wait, there's an invisible person in this hall!" Joe, "how do you know?", Mike, "I can just tell something is there just cause it's invisible. Had he just hid in this hallway I would have no idea he was here, but because they're invisible I can just tell."
Now, just cause it doesn't make sense doesn't make it not the rule, but since the rules could just as easily mean that the modifiers work all the time like I say, it makes it not only make a lot more sense and more intuitive, it is supported by the rules.
I still feel you haven't don't have anything to support that DC 20 to notice invisible being immune to modifiers.
I still feel you haven't don't have anything to support that DC 20 to notice invisible being immune to modifiers.
That is because you are reading the notice as flat DC just like the ones in the perception skill section which can get modified. I see it as the invis rules presenting a special rule, but when it going on to pinpointing it is going into the normal rules. Basically we are just parsing the text differently. That is why I think invis needs its own blog if Paizo is not going to do another one on stealth.
That is because you are reading the notice as flat DC just like the ones in the perception skill section which can get modified. I see it as the invis rules presenting a special rule, but when it going on to pinpointing it is going into the normal rules. Basically we are just parsing the text differently. That is why I think invis needs its own blog if Paizo is not going to do another one on stealth.
Why would it be a special rule instead of a flat DC just like other uses of perception? What is different here to indicate it's special? What words or phrase or anything makes you think it's special? The table in perception says the same thing as the invisible section.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check.
A creature can generally notice the presence of a visible creature within 10 feet with a DC 0 Perception check.
A creature can generally notice the stench of rotting garbage within 10 feet with a DC -10 Perception check.
the table puts it in less words. The invisible description is more detail because it's focusing on invisibility. If you disagree with this, how you you put it then of what the rules are saying?
I mean you can even just look at the invisible section alone to get this. to notice invis DC 20, +20 to pinpoint. Use modifiers on this DC. the modifiers are all modifying something except the stealth, which replaces the DC. Looking at just this section it should be clear that the DC to notice is 20 and modifiers, pinpointing being +20 to that.
Also I ask what the DC should be based off to pinpoint a creature not using stealth? What would the base be for this? My view gives a base, the DC 20. But what would you consider the base be to pinpoint an invisible character not using stealth?
I feel this should be clear and Paizo probably feels so as well and wouldn't do a blog on invis or stealth. All they'd need to say was the perception to notice invisible is a normal perception check base just like every one perception check. And that if a creature uses stealth use their stealth. Just like we've already said in the rules.
Because like I said, it list a special rule for perception. In no other place in the game do you get to notice something within 30 feet, and it calls out "invisible creatures", not objects also. Those are very specific things. It then goes on to talk about pinpointing which is how perception normally works. Since you don't have the 30 foot rule for a normal perception check or a rule that works with creatures such being able to hear giant talking vs an object making noise, it looks like a special case to me.
Because like I said, it list a special rule for perception. In no other place in the game do you get to notice something within 30 feet, and it calls out "invisible creatures", not objects also. Those are very specific things. It then goes on to talk about pinpointing which is how perception normally works. Since you don't have the 30 foot rule for a normal perception check or a rule that works with creatures such being able to hear giant talking vs an object making noise, it looks like a special case to me.
first off, what is making this a special rule for perception because I feel all your reasons are addressed below with an example of what you're claiming as special?
noticing something at a range, I think it can get up to 30ft.
Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range.
And I can think of millions of times you notice something within 30ft. Example: you walk into town, you see people, boom auto check for each person. DC 3 for 30ft.
The sentence is just saying what the base for the perception check is against an active creature, of course it doesn't say objects, they aren't active. It's not more specific then rotting garbage, visual creature, sound of battle, concealed door, a bow being drawn.
And sorry, but what reference are you using that perception is normally pinpointing? All I see in the text is noticing. I'd say you could attempt to notice an invisible creature at greater range then 30 by using the normal range modifiers for perception. I feel the special rule here is the pinpointing, since it is not a word used in perception.
You do have a 30 foot rule for a normal perception +3 to the DC.
The special rule. in the invisible section. With that aside the result of a successful perception roll normally tells you the exact square. That is pinpointing.
I wil write a longer comment later . i just noticed something and it may be in. your favor.
Normally being aware of a creature and pinpointing them is the same thing. It's only when you can't actually see the creature that pinpointing them becomes more difficult.
Normally being aware of a creature and pinpointing them is the same thing. It's only when you can't actually see the creature that pinpointing them becomes more difficult.
