Hot Conditions are laughable.

[Andrew R]

i can remember a PFS scenario that basically says that even if you have proper shelter, fire and piles of wool blankets you still have to save every hour. 2 survivalist types almost walked out.

[Joshua Goudreau]

I feel that the rules are adequate for most games where the environment isn't a major factor. They do a decent job of giving a little something to reflect that hot and cold conditions can be dangerous without miring casual games down in extensive rules. When and if Paizo makes some kind of wilderness book we will likely see more robust rules sets for people that want to make use of them.

As an outdoorsy type it constantly amazes me how little people understand about the dangers of the woods. I am constantly hearing stories of or encountering people on the trail that just don't get it. They set out with children and no water or light sources thinking they can walk in the mountains 'until it starts to get dark' then turn around and be just fine. So many people get lost and some die because they just don't understand or take things seriously.

[Mr Jade]

I didn't really know about the cold conditions, but I just wanted to raise the banner and let people know about the hot ones.

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

Congrats on finishing up!

That ranchy place wouldn't be Heifer International's ranch, would it?

No, it's a place in Hot Springs.

[JoeJ]

Andrew R wrote:

i can remember a PFS scenario that basically says that even if you have proper shelter, fire and piles of wool blankets you still have to save every hour. 2 survivalist types almost walked out.

That's PFS First Steps part III: A Vision of Betrayal. The PCs have to make a Fortitude save every hour because the temperature is below 40 F. I guess if it ever snowed in Absalom the entire city would be wiped out.

[LazyTemplar]

Davor wrote:

I think it's important to realize that warm temperatures are very dependent on where you've spent most of your life. I've walked for hours in 100+ degree weather with regular water and been fine. On the other hand, France had one of its worst heat waves in decades relatively recently, getting up to the upper 80s, and they had hundreds of DEATHS caused by it.

Typical temperature can influence things, and unless most adventurers spend regular time in these environments, it actually makes a bit of sense.

They use Celsius over there, so 80 degrees is actually 176 degrees Fahrenheit. Pretty darn hot.

[Umbranus]

LazyTemplar wrote:

Davor wrote:

I think it's important to realize that warm temperatures are very dependent on where you've spent most of your life. I've walked for hours in 100+ degree weather with regular water and been fine. On the other hand, France had one of its worst heat waves in decades relatively recently, getting up to the upper 80s, and they had hundreds of DEATHS caused by it.

Typical temperature can influence things, and unless most adventurers spend regular time in these environments, it actually makes a bit of sense.

They use Celsius over there, so 80 degrees is actually 176 degrees Fahrenheit. Pretty darn hot.

I am pretty sure it's never been 80°C in France. I live near enough to France to have noticed it. But it is right that the last feew hot summers caused some deaths in europe. Its mostly the ill or elderly who suffer from weather like that. Old people often don't drink enough and when it gets hot some die of dehydration. Especially those living alone.

For a healthy joung adult 80-100°F if exhausting. For the elderly it can be deadly. And around 100°F is what parts of france and big parts of europe had during some of the recent summers. (37,8°C)
And very few residental buildings have air-condishening.

Last year on one of the hottest weekends 'round here three of us were setting up tents for a medieval reenactment. In the evening, after 6 big tents, one of us more or less collapsed and only then did I realize that he had drunk too little and the wrong stuff. I felt more or less fine but I'd drunk almost 2 gal, mostly water, and worn some headgear all day.

[Rub-Eta]

Yeah no, it's not even 80°C in the desert let alone France. I don't think it's even 60°C on hot summer days in the desert (context: water boils at 100°C).

[RDM42]

"On 13 September 1922, a temperature of 58 °C (136.4 °F) was purportedly recorded at El Azizia (approximately 40 kilometers south-southwest of Tripoli) in what is now modern-day Libya…. [T]he WMO World Archive of Weather and Climate Extremes has rejected this temperature extreme of 58 °C as the highest temperature officially recorded on the planet. The WMO assessment is that the highest recorded surface temperature of 56.7 °C (134 °F) was measured on 10 July 1913 at 46 Greenland Ranch (Death Valley) CA USA."

