So, in my limited experience with PFS, I've yet to see a trap disarmed. I've been thinking about an Urban Ranger or Archaeologist Bard but realized that maybe the stuff I'd give up isn't worth it for just the ability to deal with traps.
Honestly, it seems like parties just rely on Cure Wands instead.
Does this change after level 3?
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Depends on the traps. The majority just deal damage and are a resource sink. Yet others are tied to an encounter and often there isn't a chance to spend 1d4 minutes disabling it.
The trouble comes into play at higher levels with non-damage dealing magic traps which can't be disarmed w/o trapfinding.
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There are two options:
A) High Perception, no Disable Device. The party relies on either a disposable creature (Summon Monster) or a high saving throw PC (monk, paladin, superstitious barbarian, etc) to trigger the device and will curative magic to deal with the aftereffects.
B) High Perception, Disable Device. The party relies on a skilled trap finder to eliminate traps.
Option A is extremely viable but drains the party of resources (cures, summons, rage rounds for superstitious barbarians). Also, at higher levels, traps are more than likely to have nasty status effects that can hinder a PC for the rest of the scenario.
Option B is makes everyone happy when your skillset is present.
I just ran a scenario that had 10 locked doors and 4 traps (3 damage, 1 status). The party had a Rogue/Pathfinder Agent that opened every door and cleared 2 traps--the other 2 he barely missed percepting. While the dungeon was eminently doable without him, it would have been much more a slog and a heal-drain.
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And in high level scenarios, there are traps that have automatic or instant reset and do more than just hit-point damage. These can often be very deadly traps.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Lets see. Some traps that spring (ha ha) to mind from recent scenarios I have been in.
Trap that brings down the whole tunnel on the PCs, resulting in "cave in." All characters in the zone take 8d6 damage, save for half, and are buried meaning they take 1d6 per minute until they can make a DC 25 Strength check.
Alarm trap located 5 rounds of movement away from the alchemist encounter. Alchemist goes from being surprised in his lab to suprizing the party from invisibility, spider climbing, and on the roof 20 feet above them, mage armored, and fully buffed.
Trap that is powered by a resource that the PCs need to succeed at their primary mission. The more times you set it off, the less of the resource you have, and the less likely you are to succeed.
Trap releasing a swarm that the PCs do not have the right tools to fight.
Trap adds enemies to an already tough encounter or results in combining two encounters that you would otherwise fight separately.
Trap sets off two additional traps.
Trap splits the party dumping one or more of them into encounter b while the others are still fighting encounter a and can't get to them. (That one was really, really evil.)
In fact a lot of times a trap going off is the difference between the enemy being buffed and not buffed.
Things I have not yet seen but could:
Trap that kills the hostages you were sent to rescue.
Trap renders the easy passage impassible, forcing the PCs to go around through the hard passage.
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Depends on the traps. The majority just deal damage and are a resource sink. Yet others are tied to an encounter and often there isn't a chance to spend 1d4 minutes disabling it.
Did you mean 2d4 rounds?
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I'll generally agree with a lot of the comments in this thread. I have two trap-focused characters, and maybe I'm a traditionalist but I feel a bit naked if we don't have somebody with trapfinding in the party.
My general advice is to have something else that you do in all of the scenarios that don't include traps.
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Depends on the traps. The majority just deal damage and are a resource sink. Yet others are tied to an encounter and often there isn't a chance to spend 1d4 minutes disabling it.Did you mean 2d4 rounds?
Not for my traps!
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A scenario writer can never assume there is a PC that can detect or disarm traps in the party. Therefore any traps must be bypassable with "just" resource drain. So I wouldn't make it a primary focus of your character.
However I can think of several scenarios that are easier if you bypass traps, particularly magical "traps" like Alarm.
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Trap finding is widely variable in its use. Many scenarios have zero traps in them. Many scenarios have traps, but all setting them off does is suck up some charges of you clw wand. This covers most of the traps most of the time.
But then there's those scenarios every once in a while, where the group walks in to the dungeon, the person in the lead steps on a pressure plate...
...and a harpoon trailing a chain flies across the room impaling him. The winches begin to reel in dragging the unfortunate fellow across several more pressure plates. He slams into the opposite wall, still held up by the harpoon stuck through his chest, the shafts of the half dozen crossbow bolts the other traps fired protruding from his corpse. These situations are fairly infrequent, but when they do occur having a trap finder is most welcome.
(and yes, that is from a pfs scenario)
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Lets not forget the scenarios where bypassing the trap actually lowers your treasure because you had to fall in those pits and find something.Any GM that does this should be reported as the guide specifically says to not lose out on loot due to good gaming.