That's exactly what I'm saying
Normally being aware of a creature and pinpointing them is the same thing. It's only when you can't actually see the creature that pinpointing them becomes more difficult.
That is actually part of the longer post I will write when I get home. I just don't like making ling post on phones.
Do you agree or disagree that when using Stealth, the roll only applies to Perception checks for sight and sound?
I disagree, nothing in the bold text indicates it's limited to those senses to perceive. This comes into play with what Krith said that if you're being observed by any of their senses and being able to stealth. That "Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell.", that "Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent's Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised." and that "Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you." So someone could definitely use scent/smell to notice a stealthed creature.
Do you think using Stealth makes the fish harder to smell?
No, because the rogues stealth has no effect on the fish. Just like how a rogues stealth has no effect on a fighter walking next to him. Now having the fish use stealth is a completely different matter. ;P But no, stealth is used as part of movement. So I'm saying the fish is like rotting garbage. It'd be a DC -10 to notice the smell of the fish. But they'd have to beat the fishes stealth to know where the fish was. which would be a perception check against the fishes stealth check.
I'm going from the perception page on PFSRD.
A is 35. 10 because of their stealth, +5 for door, +20 for invisible.
B is 30 because of stealth and invisible.If you were thinking of the DC to hear a walking person, that's for if the person walking isn't using stealth.
This is correct.
I saw several people complain that Invisibility affected a hearing based Perception check. It's a valid concern, but I look at it this way, maybe it will be of use to some of you. I posted this a while back in a similar forum.
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It does seem more than a little odd to me that the DC of a check to hear someone walking would change if they were invisible. I think this is probably fallout from the conversion of spot/listen/search into Perception and hide/move-silently into Stealth.
To an extent I'm sure it is a byproduct of the combining of those skills. But it makes sense the way it is. When you hear something you get a very general fix on where it probably is. But very few people or creatures can track something's specific location by sound alone. You hear something and pass that information off to your eyes to try and locate the source of the sound using sight to get the specific location. However, if you hear something and can't immediately confirm it's location visually, you start questioning yourself: Did I really hear something? Where was it? Maybe it was an eco? Maybe it was the wind? If you can't confirm what you hear with other senses and pinpoint what you heard with your eyes it confuses your senses. So I think it's perfectly justifiable for Invisibility to add to the DC of locating something by sound.
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In the case of the fish scenario above. A creature would be able to smell the fish just the same as rotting garbage or something. But a scent doesn't give you a pinpoint location. Something might know you are around but still never be able to find you. Even a creature with the Scent ability is only able to pinpoint you with smell if they come within 5' of your actual possition. Until they get within 5' they only know something is in the area and they have to track it.
Additionally, there are mundane things that can be used to hinder the scent ability.
1. I was looking at notice as some unofficial game term.
2. I misunderstood some of what you were trying to say so after reanalyzing and looking over some of my old quotes about stealth here is my stance:
Notice just means you know someone or something is there. Pinpoint means you know what square(s) they are in.
Like you said normally noticing and pinpointing are covered by the same DC.
I think we can agree on this.
According to an old quote I made the notice DC for invis is affected by not moving which is covered in the chart so not moving and being within 20 feet is a 40 DC since not moving adds a +20.
So how do the DC look vs noticing and pinpointing when you are also stealthing.
Let's say you are within, 30 feet the notice DC is 20 as the base DC. If you are also not moving then it is a 40 to notice you.
So what is the pinpoint DC. Assuming you are not using stealth then it is DC 20 + and/or - modifiers such as the distance to the invisible person.
Another thing that just came to me is that you are either moving or you are not moving. If you are completely immobile then the DC to notice you should be 40. If you are moving(varies by speed), but not using stealth then the DC can drop by 5, 10, or even 20 according to the chart.
If you are using stealth then the DC to pinpoint the person is +20 in addition to any other modifiers.
Example:
+15 modifier normally
+20 invis
+10 die roll
+1 distance
+0 moving less than half your speed.
The perception pinpoint DC is a 46
What about the the notice DC:
+20 for being invis
Anywhere within 30 feet is supposed to be a flat 20 so there should not be any distance modifiers.
If you are outside of 30 feet you won't be noticed. You can only be pinpointed.
Moving less than half speed appears to invoke no penalties per the invis or stealth rules.