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/MichaelLevin.shtml

[Tacticslion]

ALL OF YOU FLORIDIANS NEED TO MOVE TO OCALA.
Place is awesome.
(And I can maybe get some real life gaming group started.)

EDIT: that's not to say we don't have problems, bad people, hicks, or dealers. But I've seen those folk everywhere I've been, not just here. And besides: don't hang out with those people. Hang out with me! :D

[LazyTemplar]

Sigh. Is there a secret signal for "this is clearly a joke" on the forums I don't know about?

Because between "he's being silly" and "that guy must be really bad with temperature units," at least 3 people just picked the latter.

[Kryptik]

I don't think this has been brought up yet, apologies if it has...

...but have you tried exercising with armor and a pack weighing 50 pounds at said summer camp? Didn't think so.

[Cranky Dog]

JoeJ wrote:

That's PFS First Steps part III: A Vision of Betrayal. The PCs have to make a Fortitude save every hour because the temperature is below 40 F. I guess if it ever snowed in Absalom the entire city would be wiped out.

If they're like regular people, they'd go "It looks chilly outside, I'll put on a scarf and mittens. Or better yet stay inside more."

Cold-Weather outfits grant +5 Fort save on cold weather. Lighter appropriate clothes could offer similar bonuses.

Alternate rules could just reduce the weather conditions severity by one step.

The environmental rules are more of an abstraction for the unprepared adventurer in full gear instead of the average local commoner already used to the environment and conducting doing his daily business.

[Bigger Club]

90ish pounds of gear and 90F, I would say it was that hot only for about 5 hours. So let's see heavy clothing/armor yep so -4 to the save. I would say at the time I had +1 modifier from Con. Assuming I am 1-2nd level expert base save is 0.

1st hour: DC 15 Need to roll 18 15% chance of making the save.
2nd hour: DC 16 Need to roll 19 10% chance of making the save.
3rd-5th hours: DC 17-19 need to roll 20, 5% chance of making the save.

Potential is 5d4 non lethal, on average I make 0.4 of a save. So the damage is 4d4+1d4x0.6 on average that is 11.5. As we established I am expert of level 1-2 as npc I do not get max roll on first level so as such I should have fallen uncouncious. That did not happen, well maybe I got lucky and made one save. Now I wonder why of the about 40 people there not one did lose their conciousness much less die despite there being people who were in lot worse shape than I was.

So yeah, the envioremental rules for hot and cold weather do not hold up in the least.

@Laurefindel : Yeah I am aware. I was referring to the original author with said comment. I should have probably been more clear on that.

Also on that PFS thing: 40F....okay I would put on a warm shirt/hoodie/etc. But might not put on a jacket If I did a light one, heck sure not even gloves much less mittens. So it seems I spoke too soon PF writers also lack sense/experience about weather.

[Ravingdork]

Tacticslion wrote:

ALL OF YOU FLORIDIANS NEED TO MOVE TO OCALA.

Place is awesome.
(And I can maybe get some real life gaming group started.)

Wow. That puts you a little over an hour away from me. And only about 50 minutes away from where our gaming group regularly meets!

Why don't you come game with us some time? :D

[Zalman]

Joshua Goudreau wrote:

I feel that the rules are adequate for most games where the environment isn't a major factor. They do a decent job of giving a little something to reflect that hot and cold conditions can be dangerous without miring casual games down in extensive rules. When and if Paizo makes some kind of wilderness book we will likely see more robust rules sets for people that want to make use of them.

As an outdoorsy type it constantly amazes me how little people understand about the dangers of the woods. I am constantly hearing stories of or encountering people on the trail that just don't get it. They set out with children and no water or light sources thinking they can walk in the mountains 'until it starts to get dark' then turn around and be just fine. So many people get lost and some die because they just don't understand or take things seriously.

