Hello:
I have a 9th level wizard who will probably pick up fabricate spell.
Readind the forums, i did not see any specific recipies, so i want to suggest one and see if its legal.
Converting iron to chains
Density of iron 7.87 g·cm−3 491.308 lb/ft^3
Pathfinder chain (10ft) 10 ft
Cost 30 gp
Weight 2 lbs
trade good
Iron 1lb 0.1 gp
Conversion of 1 ton of iron to chain
ton 2000 lb Cubic feet 4.0707662
chain 2 lbs/10 feet
converted 10000 feet of chain
Normal price 30000 gp
Instant sale price 15000
cost of iron 200 gp
profit 14800 gp
"@ 9th level"
2.210886
converted 22108.86 feet of chain
Normal price 66326.58 gp
Instant sale price 33163.29
cost of iron 442.17 gp
profit 32721.1 gp
Any reason RAW that this will not work? Its an attempt to be less cheesy than some of the other discussions i have seen. Its also assuming that a DM would consider metal a "mineral" so its limted to the 1 ft^3/level.
VR
I'd approach you as a GM and say that I won't permit large scale selling; due to people not buying enough to make it worth the time.
My goal would be to resist the access to "Infinite Money".
I've had to do it to Blood Money + Masterwork transformation + Lesser Restoration. Infinite money unhinges the WBL system, which screws up CR expectations, which with those two out of place, nukes regularing challenge and experience gain.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Would it work? Sure, why not.
But you need someone to buy all those chains. Is there someone who really needs 4 miles of standard chain?
People will want shorter segments. People will want smaller/bigger size of links (I want it big enough to hold a castle; small enough for a fine necklace). Someone will have to cut it. What do you do with the rest of the unsold chain? Do the economics of supply/demand cause a crash in chain prices? Never mind the local chain making blacksmiths who's out of the job.
What would most likely happen is that a customer will want a specific length/size of chains, and each customer will require an individual casting. The leftover material being used for the next casting. So though the potential of 32000gp profit is there, it will be spread over a loooooong time.
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)Hello:
I have a 9th level wizard who will probably pick up fabricate spell.
Readind the forums, i did not see any specific recipies, so i want to suggest one and see if its legal.Converting iron to chains
Density of iron 7.87 g·cm−3 491.308 lb/ft^3
Pathfinder chain (10ft) 10 ft
Cost 30 gp
Weight 2 lbs
...
Any reason RAW that this will not work? Its an attempt to be less cheesy than some of the other discussions i have seen. Its also assuming that a DM would consider metal a "mineral" so its limted to the 1 ft^3/level.
VR
9th level * 1 ft^3/level & 491.308 lb/ft^3 = 4421.772 lbs.
As chain at 30 gp / 2 lbs, you then have a value of 66326.58, sell for 33163.29. Here is the key part: it cost 1/3 of 66326.58 (22108.86) to make. That means a profit of 11054.43.
This assumes you can sell the chain. GM is well within his rights to say there is not enough demand for you to sell all of it. Also, as GM *I* would require a craft check to see if the chain is of sufficient quality to be anything other than decorative. May be easy to pass, but still possible to fail. [Can also get past by casting again to redo.] I would likewise point out that weight is key for encumbrance and not real weight. This can go both ways, but it is why the Mithral Chain Shirt is 10# and not 12.5#.
This is one of the oldest money making schemes, but usually using Wall of Iron for free iron, since the GM can limit availability of trade iron. Fabricating forests to make wooden poles is another. The Lyre of Building is another way. Basically, it is breaking the game by creating instant wealth. OK when used to further the plot, but not OK if used to provide money to equip the character more.
It is legal by RAW, but RAI is less so based on how it affects the game. Creating a bridge / building is fine, since you can't take it with you. Creating instant wealth you give to the needy is probably OK. Being greedy causes problems.
/cevah
If you can do it, others can do it, and the game world has had established chain markets long before you've been born. They can do everything you can do, and already have the trade deals in place and have more wizards than you do to beat your supply
Thanks to all those that replied.
I was concerned about undersatanding the wording of the spell.
To thouse who it says it wont work becuase of "economics" i would challange you to deny it would work becuase of econmics fail to understand that this is one of the most glaring issues with PF.
(and to an extent 3.5, 3.0, 2.0. 1).
I got the price of the iron from the PRD as 0.1gp/lb.
And how many wizards are there out there of 9th level or more in the world?
Thank
And how many wizards are there out there of 9th level or more in the world?
Enough that you wouldn't have been the first to think of this or tried to do it.
