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Weird situation.
The druid in question has a Vermin companion, a giant spider. He knows there is an invisible enemy in the area, though the druid can't see him. The spider has tremorsense 60 ft.
1. As the spider *can* pinpoint the invisible enemy, can the druid order the spider to attack him even without knowing himself where he's at?
My initial thought is no, Handle Animal says the druid needs to point to/specify the target. However...
2. If the druid in question has scent, and was able to pinpoint the target himself (moving close enough), then could he point at the empty square and order the spider to attack that, knowing that the spider could still tell there was an enemy there?
Leaning more towards yes on this one.
Any thoughts would be most helpful :)
The spider doesn't know the druid can't see the target, as long as the druid knows that there is something there, can point in the right direction (within let's say a 90degree cone centered on the direction the druid selects), and as long as there are no more obvious targets in the area, then i see no reason why the spider wouldn't attack in the direction it's directed.
If the druid is too far off then it'll stand around looking confused and wondering why the druid isn't pointing a little further to the left...
I agree that the spider would attack. It is no different than when police send dogs after a hiding suspect.
What is the int of the spider? If it is - giving it a blanket attack with no paramiters is probably a bad idea.
If it is int 2 it is probably safe to assume it has a full grasp of its masters pack dynamics. Having it be told attack should be fine.
Int 1... I have no idea my friend has a lizard and its pretty dumb.
What is the int of the spider? If it is - giving it a blanket attack with no paramiters is probably a bad idea.
If it is int 2 it is probably safe to assume it has a full grasp of its masters pack dynamics. Having it be told attack should be fine.
Int 1... I have no idea my friend has a lizard and its pretty dumb.
....the point is moot. Vermin have no Int. That is probably why the number of tricks is so low- they are all bonus tricks (well, they get 1 trick on their own, but that is it)
Oddly, you can do the intelligence increasing trick at 4hd.
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Actually, in this case the spider has 1 Int (that's why it has more than a single trick).
I told him that if he could figure out a general region that he was in, then he could direct the spider. Basically option 2 above. So he'll spend a move action to sniff the direction, his other move action to move close enough to pinpoint, then free action to sic spider on him.
Just a note, if the spider has an Int of 1 then the spider should have a minimum of 5 tricks, not 3.
An Int of 1 gives it 3 tricks and level 4 druid (earliest level for a stat increase) gives it 2 bonus tricks.
Regarding pinpointing, that should not be necessary. Using a move action to figure out the direction and then pointing the spider in that direction should be sufficient for the spider to attack the first creature along that line it finds.
If, however, there are other creatures along that line then yes, the specific square would need to be pinpointed.
The first ability score boost I give to EVERY animal companion is INT. Gets it (usually) to a 3.
Opens up a whole crazy range of feats and abilities. (Functions about as well as a three year old at following directions)
But as far as the OP is concerned, ordering the critter to attack would mean it would attack any enemies it could perceive. (If the invisible foe is flying... the spider would be unable to sense it, but if still on the ground, all bets are off.)
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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Just a headsup... There is nothing in the rules that prevents a spider that has been ordered to attack to find it's own target. The owner MAY direct it if he so wishes, but if there aren't any other enemies the spider would automatically attack the invisible creature (assuming the invisible creature can be percieved as a threat). Of course if the invisible creature has a type that the attack trick doesn't let it attack then this doesn't work... But if that was the case, then directing it wouldn't help either.
Well, you could direct it to attack an unnatural creature, you would just have to "push" the AC to do so.
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I agree with the intent of most of these responses. The initial confusion, for what it's worth, came from this:
"Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks."
As stated, for the attack trick to work, you need to be able to point at a target. I do agree that some creatures can "see" invisible creatures and a druid who can pinpoint a location should be able to direct it, but by pure RAW (not always the best), you need to be able to point at the creature.
Not saying I agree, just saying why the thread was initially started. :)
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I'm not sure I agree with that line of reasoning. I interpreted it as you "may" point to a creature to attack, or you "may not" and it won't attack.
Otherwise, if it's just an option, then logic follows that your creature can choose to always attack everything willy-nilly, even without a command. Having it only attack on command and to targets you designate is the entire point of the trick, to prevent it from rampaging around a town.
Again, going by just RAW here. I do agree that the druid in question should be able to (and in fact was able to) designate an area where he knows an enemy is at, one that his spider can sense, and have it work. Just arguing semantics at this point, my main question was answered.
Karui Kage,
You could look at it from the point of summon monster. With summon monster you cannot direct the creature to attack specific creatures unless you can communicate with it.
