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I'm not sure. There may have been a period where both were running around and calling themselves Thor.
I'm pretty sure you are right that the spirit of Thor was in him at least for most of the time. He also called himself Thunderstrike because Thor had the hammer and the mace he got instead was called Thunderstrike.
I'm honestly not trying to rely on this argument like the foundation for building a new government or a new system of law. This if flimsy. I get it. I just don't think (clearly har har) that the argument that "No one else can be Thor" needs to be the basis for so much vitriol and that there is at least some decent arguments for it. Even ignoring the whole Masterson point I think my argument that most people wouldn't call themselves something else makes sense. But that honestly might just be me. I'm an odd duck, I can accept that.
I guess I just don't get how any fandom that is comprised of people who spend their time and energy mired in the fantastical get so pissed off when someone tries to do something fantastical. Aaron might end up pulling some obscure Norse myth basis for the whole thing and then we will get threads about how Marvel Thor is different than actual Norse myth...which is obviously true except when its not.
"Canon" "Continuity" These things are fluid. Sometimes when they are broken it is awesome. Sometimes it sucks. Same is true for when it is followed. As someone who worked in the sales part of the industry I would always say "Vote with your dollar" and my GOD are comics fans bad about that. They will crow and crow and howl...and then fork over their 2.99.
I guess we will see how its executed.
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I'm not sure. There may have been a period where both were running around and calling themselves Thor.
I'm pretty sure you are right that the spirit of Thor was in him at least for most of the time. He also called himself Thunderstrike because Thor had the hammer and the mace he got instead was called Thunderstrike.
I'm honestly not trying to rely on this argument like the foundation for building a new government or a new system of law. This if flimsy. I get it. I just don't think (clearly har har) that the argument that "No one else can be Thor" needs to be the basis for so much vitriol and that there is at least some decent arguments for it. Even ignoring the whole Masterson point I think my argument that most people wouldn't call themselves something else makes sense. But that honestly might just be me. I'm an odd duck, I can accept that.
I guess I just don't get how any fandom that is comprised of people who spend their time and energy mired in the fantastical get so pissed off when someone tries to do something fantastical. Aaron might end up pulling some obscure Norse myth basis for the whole thing and then we will get threads about how Marvel Thor is different than actual Norse myth...which is obviously true except when its not.
"Canon" "Continuity" These things are fluid. Sometimes when they are broken it is awesome. Sometimes it sucks. Same is true for when it is followed. As someone who worked in the sales part of the industry I would always say "Vote with your dollar" and my GOD are comics fans bad about that. They will crow and crow and howl...and then fork over their 2.99.
I guess we will see how its executed.
If you mean to say that in the Marvel Universe, it's a title and a name then comic book history proves that wrong too. Masterson specifically stated he wasn't really Thor and was taking on his identity. (check out the Infinity Gauntlet saga for proof)
Uh...I really have to ask, how is that any different than my statement that it is a title and the name of a man? Masterson wasn't Thor, son of Odin, and he admitted that...he then took the name Thor...as his codename....title...what he put on his Avengers work badge...clearly not the same dude but Photon, Living Lightning, Starfox and all the rest looked at him and said "Uh yeah ok"
And yes, as I admitted (since it was me who was making this argument for the most part) no one else said "Hi I'm THOR".
All I am saying is if Ingrid Brunhilde swedish superscientist picks up the hammer, gets the powers, walks into Avengers Tower and say "Yah, I guess I'm Thor now" that isn't any different than Masterson doing it. Even if she follows it up with "Well yeah I'm not THOR like god of Norse myth Thor but call me that because it obviously makes sense..."
I promise you, most people pick up a hammer that says "You have the power of Thor" their first reaction isn't to say "Well I guess I am Thunder Cracker or Black Thor or Thor Boy!" Its to say..."Welp, I guess I am mother f@#&ing Thor now!"
Jason Aaron writes good Thor comics! Jason Aaron writes good comics generally. Give the guy a chance. Thor, son of Odin will get the hammer back at some point. I can handle a year or so of him moping around with an Asgardian cyber arm and a Norse battleaxe while some lady gets to be Odin's favorite son. That sounds new and interesting. I will withhold adding "exciting" to the description until I actually read the book.
Taking the codename Thor when Thor exists in the Marvel Universe is dumb. That'd be like me getting a lion skin that makes me super strong and calling myself Hercules. Hercules is already around. Two people calling themselves the same thing is confusing.
Masterson was pretending to be the same Thor that preceded him. No one knew he wasn't the real Thor because no one knew about Donald Blake.
This new woman isn't going to bother with a pointless charade. She's gonna wield the hammer and keep her gender and identity. Hence she is "X, Goddess of Thunder" (X = her name) and everyone should just call her that.