By the rules as written, yes you could make this much chain and try to sell it. What you don't get to do, is tell a GM whether or not you do sell it all. Or, over what time frame.
No reasonably intelligent GM should allow this to work the way you want it to. Pathfinder does no simulate economics well, and the game breaks down when you attempt to find loopholes as you've done.
Is that what you really want to hear?
Nope, just legal, non-abusive, profitable uses of fabricate.
I would love to have supply and demand be part of the game.
So is this better:
Using fabricate to make artwork out of stone blocks? As in marble or granite?
Nope, just legal, non-abusive, profitable uses of fabricate.
I would love to have supply and demand be part of the game.
So is this better:
Using fabricate to make artwork out of stone blocks? As in marble or granite?
I would consider it non-abusive if you use it to make something and don't attempt to sell it. Any attempt to profit is abuse.*
You want to make statues to fill your mansion? Go ahead.
You want to make statues and sell them on the market? No one has heard of you, and without ranks in Craft(sculpture) you make a shoddy worthless statue and no one is interested in it.
Also, supply and demand is a part of the game. It's a part of the game left up to the GM to make happen. Paizo didn't write rules for it because they like to allow GMs leeway to do as they see fit.
Not everything needs to have a rule written for it.
*Unless the party is broke and destitute and needs to raise money for something important, and there is only limited fabrication to enable a purchase to continue the plot moving. Not as a means to grant one character greater wealth by level than others.
And if the character does have ranks in craft(sculpture) or craft(jewlery) would that be better?
And at that point, isin't the DM metagamming?
Treasure found in the evil dungeon, thats okay to sell, but treasure you generate through a spell is bad?
So in all seriousness, what sort of pricing would be necessary for the value of DC 15 or 20, linear, logarithmic?
And if the character does have ranks in craft(sculpture) or craft(jewlery) would that be better?
And at that point, isin't the DM metagamming?
Treasure found in the evil dungeon, thats okay to sell, but treasure you generate through a spell is bad?So in all seriousness, what sort of pricing would be necessary for the value of DC 15 or 20, linear, logarithmic?
You're not going to get anywhere with the argument with me. You're looking for justification to abuse the game, and I wont give it to you. Ever.
Wealth is equal to power to power in this game, and allowing one PC to have more vastly wealth than others creates a serious imbalance that generally ruins the fun of others in the game. It's not acceptable. At a certain point a player who persisted on this sort of thing would simply get booted from my game.
Also, it is the DMs job to metagame.
Any reason RAW that this will not work? Its an attempt to be less cheesy than some of the other discussions i have seen. Its also assuming that a DM would consider metal a "mineral" so its limted to the 1 ft^3/level.
VR
Again every one who invokes RAW to fuel instant money schemes always asks " any reason this won't work?", when they forget that the real question should be "What reason is there that it SHOULD?". You forget about the expense to get the iron in the first place, and they also forget that RAW doesn't mandate that customers materialize out of the ether, just because you've got a ton of product to sell.
The RAW text of rules is designed to facilitate adventure role-play. Swords and Sorcery, not Papers and Paychecks. The instant you deviate from this formula, you're in firmly in house rule territory.
I explicitly included the cost of the iron, i got that from the PRD as 0.1gp/lb.
I'm trying to use fabricate as i thought it was intended, as a time saver. Using a black smith to create chains from iron is not unususal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And if the character does have ranks in craft(sculpture) or craft(jewlery) would that be better?
And at that point, isin't the DM metagamming?
Treasure found in the evil dungeon, thats okay to sell, but treasure you generate through a spell is bad?So in all seriousness, what sort of pricing would be necessary for the value of DC 15 or 20, linear, logarithmic?
You're not going to get anywhere with the argument with me. You're looking for justification to abuse the game, and I wont give it to you. Ever.
Wealth is equal to power to power in this game, and allowing one PC to have more vastly wealth than others creates a serious imbalance that generally ruins the fun of others in the game. It's not acceptable. At a certain point a player who persisted on this sort of thing would simply get booted from my game.
Also, it is the DMs job to metagame.
Sir:
First off, i have asked my DM if there are any spells that he does not want me to use. I acknoledge that he/she has the authority to implement rule "0".
Second i am not trying to game the system. The spell exists. Not using it is house rulling.
Third I did not mention using any of the "tricks" i have seen in my research on fabricate, no blood maigc or any thing else. I am just looking for non-disruptive ways of using the spell.
If you want to ban the spell, housrule it and move on.
If you have positive ways to use the spell, please let me know. Its not a spell that i have had a lot of experience with.