Bingo. As every experienced outdoors enthusiast knows, the possibility of hypothermia or heat exhaustion is not reserved for the most extreme conditions.

And not all 40F is created equal: 40F in Colorado? Sunny, dry, I could walk around in a t-shirt all day as long as I was moving. 40F in Washington's cold rain, I'd be wearing a three-layer buffer and fighting to stay dry and warm enough, between the rain, and the sweat from exertion, to avoid hypothermia.

[JoeJ]

Zalman wrote:

Joshua Goudreau wrote:

I feel that the rules are adequate for most games where the environment isn't a major factor. They do a decent job of giving a little something to reflect that hot and cold conditions can be dangerous without miring casual games down in extensive rules. When and if Paizo makes some kind of wilderness book we will likely see more robust rules sets for people that want to make use of them.

As an outdoorsy type it constantly amazes me how little people understand about the dangers of the woods. I am constantly hearing stories of or encountering people on the trail that just don't get it. They set out with children and no water or light sources thinking they can walk in the mountains 'until it starts to get dark' then turn around and be just fine. So many people get lost and some die because they just don't understand or take things seriously.

Bingo. As every experienced outdoors enthusiast knows, the possibility of hypothermia or heat exhaustion is not reserved for the most extreme conditions.

And not all 40F is created equal: 40F in Colorado? Sunny, dry, I could walk around in a t-shirt all day as long as I was moving. 40F in Washington's cold rain, I'd be wearing a three-layer buffer and fighting to stay dry and warm, between the rain, and the sweat from exertion, to avoid hypothermia.

And 40F outside when you're in an enclosed wagon with a wood stove going and wearing cold weather clothes?

[Zalman]

JoeJ wrote:

Zalman wrote:

Joshua Goudreau wrote:

I feel that the rules are adequate for most games where the environment isn't a major factor. They do a decent job of giving a little something to reflect that hot and cold conditions can be dangerous without miring casual games down in extensive rules. When and if Paizo makes some kind of wilderness book we will likely see more robust rules sets for people that want to make use of them.

As an outdoorsy type it constantly amazes me how little people understand about the dangers of the woods. I am constantly hearing stories of or encountering people on the trail that just don't get it. They set out with children and no water or light sources thinking they can walk in the mountains 'until it starts to get dark' then turn around and be just fine. So many people get lost and some die because they just don't understand or take things seriously.

Bingo. As every experienced outdoors enthusiast knows, the possibility of hypothermia or heat exhaustion is not reserved for the most extreme conditions.

And not all 40F is created equal: 40F in Colorado? Sunny, dry, I could walk around in a t-shirt all day as long as I was moving. 40F in Washington's cold rain, I'd be wearing a three-layer buffer and fighting to stay dry and warm, between the rain, and the sweat from exertion, to avoid hypothermia.

And 40F outside when you're in an enclosed wagon with a wood stove going and wearing cold weather clothes?

Hehe, yeah, the sort of ruling that doesn't allow for the possibility of preparedness to have an effect seems pretty silly to me, but hey, if that's someone's thing, then "RAW on"! :-)

[Rynjin]

Tacticslion wrote:

ALL OF YOU FLORIDIANS NEED TO MOVE TO OCALA.

Place is awesome.
(And I can maybe get some real life gaming group started.)

EDIT: that's not to say we don't have problems, bad people, hicks, or dealers. But I've seen those folk everywhere I've been, not just here. And besides: don't hang out with those people. Hang out with me! :D

Heh, maybe if I ever move back to Florida. I have some friends that live in Ocala too.

[Arikiel]

Personally anything above 70 is uncomfortable. Above 80 and I start shutting down. It really seem to very a lot between people. In my custom setting a lot off the different human ethnicities have either the heat or cold tolerance trait that adjusts the ranges set in the core rulebook.

