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Usually on these boards we discuss how to handle optimized/min-maxed/OP characters and their players. I'd like to turn the discussion to approaches to helping those players with sub-optimal builds that actually make combats more difficult.
While I understand there's no wrongbadfun in designing and playing a character you enjoy, just a like hyperoptimizer can hog the spotlight by finishing combat almost solo, a suboptimizer can drag combats out and drain the party of limited resources. Just like you might ask a min-maxer in a side conversation to possibly tone it down, have you ever (or would you ever) let a player know they could tweak their build or concept to be less of a liability?
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When my Cad/Daredevil first started out, I got that a little bit. They felt that "Derring-Do" wasn't doing enough. They wanted more hit and damage via Inspire Courage, not extra Reflex, Dex Check bonus, and AC.
And the fact I was optimizing him to make great (And often humorous) use of the Dirty Tricks Combat Maneuver, It was turning players off that I wasn't dealing lethal damage. "Why don't you just be a regular Bard?" Someone asked me.
However, once I started blinding and sickening things left and right, and using my spells to save, heal, and buff attack rolls, people began to warm up to him. But it wasn't until character Level 5 that he began to really meld into the support role I had envisioned him in.
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That being said:
If they are under character level 4, My recommendation is to talk to the player after the game and ask what their intentions are for their character. Perhaps they have a character sheet to the side that has a copy of the envisioned character at level 6 or 7, and their vision for their character just hasn't come to fruition yet.
But if they are character level 4 or 5 and still seeming to drag the party, it's probably a good idea to politely step in with suggestions. After the game, of course.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Usually on these boards we discuss how to handle optimized/min-maxed/OP characters and their players. I'd like to turn the discussion to approaches to helping those players with sub-optimal builds that actually make combats more difficult.
In theory, shouldn't the "approaches" be the same ones advocated for the other side of the coin? Perhaps the thing more worth examining is approximately where that line is between "merely not optimal" and "actual liability that merits intervention"? (Much like determining the line between "merely powerful" and "actual over-optimization that merits intervention".)
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As someone who has no idea how to optimize, I honestly hope that if people in my local group find my PFS character to be a liability, they will tell me.
So, communication. I think that that's the first step.
Some people don't know that their characters are underpowered, and depending on their experience with Pathfinder, might think that the level of difficulty they are experiencing is normal.
Try just talking to them, discussing their characters and how to improve them. Maybe even try offering to look over their character sheets and give advice. It may seem unsolicited to you, but many people appreciate new ideas.
I mean, I personally feel awkward asking others to look over my characters, but the few times that people have offered to do so (without being asked) were very helpful.
(I mean, without them, I still wouldn't know what feat progression to use on my rogue.)
Giving friendly advice is always a good idea.
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Hmmm... Now I'm sitting here wondering if Sammy's motivation to start this thread has anything to do with the high body count at the table he GMed last night. I was playing at a different table, so I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I heard only 1 out of 6 PCs escaped the Storval Stairs alive.
Well, it was a 5-top, but if you want to credit me with an extra body, I'll take it ;)
While Storval Stairs is a known meatgrinder, the issues I refer to would have appeared in any 7-11 scenario with solidly built combats.
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For some reason, I thought you had 6 at your table. I know who some of your players were, but I don't remember everyone you had with you.
Were you running the higher tier with a mixed level group? Based on the signups, I had the feeling you'd end up running tier 10-11 with at least one level 7 PC, which could be bad, especially in that adventure. I haven't played it, but I know it's reputation. There's a reason I signed up to play something different last night. :P
Can you go into detail about the types of issues that came up?
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Does that really belong in this thread?
I'm not trying to turn this into gossip about specific players or something. I'm just thinking of last night's game as an obvious example, but issues from other sessions could be used as examples, too.
I just think that knowing what kinds of problems he's talking about could help with the advice giving. Is it poorly built PCs that just don't do enough damage or have useful combat abilities beyond the low levels, or is it more about just bad tactical play? And if so, just what kind of bad decisions are people making in the heat of battle?
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Is it poorly built PCs that just don't do enough damage or have useful combat abilities beyond the low levels, or is it more about just bad tactical play?
The way a person utilizes their character has far greater impact than what the build is. Some players approach the game with more situational awareness or specific tactical acumen than others and they can make the most out of whatever they have access to. Sure some classes or specific character builds are generally more efficient in a combat setting, in the hands of a player that doesn't understand all the abilities or have a good grasp of in game tactics they are kind of like giving a race car to a novice driver, they just won't get the most out of it.