If I picked up the hammer I might be tempted to call myself Thor but I'd be wrong. I'd be the God of Thunder. I would not be Thor Odinson. The new woman will be the Goddess of Thunder and I have no problem with that.
Will Jason Aaron write a good arc of Thor trying to be worthy again? Maybe. We'll see but I have no reason to think it won't be good. Just like I have no reason to think the new Goddess of Thunder won't be a good character.
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Taking the codename Thor when Thor exists in the Marvel Universe is dumb. That'd be like me getting a lion skin that makes me super strong and calling myself Hercules. Hercules is already around....
I'm not home near my copies of the Avengers from "back in the day" but I am like 75% and rising certain that the people who knew Thor, knew that Masterson was not Thor. I am seem to recall explicit references during Operation Galactic Storm where he was arguing with people about not treating him like a newbie.
If I took Iron Man's suit, I would call myself Iron Man. I take a hammer that says I got what Thor is supposed to have? Well I probably would try to give it to someone else. But I might call myself Thor. Especially if I get a bunch of kick ass Norse armor and flowing blond locks while I rocked the thing. What's Odinson gonna do about it? I'm Thor now he wants to be Thor? Well then take the hammer back...
Hmm. Wonder if they will just call him Odinson? Or actually call him Thor?
Rationalizations can built, I'm not saying they are amazing or Eisner worthy...but I'm with thejeff, let's see what actually happens.
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And people wonder why I prefer DC.
And people wonder why I prefer DC.
DC's had it's own string of wacky decisions particularly since the New 52. And most of their criticism has been after the actual events, not just based on the announcements.
They've also lost several high profile creators to Marvel over some of their editorial decisions.
Maybe that was for the better? I got back into comics because many of the changes appealed to me. I really liked where they went with (Batman's) Robin in particular. Things are interesting again.
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. . . This new woman isn't going to bother with a pointless charade. She's gonna wield the hammer and keep her gender and identity. Hence she is "X, Goddess of Thunder" (X = her name) and everyone should just call her that. . . .
I believe that in the Norse myths, he's still the God of Thunder (and other polios) even without Mjolnir, as he was before he received the weapon. To be fair, he was also described as red haired and red bearded, and Marvel doesn't have him married to Sif anymore or fathering Thrúd, Módi, or Magni... or a lot of other things.
I believe that in the Norse myths, he's still the God of Thunder (and other polios) even without Mjolnir, as he was before he received the weapon. To be fair, he was also described as red haired and red bearded, and Marvel doesn't have him married to Sif anymore or fathering Thrúd, Módi, or Magni... or a lot of other things.
Yeah, I guess this is one of the main disconnects between Thor and MarvelThor.
Any number of people since that exchange have shown in their posts why this new character isn't and cannot be Thor. Can they be the God(dess) of Thunder? Sure, why not? Can they take the name "Thor"? Can't argue that. Can they simply be this other being? No. No matter the assertions of the author or his admirers/devotees, the answer is self-evidently "No." Power and essence are not personality and consciousness ... and thus they're not identity.
The long term challenge Marvel has is that Mjolner and it's power is already part of Thor's overall identity, so having another character fill in for him, even temporarily, that doesn't feel like a direct ripoff of Thor, all while giving him his powers, his name, and the immediately recognizable bits of his identity, is going to be very tough. By making it a woman, it's going to be that much tougher because a lot of people are going to expect them to continue supporting the fill-in character as a main character after they give Thor his hammer back. It's a tall order for them to pull off.
Ultimately, my concern isn't how well they handle Thor, it's how well they set up and provide the basis for long term support of the fill in character. If they just throw someone in that role long enough to focus on the real Thor's redemption, and than forget about the fill in character, it's a waste of time.
I sure hope they don't mean to suggest that a woman would need magical accessories to be a powerful superhero! Hrmph!
All I'm sayin' is that, of the two of us, I know which of us is the more intelligent one. Me, er, uh, I mean, my wife. Yes. That is who I mean.
I think that could get you in some trouble, yeah.
What I'm still waiting for in mainstream comics are the genuine female geniuses on a par with Victor Von Doom, Reed Richards, Anthony Stark, Lex Luthor, et al. Granted, we've plenty of intelligent women, but rarely is one considered the smartest in the room. That still seems to be the province of men.
Hot? Sure, that's a given. Strong? Absolutely. (Hell, Wonder Woman's arguably stronger than Captain Marvel, if not Superman.) Brainy on the order of an Einstein, Hawking or Da Vinci? Nope.
She is known as Oracle, a.k.a. Batgirl, (a.k.a., Barbara Gordon).