[Lincoln Hills]

While I agree that the temperature ranges are a bit on the conservative side, we need to bear in mind that those 'universal baseline' numbers assume that you're walking around in wool, linen and leather, possibly armor, and carrying a thirty-pound pack without any of the last thousand years' advances in backpacking technology. I'd imagine most GMs would allow nudity in high temperatures to grant a bonus on the save or even eliminate the need for saves in the lowest category.

One thing I was surprised to see missing from the Traits were Arctic Background, High-Altitude Background, and Tropical Background to increase one's "safe" temperature range. (Growing up in certain deserts you'd qualify for all three!) Not that anybody would take them when there are traits that improve initiative out there... but I kinda expected them to appear in the books even if they were never popular.

[Umbranus]

I still think about some day playing a guy with at least 1 level in winter oracle and 3 levels in invulnerable rager to get both endure elements hot and cold permanently on. But on the other hand some armor with a compfort enchantment is so easy to get and already helps a lot, counting as hot or cold weather outfit depending on what's better.
In addition to many of my PCs having endurance...

[Thelemic_Noun]

Ravingdork wrote:

What's so bad about Florida? I know it's got a bad rap, but why? Most of the things I hear about it just aren't true (or are extremely exaggerated).

http://www.fark.com/florida

[Thelemic_Noun]

Interesting facts:

Human proteins typically break down at temperatures much above 98 ºF, losing their structure and becoming nonfunctional. However, individuals who spend time in hot environments (even just a few days) begin creating "chaperone proteins" that stick to the outer layers of critical proteins and prevent them from deforming. Of course, as temperatures increase, even these proteins can eventually be overwhelmed, but their presence can make the difference between life and death in extreme situations.

While a human will fall into a coma after three to four days without water, their body (barring environmental factors such as extreme heat or cold) will typically survive for up to 12 days. However, permanent organ damage will have occurred by this time.

The two greatest examples of human survival in hot environments are Pablo Valencia and Mauro Prosperi:

Spoiler:

Pablo Valencia got lost in the Sonoran Desert of the Southwest United States way back in 1905 and would hold the record for survival until Prosperi almost 90 years later. He wandered for an entire week without any water, save what he sucked out of a scorpion he killed with his bare hands sometime around day three.

When he realized he was lost, he believed one of the other prospectors had deliberately led him there to die and claim the mineral rights for himself. He went on to perform one of the most incredible feats of hot-weather survival, powered entirely by his desire to stab his coworker in the neck. (Is the dark side stronger? Yes, yes it is.)

Get a load of the camp doctor's description of him when Pablo finally showed up:

"Pablo was stark naked; his formerly full-muscled legs and
arms were shrunken and scrawny...his lips had disappeared as if
amputated, leaving low edges of blackened tissue; his teeth and
gums projected like those of a skinned animal, but the flesh was
black and dry as a hank of jerky; his nose was withered and shrunken
to half its length...the freshest cuts were as so many scratches
in dry leather, without trace of blood or scrum...We found him
deaf to all but loud sounds, and so blind as to distinguish nothing
save light and dark."

Pablo was so dehydrated, they had to first soak his leathery skin in water to rehydrate him, because it was literally impossible to put fluids into his digestive system in the state they'd found him in.

The most amazing thing: he made a full recovery, and the only trace of the ordeal was the sudden and premature graying of his hair.

Now to the record-holder, Prosperi, an Italian police officer and amateur marathon runner who got lost in the Sahara Desert during the Marathon des Sables in Morocco in 1994. This guy had the advantage of being a marathon runner as opposed to a prospector, but we're talking about the Sahara Desert here.

He was lost, with no supplies, for 11 days.

Three days after a sandstorm made him lose sight of the course, he found a small Muslim shrine, with some bats living on the ceiling. He promptly killed two of them, cut off their heads with his utility knife, and drank their blood. He then wrote a suicide note to his wife and slit his wrists, only to find that he had lost so much water that his cuts would not bleed. So he stumbled out into the desert, walking during twilight and early morning, hiding by day and burying himself in sand at night to avoid freezing to death. He yanked up the few tiny plants he came across and sucked on the roots, licked cracks in the rocks during the predawn hours, and drank his own urine.