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(sidesteps any discussion of my table last night)
As most folks here know, as you transition into higher tiers tactics or builds players relied on in lower tiers can prove suboptimal in higher tiers. While tactics and preparedness are easily addressed, character builds are a bit more of a personal issue and players may have tunnelvision about their character's contributions at the table.
@brigg, I have no problem with builds that need a few levels to come online as low tiers are much more forgiving (I've played a few slow starters myself). I'm speaking of L7+ characters.
@jiggy, I'm just putting this out there for general discussion to see if there are any tactics I can steal. Lord knows I steal enough good stuff from the other GMs as it is ;)
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Yeah, Sammy. I understand.
Yes, at level 7, they should have a good grasp on what their character can and can't do. If things like their damage output or action economy are sub-optimal, they should either address the issue by possibly retraining, or spending some of their gold on a Magical or Wondrous Item to better assist parties.
When that GM says "Roll Initiative", the player should be ready to have his or her first and second turns figured out based on the situation. If Initiative is rolled, and the player has no idea what to do, there could be a problem. But sometimes it could be as simple as having a Sword-and-board fighter face-to-face with a couple of incorporeals. Every situation is different.
And I totally agree with you on the "Tunnel Vision" and "Character building is a personal issue."
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Are they TRYING to be a liability? (or are they just the round peg in the square scenario? are they running a Social Neg. Channeling Cleric in a scenario full of mindless undead?)
I just had a thought about this: how come I never see the flip side of this asked when talking about someone "breaking" a scenario?
To use your cleric example, if he's a negative channeler who's also great at social skills but struggles to contribute in a scenario that's all-combat against undead (and maybe constructs, too) or otherwise hinders his abilities (like a single enemy with high HP not being too scared of a negative channeler), we all just say "Oh, the scenario just wasn't a good fit for him, not his fault, everything's fine, etc etc etc".
Yet when he goes into a scenario with lots of opportunity for social success and plenty of mook-heavy fights where his negative channeling nukes the board, how do we respond?
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If the problem is just a weak character build, sometimes the only answer is that the PC just isn't good enough for higher level play. I have seen builds that are just completely ineffective once you get past level 8 or 9. Sometimes, you just have to realize it's a lost cause and move on to the next PC, but not everyone's optimization-savvy enough to do that.
Sometimes, it may be that a build works only with certain types of parties. I have a couple of support builds that I won't bring to the table if other people are playing support builds.
But depending on the build, sometimes just picking up the right feat or a couple of magic items could make a big difference. That's when it's possible to give advice, but again, we'd have to know details to know what advice to recommend.
But the biggest issue is awareness. The first step in solving any problem is always realizing that there is a problem, followed by identifying exactly what the problem is.
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@lamontius, both.
Let's assume I have enough system mastery to help folks with their characters. I'd rather not talk about these characters in specific, but rather on the general thoughts on approaching (or not approaching) players underpowered combat builds (like 10-12 average damage round at L10) or tunnelvisioned tactics for their character concept.
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I strongly suggest that time is made for player and character introduction at the beginning of every scenario.
Pcs should ask ea other what can you do, what skills do you have and how you deal with certain things. Communication will help ea. other out.
Good time to find out strengths and weakness of party. Finding out the lvl 7 fighter has no range attack and a +1 sword with no spec material or oil of bless weapon, before you head out, would be a good time to discuss the difficulties our party could encounter. A nice way of encouraging a few purchases.
PFS is a group of up to 6 strangers sitting down to complete a scenario in 4 to 5 hrs with a couple of objectives. Cooporate is one of the big 3 as a pathfinder.
Perhaps a reason why there are uber optimized/min maxed builds out there, is due to their fear of having to make it through a scenario with other pcs that are "sub optimaly built"
Some scenarios require a good deal of knowledge skills or that 1 very important knowledge check. Some are combat heavy. Some require a good party mix. Difficult to know what you need. Always a chance the party will not be properly equipped for that scenario.
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You should only be able to count the times you falter completely in being useful to the party on one hand. Any past that, and reassessing what you do in situations, both combat and non-combat, should be the next step.
Personal experiences of me being almost useless and what I did about them include:
1. Large bipedal construct smacks the party around? = Wand of Grease!
2. Incorporeals? = Took Ghostbane Dirge at next level up.
3. Can't hit AC 30? = Ready action with a Wand of Gallant Inspiration to make sure the heavy hitters CAN break AC 30!
4. Can't Dirty Trick it? - See Solutions to 1 and 3!
My point is, faltering in battle should inspire the player to remedy the issue. By being stubborn and going into the aforementioned Tunnel Vision, you hurt yourself and the parties you play with.