Thank you for your time.
Sir:
First off, i have asked my DM if there are any spells that he does not want me to use. I acknoledge that he/she has the authority to implement rule "0".
Second i am not trying to game the system. The spell exists. Not using it is house rulling.
Third I did not mention using any of the "tricks" i have seen in my research on fabricate, no blood maigc or any thing else. I am just looking for non-disruptive ways of using the spell.
If you want to ban the spell, housrule it and move on.
If you have positive ways to use the spell, please let me know. Its not a spell that i have had a lot of experience with.
Thank you for your time.
Just because you ask your GM if there any spells he doesn't want you to use doesn't mean that he immediately anticipates all potential abuses of spells.
No one said you shouldn't use the spell. I was saying you shouldn't abuse the spell to make money. That is gaming the system.
Not using the "tricks" as you're calling doesn't make it any less abusive or "gaming" of the system. It only means that your profit margin each time you do this is less than those who use blood money or wall of iron.
Non-disruptive ways of using this spell include anything that doesn't become a money making scheme.
Positive ways to use the spell:
1) A towns bridge has washed out. You happen by and use the spell and some wood they provide to create the bridge in just a few minutes (or days depending on size) compared to the weeks or months it may have taken them
2) You need a desk to work at? Fabricate
3) You decide you want custom sculptures of a solar riding a tarrasque.
4) Your fighter friend would like a set of mithral armor, but doesn't want to pay the full price, or wait to have it crafted. He buys the raw materials and hands it to you and you whip it up for him.
5) You're out in the wilderness and need to make a campsite to protect the party and some innocent people. Your fighter chops down some trees and you turn it into a palisade.
6) Pretty much anything that doesn't involve trying to turn fabricate into a long term revenue stream.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
@Franko a:
What you ask for is legal RAW, and RAI. It is still a bad idea to use for getting rich. Here is why:
PF is a game of adventure, where the balance defined for play is WBL. When you bring in free money, however legal, you tip the balance. This causes a game to go Monte Hall, and beyond. When you use your expensive magic items to overrun even epic encounters with ease, you have lost the "fun" for everyone, since it is no longer a real danger or challenge.
In my last post, I explained how free money can be used without breaking the game: advancing the plot. If you use it to make your character more powerful, you upset the balance. Some GMs will reduce the party loot available by adventuring to compensate. Others throw harder challenges. Still others change the game by banning the spell. None of these outcomes are desirable, and are all because someone not only found an exploit, but also used it. If instead, you advance the plot, your character is no more powerful due to excess wealth, and the challenge remains. The same problem happens when only part of the party is heavily optimized while the other half is not. The difference in effectiveness causes less fun at the table. If the heavily optimized characters don't hold back, everyone looses. How much disparity can you have? Depends on the GM and other players. Too much and the fun goes out. This balance is a three way thing: you -- the other players -- the challenges your level rates. Small imbalances can be handled. Large ones cause the whole thing to fail.
/cevah
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here is an easy solution to keep the game from breaking:
Allow this sort of magical economic activity, but only allow it to purchase things that are not adventuring equipment.
So, yes, you can make 4 miles of chain, but only the crown has use for that much chain, and while they won't pay you in coin, they will give you a galley (or some other property) for your trouble.
Now the character has a ship, which is sweet, but it doesn't make him more combat effective, what it does is give him a "perk" to use in game.
Now obviously the character can sell the property, but he's back in the same problem - he has to find a buyer, and because he's not a noble or well-connected merchant, each time he sells his property, he get's 1/2 price.
On the other hand if he decides to KEEP the property, it becomes something that bad guys can attack.
Now at the gaming table, it works like this: The player and the GM have a gentleman's agreement that the character can use his superpowers to make money but that he cannot spend the money on adventuring equipment. So he can have an estate, but it doesn't really mater as a "WBL" issue, because it's not "combat effective" money, it's only "plot-line" effective money.
'nother fun ploy: instead of making money, just make political capital. I mean if you're like me you're playing a good character, or at least not a stupid chaotic evil one. The smart play in any town you want good rep in is taking 2 or 3 days with all your Fabricate (and other spells) to make the town a better place. Fix the leaky roof in the town church and give the town militia some DECENT armor instead of that piecemeal crap they're stuck with. Maybe you sell some of it, but you sell it on the cheap to make people remember how nice you were.
Some murderhobos are remembered by the tavern they burned, some murderhobos are remembered by the monsters they killed, but SOME murderhobos are remembered by the defenses they gave the town to protect itself from other murderhobos.