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She is known as Oracle, a.k.a. Batgirl, (a.k.a., Barbara Gordon).I think that could get you in some trouble, yeah.
What I'm still waiting for in mainstream comics are the genuine female geniuses on a par with Victor Von Doom, Reed Richards, Anthony Stark, Lex Luthor, et al. Granted, we've plenty of intelligent women, but rarely is one considered the smartest in the room. That still seems to be the province of men.
Hot? Sure, that's a given. Strong? Absolutely. (Hell, Wonder Woman's arguably stronger than Captain Marvel, if not Superman.) Brainy on the order of an Einstein, Hawking or Da Vinci? Nope.
Not any more she's not.
Speaking of things about the New 52 that drew complaints.
I know it. She HAD been a legitimate female entry into comics' intellectual elite.
No wonder they felt the need to "nerf" her.
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Maybe she's the one who used her Super Intelligence to con you into marrying her?
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What I'm still waiting for in mainstream comics are the genuine female geniuses on a par with Victor Von Doom, Reed Richards, Anthony Stark, Lex Luthor, et al. Granted, we've plenty of intelligent women, but rarely is one considered the smartest in the room. That still seems to be the province of men.
And the few that do pop up tend to be villains. June Covington, Superia, Moonstone. Or their intelligence gets downplayed. Emma Frost used to be smart enough to build psionic machines that swapped people's minds. That was decades ago. Now? Not so much.
And then there are the cringeworthy 'geniuses.' Sunset Bain, a rival to Tony Stark on the tech-CEO front, who, unlike Hammer, Cord and Stane, gets her high-tech secrets by seducing smart rivals and stealing them, 'cause that's how tech-CEO *women* work in the Marvel universe...
Marvel's come a long way, but it's still got a long way to go, and handing off a male character's power and role to a woman we'll probably never see again after Thor takes the hammer back a year or two from now, is not the way to go.
Unlike Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, X-23 or Captain Marvel (all spin-off characters who have more or less transcended their rough starts as, in at least one case, female spin-offs designed to secure a copyright), I'd prefer to see some focus on any of Marvel's original (non-spin-off) female characters, like Wasp, Invisible Woman, Scarlet Witch, Monica Rambeau, etc. And if they want a serious powerhouse, there's always Moondragon or Sersi or Phyla-Vell floating around. A renewed focus on Crystal might help drag up this Inhuman thing that's otherwise floundering, for that matter.
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Maybe she's the one who used her Super Intelligence to con you into marrying her?
And that reminds me of the expression, "You chase them until they catch you."
;)
And the few that do pop up tend to be villains. June Covington, Superia, Moonstone. Or their intelligence gets downplayed. Emma Frost used to be smart enough to build psionic machines that swapped people's minds. That was decades ago. Now? Not so much.Would that be back when Emma was a villain? which kind of proves the point
Which is why smart women buck the system... it's the path of least resistance.
Wait...
Maybe she's the one who used her Super Intelligence to con you into marrying her?
If she did, she didn't have to work so hard. I was totes ready for, like, a year before she said, 'yes'. :D
And that reminds me of the expression, "You chase them until they catch you."
Yep! Lovin' every minute of it! Yay for being caught!
Maybe she's the one who used her Super Intelligence to con you into marrying her?If she did, she didn't have to work so hard. I was totes ready for, like, a year before she said, 'yes'. :D
And that reminds me of the expression, "You chase them until they catch you."Yep! Lovin' every minute of it! Yay for being caught!
So the lad takes after her then? ;)
:D
And people wonder why I prefer DC.
Same, but I stopped all Marvel titles after Civil War, tbh. The Marvel U is just a mess since then.
Late Edit*** I did try some of the Marvel reboots from time to time, but they are just so different than the pre-civil war books. They didn't feel like a good jumping on point despite the renumbering. Every book felt linked to another including the solo books like Spider Man, Cap, Hulk, Thor etc.
probably already said in this thread, but I wonder if this is happening so they can set up Thor "retiring" after the current movie actors contract is up? They seem to be setting up Bucky in the movie universe to take the mantle of Captain America when Chris Evans leaves the role. So maybe have Sif take over for Thor?
probably already said in this thread, but I wonder if this is happening so they can set up Thor "retiring" after the current movie actors contract is up? They seem to be setting up Bucky in the movie universe to take the mantle of Captain America when Chris Evans leaves the role. So maybe have Sif take over for Thor?
Possible. We also know that MARVEL is talking to Katee Sackhoff, so it is possible that this is part of the Comic's visual. Though most people, myself included, are pulling for her to play a Captain Marvel.
We do know that Chris Evans is unlikely (at this point) to extend his contract, so that might be part of why Anthony Mackie was brought in.