He finally came across an oasis after eight days of drinking urine, cutting off bat heads, licking rocks, eating insects and scorpions (a recurring theme in these events), and sucking on the roots of desert weeds. Two days later, he came across a Tuareg girl herding goats, having walked all the way to Algeria from Morocco, a journey of 130 miles.

The little girl, seeing a white man walk out of the desert in a condition almost as bad as Valencia above, thought he was an evil spirit and ran screaming for her mother. (Just imagine what he'd have looked like on day eight, before he found the oasis). The girl's mother was wise enough in the ways of the world to recognize that evil djinn don't wear Lycra marathon suits with little Italian flags stitched on them, and got him to an Algerian military hospital.

He had lost almost a quarter of his body weight, almost all of it water. His story was so incredible, and so far beyond what was believed medically possible at the time, that many doctors didn't believe him, until the Algerian hospital records and some truly disturbing photographs of his condition arriving at the hospital were made public.

[Arikiel]

As a general rule I'd say if it's below the freezing point of water (32 ºF) or hotter outside then you are on the inside (98.6 ºF) bad things start to happen. The wearing of clothing and the ability to sweat can extend this range a bit.

[Scythia]

I've always run it that resist cold 5, or resist fire 5 automatically meant that they were immune to cold or hot climate respectively. It's not RAW, but it makes sense to me that beings who can resist the literally damaging extremes can resist the less harmful effects of temperature.

[Chengar Qordath]

Lincoln Hills wrote:

While I agree that the temperature ranges are a bit on the conservative side, we need to bear in mind that those 'universal baseline' numbers assume that you're walking around in wool, linen and leather, possibly armor, and carrying a thirty-pound pack without any of the last thousand years' advances in backpacking technology. I'd imagine most GMs would allow nudity in high temperatures to grant a bonus on the save or even eliminate the need for saves in the lowest category.

Yeah, I think the numbers are pretty fair if you assume the characters aren't doing anything to protect themselves from the weather. The problem is that they don't really account for taking proper precautions beyond being able to make a survival roll for a save bonus. The heat rules would be a lot more reasonable if you could just do something like drink twice as much water as normal to remove the need for a saving throw.

[Tacticslion]

Ravingdork wrote:

Tacticslion wrote:

ALL OF YOU FLORIDIANS NEED TO MOVE TO OCALA.

Place is awesome.
(And I can maybe get some real life gaming group started.)

Wow. That puts you a little over an hour away from me. And only about 50 minutes away from where our gaming group regularly meets!

Why don't you come game with us some time? :D

Sounds awesome! PM me!

(Also, do you happen to have any games that take place precisely between 9:20 AM and 11 AM? 'Cause that's generally when I'm free to take 50 minute trips in a day. Otherwise, a toddler and/or gaming enthusiast wife may be with me. :D)

Rynjin wrote:

Tacticslion wrote:

ALL OF YOU FLORIDIANS NEED TO MOVE TO OCALA.

Place is awesome.
(And I can maybe get some real life gaming group started.)

EDIT: that's not to say we don't have problems, bad people, hicks, or dealers. But I've seen those folk everywhere I've been, not just here. And besides: don't hang out with those people. Hang out with me! :D

Heh, maybe if I ever move back to Florida. I have some friends that live in Ocala too.

Sweet! If they're into gaming get them to contact me through you!

Anyway, you guys can all PM me! :D

[Andrew R]

Scythia wrote:

I've always run it that resist cold 5, or resist fire 5 automatically meant that they were immune to cold or hot climate respectively. It's not RAW, but it makes sense to me that beings who can resist the literally damaging extremes can resist the less harmful effects of temperature.

6 would make you immune at any rate since environmental damage is 1d6