So by my calculation the notice DC is a flat 20 in this case. Of course being in combat or speaking gives a -20
Now comes the part about how speaking and that -20 impact stealth. The rules say if you are being observed you can not use stealth. The DC to hear someone speak is 0 and even at a greater distance than 10 feet most GM will assume this is an auto-make which it will be for many PC's, but for the sake of argument lets assume the GM is a stickler for RAW.
Since you are invisible and speaking, and 10 to 15 feet away the distance gives a +1 modifier. The guard could in theory not make that +1 if he has a negative perception modifier. Maybe he has a -1 and he rolls a 1.
Now you are not being observed and you can speak at your normal voice and still use stealth.
So what happens if you are far enough away that you can't be heard at first, but later your voice is picked up?
RAW your notice DC drops to 0 if you get to within the 30 feet.
What about the stealth DC? The RAW for invis says a creature can still be heard and it is possible to notice someone by sound even without the invis rules.
I see three possible solutions. One, rule that you are now being observed and your are no longer able to stealth. Two, use the hearing DC as the base perception DC ignoring the +20 from invis since it does nothing to make your voice harder to hear. Three, you could say the talker is noticed, but not pinpointed until the beat the stealth DC with invis included.
PS:Whispering would have the same problem<---This is said to avoid moving to focus to "Why is someone talking at a normal volume if they are trying to hide?"
So Wraithstrike, I feel you're getting there. for your sound example I'd say it's option three.
Now I feel you still have a part wrong,
Let's say you are within, 30 feet the notice DC is 20 as the base DC. If you are also not moving then it is a 40 to notice you.So what is the pinpoint DC. Assuming you are not using stealth then it is DC 20 + and/or - modifiers such as the distance to the invisible person.
the pinpoint would be base 20+20 for pinpointing +/- other modifiers like distance and if they are moving or speaking or whatnot.
If you are using stealth then the DC to pinpoint the person is +20 in addition to any other modifiers.
Example:
+15 modifier normally
+20 invis
+10 die roll
+1 distance
+0 moving less than half your speed.
The perception pinpoint DC is a 46What about the the notice DC:
+20 for being invis
Anywhere within 30 feet is supposed to be a flat 20 so there should not be any distance modifiers.
If you are outside of 30 feet you won't be noticed. You can only be pinpointed.
Moving less than half speed appears to invoke no penalties per the invis or stealth rules.
So by my calculation the notice DC is a flat 20 in this case. Of course being in combat or speaking gives a -20
to pinpoint a stealthed it would be 66, +20 to their check of 46. The invisible bonus (+20) applies to being noticed and pinpointing invisible (another +20) would be added onto that. And their notice would be their stealth check of 46. Now that you're accepting that movement would modify that DC 20 base, you should accept that using stealth replaces it. Just as it does for pinpointing. Also I'd say you can notice a non-stealthed person greater than 30ft by changing it according to perception modifiers.
again
Anywhere within 30 feet is supposed to be a flat 20 so there should not be any distance modifiers.
This is only if they are not using stealth. Their stealth replaces this value
So Wraithstrike, I feel you're getting there. for your sound example I'd say it's option three.
Now I feel you still have a part wrong,
Let's say you are within, 30 feet the notice DC is 20 as the base DC. If you are also not moving then it is a 40 to notice you.So what is the pinpoint DC. Assuming you are not using stealth then it is DC 20 + and/or - modifiers such as the distance to the invisible person.
the pinpoint would be base 20+20 for pinpointing +/- other modifiers like distance and if they are moving or speaking or whatnot.
I am going to have to disagree here. I think the flat 20 covers the entire 30 foot distance. The only way your idea works is the flat 20 starts at less than 10 feet, but it is worded that you can still notice them out to 30 feet. <--my reply to distance modifiers factoring in. Remember outside of 30 feet they can't even be noticed, only pinpointed.
to pinpoint a stealthed it would be 66, +20 to their check of 46. The invisible bonus (+20) applies to being noticed and pinpointing invisible (another +20) would be added onto that. And their notice would be their stealth check of 46. Now that you're accepting that movement would modify that DC 20 base, you should accept that using stealth replaces it. Just as it does for pinpointing. Also I'd say you can notice a non-stealthed person greater than 30ft by changing it according to perception modifiers.
That is incorrect.
The stealth rules say it(invis) is a +20 to stealth, not a +40. The invis rules also say it is +20 to stealth. The perception rules give you the square they are in once you beat the stealth DC.You don't get to double up on that +20.