Now THAT is an excellent idea.
Thank you for your help.I'm playing a pirate in skull & shackles. Any flavor considerations there?
Fabricate, to me, is not a money machine, its a time machine.
Take it from me making chains is not going to work, no GM will let you get away with it even if it is RAW legal.
So where does it fail? Probably on the real market side. No one wants to buy the chains. You COULD set up shop to sell them yourself (or hire a shopkeeper to do it) but that could take years and the wages and building upkeep would dramatically lower your massive windfall.
If you want the market to absorb this then there ARE ways... make a good that the people normally import and sell it at reduced prices. It could still take weeks to unload and you are going to have the guys who import the stuff putting a price on your head. But if you can survive the assassins, go for it.
From a RAW, RAI, and economics POV, it seems that jewlery is the thing that would work.
gold/platinum/silver jewlery is very common as treasure, and i have never seen a DM (or even when i DM) argue that the market is flooded.
From a RAW, RAI, and economics POV, it seems that jewlery is the thing that would work.
gold/platinum/silver jewlery is very common as treasure, and i have never seen a DM (or even when i DM) argue that the market is flooded.
There is a first time for everything. Exactly why are you so set on a money making scheme?
Are you and your group signficiantly under geared for what you are challenges you are facing?
Boring7 and PSusac gave great ways to use the spell that didn't involve amassing wealth and using it for personal power. PLenty of legimate uses there. However, you seem to keep fixating on and coming back to how you can use it to make money, why?
|
Franko, it seems to me that your primary goal here is to make money, not save time. The more money you have, the easier the game gets. That's all. If it gets too easy, congratulations: you just won Pathfinder. Now none of the other players at your table will have any fun. Hooray. Why would you want a game you can't lose at? Why do you want that? Why not just cheat at solitaire?
Trust me, it gets boring quick.
For one thing, i am trying to understand the spell. What can it do and what it can't do. Boring7 did come up with some excellent uses of the spell.
I dont like the crafting system in PF, nor do i understand the economic system. THese two things are probably the weakest part of the PF system. Just something that bugs me.
I dispise the WBL system, to me it discourages creative, innovative gameplay.
But honestly, i'm playing a support wizard that needs money for spells. I dont want to be responsible for a TPK if i dont have the right item or scroll. Our group has played this game for well over a year, we have invested lots of time.
The DM might hold back, but i would rather play the game as being prepared, and if i fail, at least i tired.
You should have plenty of money to pickup any spells you need. As well as any other gear.
Since wizards don't normally wear armor or wield weapons it's frees up a lot of your wealth by level that other characters spend. Unless your GM is not providing welath at the expected rate such that you are roughly at WBL, you have nothing to worry about.
The point of WBL is too keep players at a certain power level so that the CR system works. CR already doesn't work very well, but increasing the party's WBL by 50% or more skews it so heavily that you need party CR +3 or more as minions just so they don't get pancaked (just as personal experience). And, as a GM that creates a lot more work to customize encounters just so that the can be something more difficult than a cakewalk.
Worse than that, is disparate wealth between characters. You create a situation in which one character is more powerful, because wealth is power in Pathfinder. Allowing full spellcasters to become more wealthy is even worse, as they are already more powerful than their mundane counterparts could hope to be. While a 20th level fighter might be able to kill one enemy a round, effectively all he can do is swing a sword. A 20th level wizard stops time, paralyzes his enemies, destroys cities.
Could you elaborate on why you think WBL discourages innovative game play?
The reason why i dont like wealth by level......
1st level thief/rouge type work real hard on setting up a mugging of an aristocrat.
If he alreasy has close to his "WBL" he is not supposed to go significantly above it?
So for a "richer" thief, the character might get 10 gp, while a poorer thief would get 50 gp.
[just a general description]
That removes any incentive to strategic or tactical thinking and good dice rolling.
WBL in my opinion does not award good roleplaying and good roll-playing.
Downtime profiteering and character wealth are between the player and the DM.
Pathfinder Economics are equally simple, the DM controls the economy with an iron fist. If the DM lets you sell an endless amount of chains then fine, if I were DMing I'd make up some figure of how much you could sell and what you would sell it for (fast sale is harder than hanging out for a year) based on population, local need for chains (I mean what does a farming community need with 4 miles of iron chain?), and an eye on the WBL standard (it doesn't have to be perfect, just within a general range).
If you started hacking in what I felt was "too much" cash I'd discuss it and either convince you to stop doing that, come up with an excuse why it didn't work, or reduce everyone's downtime so it wasn't an issue. That last option annoys a lot of players who were using their craft feats to make the sword they wanted, so it's really a collective punishment.