So while summoned creatures attack any enemy (unless you can direct them otherwise) Handle Animal allows you to direct an animal to attack a specific creature if you can point it out.
In other words, the "may" is giving you permission to attack a specific creature, not limiting how you can direct it to attack enemies.
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I always thought of summons a little differently. They had an innate understanding of your enemies, communication or not, and thus could charge in and fight effectively.
Handle Animal/trained pets, on the other hand, are trained to attack who you direct. Otherwise they'd attack whoever they wanted, like a wild animal. They don't have the "connection" that a summoned animal does.
Personally, I think the text is to indicate that a trained combat animal won't attack something unless you direct it to. That's how it's able to avoid attacking new people you meet, even if they may be threatening. It's trained to hold until you command it.
The pointing at a target thing, as I said earlier, can likely be looked past with certain circumstances (tremorsense, etc.), I only quoted it to explain how this issue first arose, not to get into an argument about "may" and "may not". :)
As before, thanks again for the help.
Karui Kage,
Summons may be able to charge in and fight effectively but they have no way of knowing to attack enemy "B" instead of enemy "A".
Unless you have a means of communicating with them you cannot direct them to attack a specific target. You cannot tell them to switch enemies. You cannot tell them to cease attacking.
They basically go for the closest enemy and attack that creature until dead and then move to the next closest enemy.
When contrasting Handle Animal with how Summons are ran it is pretty clear that the wording is enabling you to tell the animal to do more than just 'attack my enemies'. It is enabling you to tell the summoned creature to 'attack this specific enemy'.
BTW, Handle Animal is a means to control summoned animals to attack specific targets, something you cannot normally have them do.
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Gauss,
The difference I called out is that summons, being magically summoned, seem to have some knowledge of who your enemies are. Otherwise, they would attack your allies, right?
Animals, normal everyday animals like would be used with Handle Animal, don't have a necessary knowledge on who is your friend and who is your foe. If "Attack" also doesn't imply "Don't attack unless I point", then you risk your animal charging at any new person you meet.
Attack party members? Probably not if the AC has spent enough time with them. But Attack *needs* to also infer that they won't attack without your command on a specific target. Can you imagine the druid who can't enter towns or use diplomacy on anyone because his lion keeps charging?
"We were planning on attacking them-"
*GROWL*
"SIMBA NOT NOW."
Just an example.
Again, *I'M NOT HARD SET ON THIS*. Not sure if you guys saw my above responses, but I ruled for my own game that the druid could point at a specific area that he could smell the enemy in, and the spider with tremorsense could attack.
Would I have let him do that with a creature that had no way to sense invisible creatures though? Probably not. :)
I think of it like this:
"Sic 'em!" Your animal companion tears off and attacks the nearest creature that isn't an ally.
"Get that one!" You point at the wizard in the backfield, and your animal companion does its best to engage that target.
If the OP's character knows that there is something nearby (Enemy just suddenly vanished) It would be totally within reason to have the spider hunt it down.
My $.02
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
To rehash a bit of what I said earlier. The druid should be able to just say kill. The animal can then just act on its own cogisance about what the dm feelsbit would recognize.
Just use int as a guideline. When dealing with visible targets you can probly assume any animal can identify hostile body language regardless of int int.
When dealing with invisible opponents I would assume any 2 int animal or any 1 int animal that has innate pack understanding (though I can't think of any) should grasp all the party members are not the intended target.
However its my opinion a - int creature probly has no grasp of the druids allies or friends you don't ever want one using its own decision making.
As I wrote this though you could ensure an ant bee or wasp companion. Never sees your party members as food.
Really this is all subject give opinion but I think most of it is reasonable.
As a seperate issue I wanted to mention we can't use the summon monster rules to suggest how an animal companion will act.
The primary reason for this is every player group I have seen plays with a rules paradigm that summon monsters telepathicly know who your enemies are.
Summon monster says it attacks your enemies to the best of its abilities. But neither summon monster or the summoning rules convey this info.
However animal companions are not subject to this play paradigm they don't magically know who your enemies are. Which is why I suggested the guidelines for int above.
The weird thing is int 1 animals are the only ones I don't have an innate feel for how they should act. The only one I have exposure ro in to (my friends frilled lizard make) is pretty abismally stupid.
Thinking about it now, I do believe that the distrust of spiders that I harbor in my heart tells me that the spider would take the vague attack order against an enemy you can't see, and then use that opportunity to eat the party halfling.
I can actually think of very few vermin AC's that I would trust to not do that (Giants Wasps? Praying Mantises?! Come on now. Be serious)