Are you trying to say that beyond 30 feet where notice is not even possible per the invis rules that it(pinpoint DC) drops to a 46, but when they are closer the pinpoint DC is a 66?
I will make this simple. Using my other post what is the pinpoint DC at 60 feet. Remember invis says you can notice them(invisible creatures) within 30 feet so there should be no notice DC at all at 60 feet.
Anywhere within 30 feet is supposed to be a flat 20 so there should not be any distance modifiers.This is only if they are not using stealth. Their stealth replaces this value
I agree. That is what I was saying. I tried to differentiate when I was using stealth vs only invis, but I guess it was not clear.
Ok, I see where you got the +20 for pinpointing from. I will look at this again later on, and comment again.
wraithstrike, part of the key for my view is in the phrase "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check." where does it say that you can't notice a creature further than 30 feet? It says the base DC for a non stealthed invisible creature within 30ft is DC 20. So 40 ft would be DC 24, a +4 for the distance. To notice within 20 ft? DC 22, the +2 from the distance. Perception checks have modifiers to them.
Another part is
Like you said normally noticing and pinpointing are covered by the same DC.
The perception rules give you the square they are in once you beat the stealth DC.
Perception gives the notice DC, and I agree that normally pinpointing isn't any higher. But in invisibility it's not the same DC, pinpointing is +20 to the notice DC. This would be in addition to anything else you get from being invisible.
no stealth, 30ft. DC 20 to notice +20 for pinpoint and +/- any other modifiers appropriate. SO to pinpoint a non-moving non-stealthed person within 30ft is DC 60. Hence practically impossible to pinpoint. Heck it's very hard to even notice something is there at a DC40.
Remember outside of 30 feet they can't even be noticed, only pinpointed.
This sounds crazy. I have no idea something is out there, but I know the exact square they are in. You have to notice before you can pinpoint. Noticing is before Pinpointing.
Let's say you are within, 30 feet the notice DC is 20 as the base DC. If you are also not moving then it is a 40 to notice you.So what is the pinpoint DC. Assuming you are not using stealth then it is DC 20 + and/or - modifiers such as the distance to the invisible person.
So if you don't include the +20 for not moving in this pinpoint check, you're saying it's easier to pinpoint then to notice. If you do include the +20 to the check for them not moving, you're saying you can notice and pinpoint within 10ft for the same DC? Pinpointing invisible is supposed to be harder than noticing.
Now next point.
What about the the notice DC:
+20 for being invis
Anywhere within 30 feet is supposed to be a flat 20 so there should not be any distance modifiers.
If you are outside of 30 feet you won't be noticed. You can only be pinpointed.
Moving less than half speed appears to invoke no penalties per the invis or stealth rules.
So by my calculation the notice DC is a flat 20 in this case.
So to make sure I understand. If I'm Thog, the -1 dex guy in splint mail, and I roll for stealth and get a 1 my stealth check is -7 and Thog is 9 feet away. But Thog is invisible so you're saying the Pinpoint DC is 13. But you'd still say that the notice DC is 20 because he's invisible within 30ft. Is this correct? If so how would that work in the rules? I know what square you're in without knowing you're even there?
I think it's coming down to, why is the DC 20 to notice invisible in 30ft different then any of the other perception checks in perception?
Also, why is pinpoint your stealth score? And why can't you notice an invisible person greater than 30ft?
EDIT: you posted twice more while I was writing this, some may not apply now.
I agree. That is what I was saying. I tried to differentiate when I was using stealth vs only invis, but I guess it was not clear.
Anywhere within 30 feet is supposed to be a flat 20 so there should not be any distance modifiers.This is only if they are not using stealth. Their stealth replaces this value
But I'm saying it's replacing the Notice DC too within 30ft. So to notice a stealthed character withing 30ft is their stealth check.
wraithstrike, part of the key for my view is in the phrase "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check." where does it say that you can't notice a creature further than 30 feet? It says the base DC for a non stealthed invisible creature within 30ft is DC 20. So 40 ft would be DC 24, a +4 for the distance. To notice within 20 ft? DC 22, the +2 from the distance. Perception checks have modifiers to them.
So you are saying 30 was chosen as an arbitrary number? If not then explain the difference between 30 and 40 other than there just being another +1 distance modifier.
You guys realize you're no longer talking about the original question which is "does invisibility give bonuses to stealth?" Talking =/= stealthing.