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Two things there, Sammy.
For 'under-powered' builds, how are they going about spending the gold they have accrued?
For 'tunnel-vision' tactics, how specialized are their builds?
If the player response to a given situation that is out of their specialization is to throw up their hands, or to say 'well, someone else can handle this encounter', then yeah, that can be corrected by spending their gold more wisely and by getting a refresher in tactics such as Aid Another, Monster Knowledge checks, Fighting Defensively, etc.
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3. Can't hit AC 30? = Ready action with a Wand of Gallant Inspiration to make sure the heavy hitters CAN break AC 30!
I don't think this one works, unfortunately. Using a wand is always at least a standard action, even if the spell is usually a swift/immediate action. That means you can't interrupt someone's attack to hit them with Gallant Inspiration from a wand.
As for Sammy's question, I'm thinking the best approach is to talk to someone after the session is over, and start with, "I noticed your character doesn't do that much direct damage for this level of combat. Have you considered other approaches to helping the party in battle? You might want to consider ... "
You don't want to interrupt the game in the middle of a session, and you definitely need to be as polite as possible. But in the end, you have to tell them to their face that their build sucks, if you want them to realize it and do something about it.
As I said above, the first step in solving any problem is realizing that there is a problem. That applies to everything in life.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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For 'under-powered' builds, how are they going about spending the gold they have accrued?
Sometimes, they simply aren't. I've overheard players mention "Yeah, I don't really have anything I want to buy, so I've got XX,000gp sitting around."
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There are a lot of potential problems here that can all manifest as a PC underperforming:
Sub-optimal build - it's probably worth defining some of these terms. For me, a sub-optimal build means a build that is underperforming in its intended role (e.g., a damage dealer who deals relatively little damage)
Sub-optimal gear - this is somewhat rolled into the build, but also includes things like appropriate consumables
Sub-optimal tactics - this covers both generic tactics (providing flank, avoiding AoOs, etc.) and tactics specific to your build (casting defensively, casting then moving, etc.)
Situational tactics - this is where I'm throwing 'special' situations, like a front-liner playing up or you've been stripped of your gear or other unusual circumstances
If a character is underperforming due to build or gear issues, their inevitable death will leave them unable to bridge the gap due to resources spent on raising and removing negative levels. For that reason alone, I think this it's worth the risk of bruising the occasional ego to offer some friendly advice.
One aspect I've realized, at least with our local game days, is that low-level play does little to weed out these problems. Our low-level tables are usually packed with 6 or even 7 players. It's easy for an underperforming character or two to get carried in that environment. Nicer GMs have plenty of targets to spread the damage around rather than focusing on the one or two characters in melee.
They also encounter little in the way of multiple or iterative attacks, so they don't learn the importance of full attacks vs. standard attacks until it's almost too late.
Frankly, I'd love it if there were a 5 - 9 scenario that worked as a transitional version of the Confirmation. It could include an encounter where the NPCs are using effective (but non-lethal) tactics to teach the PCs a lesson or two. Maybe by failing they lose their 2nd prestige point but learn how to avoid a future TPK.
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For 'under-powered' builds, how are they going about spending the gold they have accrued?Sometimes, they simply aren't. I've overheard players mention "Yeah, I don't really have anything I want to buy, so I've got XX,000gp sitting around."
Yeah, that's kinda where I was going with that, Jiggy. I've seen players save for items that cost 20k or more, basically straight out of the gate. This is obviously a pretty specific case, though...
...whereas at the same time I've seen players who refuse to buy consumables or who don't look for purchases beyond their weapon, armor, cloak of resistance, etc.
Alchemical items, Wondrous items, mundane gear, ioun stones and more...all of these can add dimension and flexibility to a character, for minimal cost.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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3. Can't hit AC 30? = Ready action with a Wand of Gallant Inspiration to make sure the heavy hitters CAN break AC 30!I don't think this one works, unfortunately. Using a wand is always at least a standard action, even if the spell is usually a swift/immediate action. That means you can't interrupt someone's attack to hit them with Gallant Inspiration from a wand.
I believe you can ready any standard action, even if it comes from a wand.
And readied actions interrupt people's attacks.
Ready Action from the PRD:
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
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3. Can't hit AC 30? = Ready action with a Wand of Gallant Inspiration to make sure the heavy hitters CAN break AC 30!I don't think this one works, unfortunately. Using a wand is always at least a standard action, even if the spell is usually a swift/immediate action. That means you can't interrupt someone's attack to hit them with Gallant Inspiration from a wand.