Heh. Had one like that, just the other day, but the GM made sure to ask us if we wanted it disabled open or closed.
Disabled open, looted what was in it, then used mad skillz to close it.
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Not for my traps!Depends on the traps. The majority just deal damage and are a resource sink. Yet others are tied to an encounter and often there isn't a chance to spend 1d4 minutes disabling it.Did you mean 2d4 rounds?
Clearly I've underestimated the devilish complexity of your traps! ;-) I'll be certain to beware of them in the future...
:)
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Lets not forget the scenarios where bypassing the trap actually lowers your treasure because you had to fall in those pits and find something.Any GM that does this should be reported as the guide specifically says to not lose out on loot due to good gaming.
I totally agree... except there is one recent scenario that specifically tells the GM to reduce the players' gold if they bypass the pit trap with the money in it.
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Adding to the traps (I recently ran into) remembered.
A trap with a negative energy stat drain and a curse (a pretty interesting one) that allows the BBEG multiple rounds of buffing. (PFS Scenario)
A trap that makes use of a consumable (multiple copies of same consumable) that could be used in combat by party or sold as part of loot. (PFS Sanctioned Module)
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Having a trapfinder is kinda like having a dedicated healer. No one usually complains when you bring one along, but they can also usually manage without one, it just takes more resources from everyone. It can get a bit annoying if the trapfinding character wants to roll triple checks every time see something new and it starts to slow the game down, but otherwise can be useful.
The second TPK I ever was in resulted from something I think was a trap. It realeased a swarm when one of the PCs went "just stand back, I can take the damage if this is a trap".
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Adding to the traps (I recently ran into) remembered.
A trap with a negative energy stat drain and a curse (a pretty interesting one) that allows the BBEG multiple rounds of buffing. (PFS Scenario)
A trap that makes use of a consumable (multiple copies of same consumable) that could be used in combat by party or sold as part of loot. (PFS Sanctioned Module)
If that last one is the one I think it is, it is also more damage than anyone but a PC with Evasion (Improved Evasion?) that makes their save can handle.
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I totally agree... except there is one recent scenario that specifically tells the GM to reduce the players' gold if they bypass the pit trap with the money in it.Lets not forget the scenarios where bypassing the trap actually lowers your treasure because you had to fall in those pits and find something.Any GM that does this should be reported as the guide specifically says to not lose out on loot due to good gaming.
By that level, PCs should have learned to look inside pit traps for loot. It's a common occurrence.
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Adding to the traps (I recently ran into) remembered.
A trap with a negative energy stat drain and a curse (a pretty interesting one) that allows the BBEG multiple rounds of buffing. (PFS Scenario)
A trap that makes use of a consumable (multiple copies of same consumable) that could be used in combat by party or sold as part of loot. (PFS Sanctioned Module)
If that last one is the one I think it is, it is also more damage than anyone but a PC with Evasion (Improved Evasion?) that makes their save can handle.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Nope not [REDACTED], which has one but it isn't nearly that bad.
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Having a trapfinder is kinda like having a dedicated healer. No one usually complains when you bring one along, but they can also usually manage without one, it just takes more resources from everyone. It can get a bit annoying if the trapfinding character wants to roll triple checks every time see something new and it starts to slow the game down, but otherwise can be useful.
Taking 10 or 20 doesn't slow the game down. It only takes game time, not real time.
I just played my mostly-rogue trapfinder in Bonekeep, and that's how I handled it. Take 10 to glance around every room from the entrance to look for traps before going in, then take 20 to thoroughly search every room (not just for traps, but also for treasure and other secrets) once we were out of immediate danger.
We did go through more buff spells and wand charges that way, since buffs that last minutes per level had to be re-cast for every room, but we figured it was worth it, given the notorious reputation of that adventure.
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There are a small number of scenarios that reward players for bypassing a trap without triggering it, but they are admittedly few and far between. I love playing rogues and other trap-dealing characters, but there are a lot of players who just say, "Bah, I trip it and move on."yeah, I can recall as I was disarming a magic fire trap on a door, the barbarian player stated that he reached over my PC and opened the door - setting the trap off. The resulting fire distroyed two of the other players faction mission objectives... but, in the words of the Barbarian player "you were taking to long to open the door."
Such times are when the no PvP rule of PFS is sorely tested...
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Such times are when the no PvP rule of PFS is sorely tested...There are a small number of scenarios that reward players for bypassing a trap without triggering it, but they are admittedly few and far between. I love playing rogues and other trap-dealing characters, but there are a lot of players who just say, "Bah, I trip it and move on."yeah, I can recall as I was disarming a magic fire trap on a door, the barbarian player stated that he reached over my PC and opened the door - setting the trap off. The resulting fire distroyed two of the other players faction mission objectives... but, in the words of the Barbarian player "you were taking to long to open the door."