I know. The answer is yes that it gives bonuses to stealth, but talking gives penalties to invisible characters.
So you are saying 30 was chosen as an arbitrary number? If not then explain the difference between 30 and 40 other than there just being another +1 distance modifier.
Why wouldn't the 30 be arbitrary? They could have said 40 or 20, and if either of those where printed instead of 30 you wouldn't find it odd would you? I think at most it would be ruled that the DC wouldn't change for distance until it's going further than 30ft. But even that I'm not sure of.
So you are saying 30 was chosen as an arbitrary number? If not then explain the difference between 30 and 40 other than there just being another +1 distance modifier.Why wouldn't the 30 be arbitrary? They could have said 40 or 20, and if either of those where printed instead of 30 you wouldn't find it odd would you? I think at most it would be ruled that the DC wouldn't change for distance until it's going further than 30ft. But even that I'm not sure of.
I will rephrase that. Are you saying the 30 ft really has no significance?
Look maybe it means that you can only notice and therefor pinpoint within 30ft if they are invisible. That very well could be the case. You have to notice before you pinpoint. So if you can't notice you can't pinpoint.
Look maybe it means that you can only notice and therefor pinpoint within 30ft if they are invisible. That very well could be the case. You have to notice before you pinpoint. So if you can't notice you can't pinpoint.
In that case there would be no reason for a DC at all. They rules would just say outside of 30 feet you can't detect an invisible creature without magic.
Of course the nature of the writing is not really all that clear. Thanks for the discussion. I will likely rule that invis gives a +20 and a +40 when not moving plus the other modifiers, while ignoring that 30 foot notice language to make things easier.
However, I understand what you're trying to say and in theory, I agree with it. But if you're going to use something like Inviso, I'm not going to give you +20 on not being felt. The SoH target may notice the bump and feel you rummaging around in his belt pouch if he beats your SoH, but he will not see who robbed him if he doesn't beat the Inviso bonus to hiding.
The thing is, the rules say nothing about a Different DC for seeing the person you pick pocketed him or feeling him.
No different DC to notice Stealth by hearing or sight. You either meet their DC or you do not. Non of this, I hear them but can't see them. Invisibility would be nerfed hard if you did that. "I never need to worry about their invisibility because I always perceive by sound. SO who cares what their boosted Stealth is, I ignore that and use the unmodified one still" NO! You don't get to not add the bonus to stealth for the any part of the check. Notice by sound or sight or whatever is all one check at the same value. No varying the DC between senses.
The DC already assumes you're using the best senses to do the job the best, so you can't say you're using a specific sense. Just because certain perception checks use different skills then others means you're saying you're using a different sense. You don't say, I'm making a scent perception check to notice smoke. Just like you don't say, I'm making a sight perception to counter stealth, or a hear perception to counter stealth. All of them are just a normal perception check. Otherwise, why couldn't you are using taste to notice smoke? or Touch to notice the vibration of sound? If you want to houserule it different you're welcomed to. But the rules say you wouldn't do what you're saying.
I've always figured that the DC20 for 'active' invisible creatures applies to ones that aren't stealthing. Makes it simple and sensible, to me.
The DC already assumes you're using the best senses to do the job the best, so you can't say you're using a specific sense.False. The DC assume a particular (default) sense or set of senses. There's absolutely no restriction or prohibition preventing a player wanting to sniff the air, close their eyes and listen, or feel the texture of the wall.
You don't say, I'm making a scent perception check to notice smoke.Because people apply common sense that you can only use your nose to smell. What you can absolutely do is state that you roll Perception for smoke which means that you might detect it visually or through scent. And in this situation, you can make one roll. If the number beats the required DC for smell, you smell, even if you don't see it. If the smoke were invisible and you beat the DC for smell and sight, you'd get both.
Just like you don't say, I'm making a sight perception to counter stealth, or a hear perception to counter stealth.Because Stealth covers both sight and sound and Perception allows you to use all five senses at one. All five senses are not subject to the same DC.
You seem unwilling to contemplate is that I can use one roll and apply different modifiers to different senses as appropriate. For simplicity's sake, most people don't bother. But in circumstances where it might be much easier to hear someone than see someone, you absolutely can allow one sense to succeed and the others to fail.
Otherwise, why couldn't you are using taste to notice smoke? or Touch to notice the vibration of sound?You absolutely can. Paizo just has not given us baseline DC's or modifiers for these specific things, so most GMs don't bother with it unless a player makes the case/request. It's not house-ruling, it's adjudicating.