Moving on, I am not familiar with skulls and shackles, let me take a look at the player guide.
...
Okay the player's guide didn't add anything I cared about.If you're willing to deal with slaving pirate scum, Masterwork Manacles are valuable and often in demand.
If you have access to a lot of hemp you can make canvas sails, hemp rope, and fishing nets. Huge (of low-dollar) market for that stuff, and it makes useful materials for other things.
Cured timber is actually a bit of a process, there is more to a good wooden boat than just cutting down a tree and stapling it to a boat. Making boat parts or even raw planks and properly-dried/shellacked mast-logs (I don't know sailor terminology) can be worthwhile. Maybe they don't need you to repair the boat (though you'd just cast make whole for that) but they could use the spare parts for when they're 12 days out at sea and something breaks.
Siege weapons are complicated mixes of iron and wood and finicky moving parts, but if you can make the craft check you can install one in/on a boat...
once again, thank you for you input.
But where i am confused is that with Fabricate, you cannot mix parts to create something.?the would and iron dont mix? [siege weapon example]
The reason why i dont like wealth by level......1st level thief/rouge type work real hard on setting up a mugging of an aristocrat.
If he alreasy has close to his "WBL" he is not supposed to go significantly above it?
So for a "richer" thief, the character might get 10 gp, while a poorer thief would get 50 gp.
[just a general description]
That removes any incentive to strategic or tactical thinking and good dice rolling.
WBL in my opinion does not award good roleplaying and good roll-playing.
I can understand your point, to an extent. But there as ways to control that without it becoming a big deal.
Firstly, 10 gp versus 50 isn't a big deal. Except at first level. And while it might afford you a little extra power it's not particularly significant. But that's not really the point.
Instead of the GM changing the reward based on how much welath you have, he would be better of telling you that the rich target doesn't walk about town with large sums of money. And that the majority of his wealth is in a bank or typed up in trade goods, or valuables in his mansion. Things that are not so easy to take, and likely to be guarded. And so you call on the rest of your adventuring party to help you. And then before you know it your doing a quest and you didn't even realize it. Gaining experience and wealth, as you approrpiately should.
Point of order, this has never, ever been my experience while playing a wizard, ever.
To get a new spell, I have to buy a scroll (which costs a LOT) I have to write it into my spellbook (which costs quite a bit too) I have to make a check (not a big deal) and that's the [u]cheap[/u] option. This is just to functionally use my class ability.
A fighter needs a magic sword, maybe out of a special material.
Also wizard toys are more disposable. Magic sword swings forever, magic wand has 50 charges before it's kaput. And most wizard-desired items are universal items, like the ring of fire resistance, or the amulet of natural armor. Fighter needs one just as bad as you, maybe more since she's on the front line.
Oh but enemy wizards, they have spellbooks, with like 5 new spells, 2 good ones, and you still have to pay to write them into your spellbook. So there's that.
Sure you have to buy the scroll and scribe it. Just as a point, I decided to look at the cost of a 3rd level spell scroll for a 5th level wizard. WBL is 10500 at level 5, and the scroll cost 375 gp. Representing less than ~4% of WBL. What does this mean? You can't have every spell on this list. But you can probably have any of the generally important one worth having, and if a specific need comes up you can always buy another later.
Calculating the scribing cost + scroll cost it represent about 4.5% of WBL at level 5 to learn an additional 3rd level spell.That's pretty darn cheap. And, as your level increases the relative percentage of wealth by level continues to decrease.
But where i am confused is that with Fabricate, you cannot mix parts to create something.?
the would and iron dont mix? [siege weapon example]They'll mix, though you might need to cast fabricate to "cure" the wood first if your starting point was "a tree". My point was simply you would NEED all those materials in raw form (which means tracking them down, possibly buying or making them, getting them together before you cast) and that a siege engine is complex enough that it's a pretty hard craft check.
Also remember when you cast the spell, the object ends up in the general area of the place you cast it and some finished objects shouldn't really be some places. A ballista for a ship should probably NOT be on wheels, rolling around and being unstable, which means you have to cast the spell that makes it while onboard the ship it is being installed in, with all the raw materials to build it.
It might not always matter, but it can.
That does significantly change the situation....
To all:
Oil, cotton, yello pigment to make oilcloth outfits in "saftey yellow" legal or not?
The vlaue of scribing spells (just spells) has a replacment cost of 44,000 gp. It has no protactions on it (yet).
Runing a wizard properly is like a tax audit.