And when the Don't Be A Jerk rule is being ignored...
Hm ... all this kinda begs the question ... should traps have more significance?
We're running through Rappan Athuk right now (as in I'm running it and they're hitting all the traps :) ... they're having a blast, but I'm pretty darn sure they'll be taking some ranks in Disable Device next time they level up (and lamenting the fact that nobody in the group has Disable Device as a class skill).
So I guess a better question would be "does anyone think traps should play a larger role in PFS than they currently do?"
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During a Convention I took my Rogue through a 13th level Module that turned out to be pretty trap heavy. The GM told me afterwards that he had looked forward to springing interesting magical traps on our party, some of which would summon high CR monsters for us to fight. But I literally couldn't fail to either perceive or disable any of them. We were originally scheduled to play 3 slots, but thanks to my Trapfinding we finished in just 2.
The Gnome Alchemist of the party started getting rather bored (in-character) after we breezed through a few traps, and so wanted to try disabling one for himself. After triggering something like an Empowered Horrid Wilting, he left the rest of the traps up to me.
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I never Take 10 (and I'm not sure it's even an option with the Trap Spotter Rogue Talent). But now that my Rogue's +49 on Perception, and +40 on Disable, it doesn't usually matter what I roll.
Hopefully Tomb of the Iron Medusa will have some challenging traps.
I have an Urban Ranger that's also built for disabling traps, but since he doesn't have Trap Spotter he's more apt to miss them.
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The problem there is the extreme disparity in skills. In PFS you might have a dedicated trap character in your group and you might note. If you design traps to be challenging for the dedicated guy the group without one won't have a chance and if you design for the other group he'll pick up every one without trouble.
Which implies that the most balanced route are the alarm style traps that make the boss ready for you. Disabling the trap simply makes the fight much easier. :P
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Kinevon: Exactly that one. And we weren't even able to run away.
Fromper: Yeah, but sometimes its not taking 10 or 20, it's (more than one) player(s) wanting to roll (and double/triple checking) for everything new they see (door, chest, area) with only moderately good Perception. This usually tends to happen when one previous trap has been encountred and triggered, and everyone gets a tad paranoid. This would not be a problem if there also weren't people at the table who are of the school of thought that traps are only a resourse drain, nothing serious, and tend to get annoyed with the constant checking.
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Kinevon: Exactly that one. And we weren't even able to run away.
Fromper: Yeah, but sometimes its not taking 10 or 20, it's (more than one) player(s) wanting to roll (and double/triple checking) for everything new they see (door, chest, area) with only moderately good Perception. This usually tends to happen when one previous trap has been encountred and triggered, and everyone gets a tad paranoid. This would not be a problem if there also weren't people at the table who are of the school of thought that traps are only a resourse drain, nothing serious, and tend to get annoyed with the constant checking.
Hey, I remember that [spoiler]. What a way to go! And all because we couldn't roll higher than 6 after opening it.
That said, I can only recall one instance of triple-checking: Wonders in the weave: part II. And there the argument against such behaviour was about it taking actual gaming time what with the constant back'n'forth between the gm and trapfinders.
This was before I started to push the idea of just making one check per area/corridor/etc and applying modifiers. These days there's no separate schools of thought, I find.
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Pick up some Eyes of the Eagle and you should be fine. Just keep max ranks in Perception on top of that.
Well, my Rogue has a 12 or so Wisdom, max ranks in Perception, and Trapfinding for a +3 to find traps, along with the Canny Observer rogue talent, which gives a +4 bonus for overhearing conversations, and finding concealed and secret things, which also explicitly mentions traps usually being among those things.
With this & that, I think his Perception for finding traps is something around +17 or so, and his Disable Device for traps, being based off of only a 14 Dex, is about +18.
But, apparently, playing out of tier in a 5-9, he had no serious problems, with Trap Spotter and his ranks and bonuses, finding and disarming the traps in that scenario. (He is human, and has been taking the human FCB for rogue, which is how he has an extra rogue talent)
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My guy is one level of Dawnflower Dervish Bard, 4 levels of Rogue, and 2 levels of Halfling Opportunist prestige class, so far. At level 7, he's got 10 wisdom, max ranks in perception, +2 racial bonus, and +2 Rogue Trap Finding, for a total of +14.
Taking 10, I have missed traps before, presumably with DCs around 25. Some of those were a level or two ago, when my bonus was slightly lower. I'll pick up those Eyes of the Eagle - that's a good item I never noticed before, and will get me to 29 on a take 10.
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