But equating the lack of specific DC's for these things is not Pathfinder saying they can't be done. Paizo cannot and will not exhaustively detail everything that is...
The bolded parts emphasize my points. The DC's are given assuming a sense or combination of senses. Paizo will not give an exhaustively detail list of everything. But they have said that the DC increases by 20 if they are invisible. So I guess you could say that using only hearing to perceive someone using stealth is +20 to the DC. Since you can not see them. That it's a +20 to notice the effects of an invisible creature, since you can not see them. You have nothing to support that the +20 to stealth checks that Paizo specifically gives invisible people doesn't apply to all perception checks to notice them. I agree that being invisible doesn't make you quieter or do anything to your sound or scent, but it does boost your stealth to be notice by an opposed perception check. And you can easily describe it as it's that much harder to locate a creature when you're not using sight.
In your smoke example there are not two different DCs at work, a smell and a sight. for you to notice smoke it's all or nothing. Whether it's because of just smell, or just sight, or both. If the DC to notice smoke is 20 for the example, then if you roll a perception 20, you notice it, a perception 1000, you notice it just the same as the 20, a simple yes or no to "do I notice it?"
So not only does my way explain why the rules work as they do. I don't need to modify anything Paizo has written to do so. I don't need to say you need to do lots of extra work to understand what to do. I don't say it doesn't work how it should work.
And you can easily describe it as it's that much harder to locate a creature when you're not using sight.It is not any harder to HEAR the person when I can't see them. You've already admitted this. I can hear them the exact same as if they are visible. What I cannot do is pinpoint them.
So not only does my way explain why the rules work as they do. I don't need to modify anything Paizo has written to do so. I don't need to say you need to do lots of extra work to understand what to do. I don't say it doesn't work how it should work.You mean other than completely ignoring the fact that Inviso only applies to vision? You're changing the rules by applying it to Perception checks that involve hearing. Why? Because you can't contemplate one Perception roll applying to different DC's? Then roll twice if that makes you feel better.
Wratih pointed this out to you before and you have insistent on ignoring it:
The Invisibility rules tell you that they are restricted to sight. They do this before it talks about any modifiers or lists any charts. That restriction trumps all other rules with regard to how Invisibility works. No matter what other rules apply, Invisibility is limited to checks focused on vision. That's a fact. That's RAW. You don't get to ignore that when using Stealth. The limitation of Invisibility is never removed in the description.
As Wraith pointed out, you don't get to ignore that restriction at ANY POINT when dealing with invisibility. You stubbornly refuse to apply the restriction that has been explicitly placed on Invisibility simply because every sentence and chart doesn't repeat what is stated right from the beginning.
I don't think we have anything left to discuss.
There is no restrictions to invisibility not boosting your stealth check. YES you can not see them, Does that mean it's not any harder to notice them? It definitely is harder to notice them if they are invisible.
Also for my bolded of your quote. What is the DC to notice a person using stealth with only sound? IT DOESN'T SAY!!!! SO even though being invisible doesn't make you quieter, It can change the DC needed to notice you while being invisible. YOU even said
Paizo just has not given us baseline DC's or modifiers for these specific things
SO do you know the Baseline DC for noticing stealthed based only on hearing? or the modifier for only hearing? All I know is that it wouldn't be less then 20. because that's the bonus you get while invisible.
Because you can't contemplate one Perception roll applying to different DC's? Then roll twice if that makes you feel better.
I totally do. I believe it's one perception roll to see if you notice and or pinpoint them. I believe it's 1 knowledge roll and different DC's for how much info you get. What I don't believe in is saying it's rules to use less then all the intended senses to perceive and say it's the same DC. It's not a DC stealth to see and a DC stealth to hear, IT's a DC stealth to notice with perception. Perception covers all senses. YOU say that stealth uses at least sight and hearing. But then say that modifying it doesn't change the DC.
now for the sake of understanding, when would the +20 to stealth come into play according to you? Since it's impossible to see them, what would it be used for?
There is no restrictions to invisibility not boosting your stealth checklol. Yes there is Pwn, the restriction is to vision. The +20 Stealth benefit applies to being able to visually detect someone. You get +0 on Stealth with regards to being quiet.
If you can't acknowledge this, then there is no basis for us to discuss the rest of it.
Okay, show me the quote that restricts the stealth bonus only to vision.
