Hi everyone, I have a quick question about building mounted characters. On every thread to mounted combat I've ever seen, the accepted weapon for any mounted cavalier is a lance. Upon looking at this, I'm not sure why.
To charge with a lance requires a 15 feet charging lane, you have to move 10 feet and the lance adds another 5 feet from reach. That can get pretty unwieldy in combat. By contrast, something like a battleaxe requires only a 10 foot charging lane, and does at least as much damage. Presuming that you're a character with spirited charge, a battleaxe does 13.584 damage on a charge. By contrast, a lance does 14.106, a tiny difference. When you reach level 20 and charging damage gets multiplied again, battleaxes actually do more damage, 20.376 compared to a lance's 18.808.
So basically, it looks like the lance is barely better for most of your campaign, and at the cost of what appears to be some serious convenience. Am I missing something?
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I would say that you are missing 2 things.
1) Reach is an advantage, not a disadvantage as you are suggesting. You do require 5 feet of extra distance from the target to start, on the other hand, you can charge from a distance that is too far for someone without reach damage as well.
That's not the real advantage of reach however. The reason reach weapons are good is because a) They tend to provide you with more attacks of opportunity (twice as many threatened squares and anyone trying to get close to you provokes)
and b) They provide a tactical advantage when fighting with allies who also use melee weapons. (More can surround a single enemy)
2) Your math (which I'm assuming includes critical damage for those extra decimal points) is way off since you only include base damage.
Extending damage numbers while ignoring bonuses to damage is meaningless.
Consider a conservative bonus of +20 to damage at level 20. What do the numbers look like then? Heck, consider a moderate +5 to damage when you first get spirited charge...
Hope that answers your question.
I would say that you are missing 2 things.
1) Reach is an advantage, not a disadvantage as you are suggesting. You do require 5 feet of extra distance from the target to start, on the other hand, you can charge from a distance that is too far for someone without reach damage as well.
That's not the real advantage of reach however. The reason reach weapons are good is because a) They tend to provide you with more attacks of opportunity (twice as many threatened squares and anyone trying to get close to you provokes)
and b) They provide a tactical advantage when fighting with allies who also use melee weapons. (More can surround a single enemy)
2) Your math (which I'm assuming includes critical damage for those extra decimal points) is way off since you only include base damage.
Extending damage numbers while ignoring bonuses to damage is meaningless.
Consider a conservative bonus of +20 to damage at level 20. What do the numbers look like then? Heck, consider a moderate +5 to damage when you first get spirited charge...
Hope that answers your question.
That did, thank you very much. As someone fairly new to the game, not being able to hit someone next to you seemed like a disadvantage, I hadn't thought of the benefits. Thank you for pointing out the other modifiers for damage. I just used base damage multiplied by whatever number it was, I didn't think about other bonuses.
I really appreciate your response, it definitely helped me better understand the topic.
Maybe derailing slightly but still on the topic of mounted combat.
How do you make it practical and worthwhile for non-mount centered classes like the cavalier or paladin.
Unless your mount levels with you (which I've seen nothing stating that it does) it is going to be consistently destroyed by anything you fight past 3rd or 4th level.
There is of course the mounted combat feat, but that only does so much. Sure you can glance off blows, but one or two effective hits would probably kill it it.
You are absolutely right that a vanilla warhorse (or other mount) is simply not viable after low level.
There are a few options for non Paladins/Cavaliers though:
1) Oracles, Rangers, Clerics and Druids can all get animal companions. Choose a viable mount.
2) Summoners of course can have a mount easy too.
3) Other classes can use the "Leadership" feat to make a mount if that feat is allowed by the GM
4) You can potentially permanently alter a familiar to a mount with a polymorph any object spell. This of course is level dependent.
5) Use magic items as mounts. Certain Figurines of Wondrous Power are obvious choices.
6) Use summoning to create replaceable mounts. The obvious choice is phantom steed which provides both long duration and great speed. If you are playing a non-caster, that means either a wand (with use magic device) or a friendly party member who is also a caster.
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Maybe derailing slightly but still on the topic of mounted combat.
How do you make it practical and worthwhile for non-mount centered classes like the cavalier or paladin.
Unless your mount levels with you (which I've seen nothing stating that it does) it is going to be consistently destroyed by anything you fight past 3rd or 4th level.
There is of course the mounted combat feat, but that only does so much. Sure you can glance off blows, but one or two effective hits would probably kill it it.
Treantmonk did a good job of listing the possibilities. The reality is that, unless it's some kind of ultimate paragon of its species or empowered by a bond to an adventurer, no horse is going to last out the first couple levels of play. For characters who don't have animal companions like the Cavalier, or an array of special mount-improving powers like the Sohei, you need to keep buying or raising better mounts. Purchase or raise an elephant, gryphon, pegasus, or some kind of creature that both provides additional movement options and has increased survivability.
The other option is to acquire an animal companion via the Nature's Ally feat from the Animal Archive. For two feats you can unlock a Ranger animal companion, which you can use to acquire a horse who'll progress as an animal companion using your character level -3 as your druid level. For one more feat, Boon Companion, you can remove the -3 and have a full progression animal companion. This is a really good option for a Fighter archetype like the Dragoon, who has a lot of mounted combat abilities and extra feats.
To the OP: Between weapon reach, your mount's melee reach, and your mount's increased size, a mounted combatant with a reach weapon can control a lot of the battlefield. Between the extended coverage and the massive damage amplification the lance grants (by 20th level a lance's additional damage multiplier can account for 80+ additional points of damage; even at 1st level it's easily an extra 8+ points of damage, which can end encounters), it's probably the best weapon choice you can make for mounted combat, unless you're choosing a highly specialized build that absolutely requires a different weapon.
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If I recall correctly from the mounted combat section of the combat rules. The rider counts as charging as long as the mount is charging in the same round. So the 15 foot reach could get charge bonuses off if your mount is charging from 10ft away. But that is probably super rules lawyering it. The harder thing to adjudicate at the table in pfs is how to treat bullrush attempts on a mounted character. Since there is a specific feat required to kick a rider off his mount called unseat it would seem that bullrushing a mounted character would mean bull rushing the pair. Or be applyed to the DC 5 ride check to stay in the saddle. The former. Has a little more rules backing than the latter.
Sorry if it seemed incoherent my phone adds random punctuation.
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If I recall correctly from the mounted combat section of the combat rules. The rider counts as charging as long as the mount is charging in the same round. So the 15 foot reach could get charge bonuses off if your mount is charging from 10ft away. But that is probably super rules lawyering it. The harder thing to adjudicate at the table in pfs is how to treat bullrush attempts on a mounted character. Since there is a specific feat required to kick a rider off his mount called unseat it would seem that bullrushing a mounted character would mean bull rushing the pair. Or be applyed to the DC 5 ride check to stay in the saddle. The former. Has a little more rules backing than the latter.
Sorry if it seemed incoherent my phone adds random punctuation.
The mount and rider are two separate creatures, with a couple specialized rules exceptions. The main things to remember are:
For it to be a "mounted charge" and provide the rider his charge bonus and amplified damage, both mount and rider must spend the charge action, typically a full round action for both of them.
The mount moves on the rider's initiative as he directs, using its own action to do so.
The second one can be nice because it opens up more tactical options for the player; if you have to move up to approach an enemy but don't have a direct path for a charge you can utilize your move action to drink a potion, swap to a more appropriate weapon (may require Quickdraw), etc. while your mount approaches the enemy, and then still have enough action economy on hand to perform a Vital Strike or other standard action attack.