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I've been thinking about this a bit lately. I have been GMing for some players that I'm starting to worry a bit about. A lot of them are new to pfs and I've been running a lot of old scenarios, which I see as being quite easy, but they often find challenging. I fear they're going to get a rude awakening when I start running newer material that tends to be a lot harder.
I'm thinking I'll do some thorough character audits next session. Give an opportunity to review their builds and make some suggestions.
Phone ate my response
Imho i feel like knowing and learning "tactics" can go alot further than just having a great build. Meaning a subpar character who knows and understands tactics such as when and where to flank, who to buff, etc etc will go farther and most likely survive better than someone who has a fantastic build but little understanding of tactics.
So basically to answer the question, first make sure they are using tactics fine and help them improve if not. Second if they have a subpar build it means points went somewhere else and show them how that class could use those other stats that are not considered useful for said character. Basically teach tactics and how to ay class better will go much farther than just knowing how to do an uber build by themselves.
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RND, I think he is not looking for ways to bring that underpowered PC up to Uberpowered PC, but to bring it up to where it is able to make a solid contribution at tier.
Playing a 7-11 with 4 mid-optimum PCs and Harsk, for instance. What can you do to help Harsk step up and provide to the table, rather than get a weak attack every turn?
For prepared casters, this is usually a fairly easy thing to do, just suggest some spells that might work better for them. Maybe burst of radiance instead of a DC 15 Charm Monster, or other spell substitutions, like party buffs in place of low DC attack spells.
For martials, it can be tougher. Especially if they are the frontline type, where their options are more limited by their current build. But, if they have a high AC, and a crappy damage roll, maybe they can make trips or disarms, and, with a high enough AC, they won't have to deal with getting hit on the AoO in return, if they don't have the feat chain.
For spontaneous casters, the answer, since they can't easily change their known spells, is either somethign like a Page of Spell Knowledge, or wands for things they can do when their regular spells just won't cut it.
Overall, the best thing to do is ask them leading questions if you can, about situations you know their PC has problems dealing with, and help them figure out a way to handle it.
But, in order to do that, you need to have an idea of what their PC is built to do, and what it struggles with.
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After some consideration, I think I will:
1) Approach the player(s) I regularly GM and have a good relationship with, ask about their newest low-level character and use that as segue into build discussions. Instead of discussing previous characters which are retired or near retirement and beyond rebuilding, we are discussing a character who has a full PFS career and building options...and hopefully steer the newest PC away from the faults of previous PCs without explicitly calling them out.
2) For the player(s) I don't generally GM or don't have a good relationship with, I will simply post a general message on our sign up boards about how the game is much tougher in higher tiers, give some general advice and offer to be a sounding board (along with any other FLGS regulars) if anyone has questions about their character. If someone approaches me or anyone else for advice, they would be more open to receiving constructive criticism versus being defensive when receiving advice, no matter how obliquely delivered.
#2 won't seem out the blue given we regularly post tips and tricks in our sign ups like:
As you level your character in Pathfinder, you should make sure they are properly prepared for challenges they will encounter! If you've never played high level PFS, or season 4 of PFS, you could be in for a shock. Here's a basic guide for things you should keep in mind:
LOW LEVELS (1-3)
-WEAPONS: Do you have both a ranged and a melee weapon? You don’t always choose the range at which you fight.
-HEALING: Do you have self-healing? A Wand of Cure Light Wounds only costs 2 Prestige Points and has 50 charges--even if you can’t use it, someone else probably can. DO NOT expect other party members to provide healing for you.
-DARKNESS: Do you have a way to see in the non-magical darkness? Whether it’s a torch, a sunrod, a light cantrip or just plain darkvision, you need to be able to see in unlit areas.
-DAMAGE REDUCTION: Do you have a backup weapon with a different damage type? Some monsters have DR that can only be overcome by slashing, piercing or blunt damage.
-SWARM/OOZES: Do you have anti-swarm weapons or anti-ooze options? Older seasons are notorious for swarms. Even a flask or two of Alchemist’s Fire, Acid Flask, etc. can make a difference.
-DID YOU KNOW: …that a knotted rope reduces a climb check to DC 5? Always have a rope handy!
MID LEVELS (4-7)
-HEALING: Do you have emergency self-healing? A single potion of Cure Moderate Moderate or Cure Serious Wounds can get you back in the fight…or keep you alive long enough to run away.
-DARKNESS: Do you have a way to counter magical darkness? An oil of Daylight or the ability to cast Daylight will help counter Deeper Darkness…very important as not even darkvision will penetrate supernatural darkness.