Oh and it better not be this part
The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision.
Because that's saying that it's impossible to detect them with vision. According to this in Impossible to visually detect someone.
Also AS you said, we don't know the modifiers most of the time for using different senses or less then all the combination of assumed senses. BUT fortunately for us we get that it's a +20 for their stealth without sight. Since as the line states, you are "impossible to detect them with vision."
We are given DC and that DC is not 25. There isn't a +20 to perceive them through a closed door when you clearly can't see the person and they are technically invisible to you.
The rules say otherwise.
Are you invisible? If so, then you get a +20 to your stealth check/the DC perception DC against you increases by 20.
I've tried to distinguish from the beginning, hearing someone in the room and "noticing" them per the rules are not necessarily the same thing.
I'm interested to hear what this difference is. To me, any indication that something is there is noticing. I'm at the understanding that the "hunch" mentioned in invisibility is noticing as per the stealth rules. Hearing a creature using stealth is noticing them. Knowing that they are there somewhere. So I don't understand what you're talking about when you say that hearing them and noticing them are two different things.
Yes, based on the use of the word "impossible", it is not unreasonable to think that the Perception roll is actually using all the sense except vision, and -20 is the penalty you pay. But the key here is that these are penalties to locate the person.
I'm glad to see that you recognize my view as a valid interpretation. This does help me know that you are giving thought to what I'm saying and not just ignoring my stance. But you're wrong on a point. This is a penalty to notice a person not locating. As discussed with wraithstrike, perception is to notice, and usually noticing and pinpointing are the same DC. So you roll you hit the notice you also pass the pinpoint. But if you're "invisible" noticing is just "knowing" that something is there, in that area; the pinpointing is a +20. So if it's now a DC 25 to notice if you rolled a 30 perception you notice not pinpoint. If you rolled a 45, you notice and pinpoint together. I feel that this might get cleared up some as you explain what you feel the difference between notice and hear is.
We are given DC and that DC is not 25. There isn't a +20 to perceive them through a closed door when you clearly can't see the person and they are technically invisible to you.The rules say otherwise.
Are you invisible? If so, then you get a +20 to your stealth check/the DC perception DC against you increases by 20.
This is good. It makes sense to me that the DC goes up by the invisible amount since they are effectively invisible to you. (I think there's wording somewhere that says if you can't see them they are invisible to you but maybe not) And since it's through a door you take more penalties because it's harder to hear.
Muffle Sound
School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, cleric 2, inquisitor 2
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets 1 ally/level
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; Spell Resistance: yes
You suppress sounds made by the targets, granting them a
+4 bonus on Stealth checks. The targets have a 20% chance
of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components
or using abilities that have audible components (such as
some bardic performances). This spell does not hamper
the targets’ ability to hear other sounds and provides no
protection against language-dependent or sonic spells
and effects.
So here we now have the other side of this. Your sound is suppressed, and it give a +4 to stealth. Again, this would be to all stealth checks. Since stealth is only 1 kind of check. The "two parts" are combined into one skill. So being quieter is giving a +4, because it's still just as easy to see you. So they figure that a +4 is all the difference needed to adjust for that. Because perception against stealth is ran as a "yes or no to do you notice them?" This doesn't even give a bonus to not having your walking heard, your talking heard or any other "sound" based check, only to your stealth checks.
I think there's wording somewhere that says if you can't see them they are invisible to you but maybe not
Your opponent would be blind to you, granting you total concealment.
As far as Perception (vision vs. other senses) this entry might shed some light, so to speak. It is written similarly to what you see in the Invisibility description, but a few differences make some things a little smoother:
A creature blinded by darkness can make a Perception check as a free action each round in order to locate foes (DC equal to opponents' Stealth checks). A successful check lets a blinded character hear an unseen creature “over there somewhere.” It's almost impossible to pinpoint the location of an unseen creature. A Perception check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the unseen creature's square (but the unseen creature still has total concealment from the blinded creature).
If any of you get time I have done a small rewrite on the stealth section.
To avoid TLDR I did not recopy the entire stealth or invisibility section. I would like for you to read it and let me know if there are any questions not answered. I know my rules are not official, but it is what I intend to use for my own games.
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I still disagree about this point, "or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving to avoid being pinpointed." per the rules it's a +20 to all stealth and other 20 to pinpoint.
Other than that you've said everything that the rules already say. But it is a little more clear to those not wanting to piece things together. Good job! :D