-DAMAGE REDUCTION: Monsters may have damage resistance that can only be overcome by cold iron/silver/adamantine. Oil of Bless Weapon or Align Weapon are helpful for alignment based DR.
-INVISIBLE/INCORPOREAL: Monsters with these abilities begin to appear. Glitterdust, Faerie Fire and See Invisibility are hard counters to invisibility. Archers should invest in the weapon blanch Ghost Salt for some of their arrows for incorporeal foes.
-DID YOU KNOW: …third level potions or oils such as Fly, Daylight, Remove Blindness, Water Breathing, Gaseous Form, etc. are only 2 PP away. While you can only make a 2 PP purchase once a scenario, you can slowly build up a cache of situational potions!
HIGH LEVELS (7+)
If you have out of combat healing, emergency combat healing and ways to counter darkness/DR/abilities, you are *generally* prepared for most combats at high level. Here are other things to be prepared for:
-FLYING: Melee characters need the ability (by potion, spell or item) to combat flyers that prefer to stay at range.
-GRAPPLING: Caster and ranged characters need options to avoid or escape grapples.
-DID YOU KNOW: …a level 1 Protection from Evil flat out prevents domination by an evil spellcaster. This is very important because it’s one thing when your friend’s MurderDeathKill Machine is attacking foes, it’s another thing when he fails his save against Dominate Person and attacks the party.
IN CLOSING
Be ready and be flexible!
and
PFS is a team game -- each week you'll sit down with 3-5 other characters and you will depend on each other to survive to the end of the scenario. Here are 3 simple questions to think about during character creation!
1) How does my character contribute in combat?
2) How else can they contribute in combat if they can't do #1?
3) How does my character contribute outside of combat?
1) How does my character contribute in combat?
Pretty straightforward: when diplomacy breaks down or you are beset by beasts, what do you do in combat? By default, your class or build will dictate your answer--melee will facesmash, ranged will pincushion and casters will buff/heal/OMFGWTFBBQ as needed. Odds are you will already know what will you do and how to do it well.
2) How else can they contribute in combat if they can't do #1?
In PFS, you don't always dictate the terms of the battle. If you melee, what are your options if you can't reach (or even hit) the monster? If you heal, what do you when no one needs healing? If you cast spells, what's your plan when your spells don't work or, worse yet, you're out of spells?
Don't end up hiding in back delaying every turn because you didn't have a back up plan. Every Pathfinder is needed in the fight!
3) How does my character contribute outside of combat?
By the very structure of scenarios, you are guaranteed 3-5 combats a scenario...however, very few scenarios are pure combat affairs. There will be socializing/investigating/role-playing and you don't want to be sidelined for a chunk of the game, unable to assist your party. Pick a skill (or two) that allows you to contribute in these situations. Traits are a good way to pick up skills to round out your character and give them out-of-combat options.
Examples:
MELEE McFIGHTERSON
1) Kills things dead with a big two-handed weapon.
2) Has a bow in case it's ranged combat. Has a shield if he needs to go toe-to-toe with something he can't really hurt but wants to keep from his weaker pals.
3) Drops a few points in Knowledge: Dungeoneering so he can help both in and out of combat with relevant checks.
HEALY McBUFFS-A-LOT
1) Buffs early in combat. Heals as needed during combat.
2) Uses high Intimidate skill to demoralize opponents when casting not needed.
3) Spends skill points on diplomacy and intimidate so he can be a party face.
SPELLY McSUMMONER
1) Summons monsters to do her dirty work
2) Has a longspear so she can attack from the second rank (or AID ANOTHER to give someone else +2 to hit).
3) Has ranks in various knowledges to be the party knowledge-monkey.
SNEAKY McSTABBINGTON
1) Flanks creatures for Sneak Attack damage and to provide +2 to her allies
2) Has a ranged or hard-hitting weapon to use when fighting enemies immune to precision damage
3) Has ranks in disable device and perception to help her party avoid deadly traps
Finally, being good at what you do is an important part of being a Pathfinder...but overspecialization can lead to you becoming dead weight in unfavorable conditions. Always have a backup plan!
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
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Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh
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I often post Painlord's post from four years ago for my players. It's still relevant and some still find it helpful.
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I've got a witch/wizard multiclass who is highly underpowered in combat. She's very squishy, doesn't really fling around many spells, and if hit will squish very quickly. However...
She has the Ward hex.
She has the healing hex.
She has the Fortune hex.
She has the ability to deliver touch spells through familiar.
She has at least a +13 in every knowledge if she's doing a test on the fly. If she has at least 1 min to do the test bring that up to a +15 and higher.