I'd prefer the recasting as well as just letting the relevant franchise lay idle for a bit. Focus on other characters for a few years and bring back Thor, Captain America, and Iron Man later on with new actors.
I don't know if that is what they will do however. MCU has recast minor characters and Bruce Banner, but none of the really successful big league players.
Especially with the whole interlocking movie storylines Marvel has going. Do we really want the entire Avengers cast swapped out for replacement heros with the originals never to be seen again? Or reboot the process of bringing the Avengers together every time someone's contract is up?
Yes.
MARVEL has lots and lots interesting characters. Many are worthy of their own films and inclusion in the Avengers.
Especially with the whole interlocking movie storylines Marvel has going. Do we really want the entire Avengers cast swapped out for replacement heros with the originals never to be seen again? Or reboot the process of bringing the Avengers together every time someone's contract is up?Yes.
MARVEL has lots and lots interesting characters. Many are worthy of their own films and inclusion in the Avengers.
Swapping out characters for the Avengers is something to be expected to some degree, but they need to have a better reason for specific swaps than lengths of contracts.
This is one direction I hope they don't go. Sure, actors are unlikely to want to play the part for more than 2 or 3 movies, but I'd much rather they just cast someone else and handwave the differences than concoct a reason for a different character to take over the role. (Or worse reboot the franchise.)
I don't mind a temporary replacement, as long as it's a good story, but then what? If we're basing it on actors, then we get a couple of movies with the replacement and then we need a new replacement, who'll have to be somebody else completely.
Take the James Bond route. Different actor, same role.
Especially with the whole interlocking movie storylines Marvel has going. Do we really want the entire Avengers cast swapped out for replacement heros with the originals never to be seen again? Or reboot the process of bringing the Avengers together every time someone's contract is up?
I couldn't agree more thejeff.
We the audience are big boys and girls we aren't going to avoid your movies if you trade out the actor for a role... with some exceptions of course. And of course the very vocal but very much in the minority nerd rage crowd, who will tear apart everything they see.
This is one direction I hope they don't go. Sure, actors are unlikely to want to play the part for more than 2 or 3 movies, but I'd much rather they just cast someone else and handwave the differences than concoct a reason for a different character to take over the role. (Or worse reboot the franchise.)
I don't mind a temporary replacement, as long as it's a good story, but then what? If we're basing it on actors, then we get a couple of movies with the replacement and then we need a new replacement, who'll have to be somebody else completely.
Take the James Bond route. Different actor, same role.
Especially with the whole interlocking movie storylines Marvel has going. Do we really want the entire Avengers cast swapped out for replacement heros with the originals never to be seen again? Or reboot the process of bringing the Avengers together every time someone's contract is up?
I couldn't agree more thejeff.
We the audience are big boys and girls we aren't going to avoid your movies if you trade out the actor for a role... with some exceptions of course. And of course the very vocal but very much in the minority nerd rage crowd, who will tear apart everything they see.
The problem here is that EVERYONE is going to have exceptions, from the casual fan to the obsessed nerd. You being upset over someone being cast/reimagined/designed poorly shouldn't be dismissed because you are a casual fan, nor should someone else because they are huge comic nerd. They can't go crazy-quilt here, although diversity should be seriously(and I stress the word SERIOUSLY- no token black/trans,etc. characters OR newbie actors who just want to afford rent this week and won't read their contract who happen to be a minority) respected.
I trust Jason Aaron to continue telling good Thor stories. The previous Odinson will still be around. I'm curious as to who this new Thor is.
It's angela.
I trust Jason Aaron to continue telling good Thor stories. The previous Odinson will still be around. I'm curious as to who this new Thor is.It's angela.
I'm pretty sure it isn't Angela for the same reason I'm pretty sure it isn't Medusa or the Scarlet Witch: because they are all shown together with Lady Thor on that recent Marvel Now poster.
I don't follow the Thor titles, but if I had to make a wild guess, maybe it's...
Interesting, amby...hm.
Ambrosia Slaad I pictured her as Thor the moment it was announced. I hope you are right, it would be awesome.
Beta Ray Bill became Beta Ray Thor so maybe it will be something like that. Also maybe it is keeping the Thor title so people know to follow it.
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Ambrosia Slaad I pictured her as Thor the moment it was announced. I hope you are right, it would be awesome.
You saw Ambrosia Slaad as the new Thor?
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Lady Thor
*snicker*
Sorry, but that just tickles my funny bone. It's like a female Captain America calling herself "Lady Steve".
Though I suppose if she was Sif, calling herself Mrs. Thor would make sense. In the 50s.
Ambrosia Slaad I pictured her as Thor the moment it was announced. I hope you are right, it would be awesome.You saw Ambrosia Slaad as the new Thor?
No silly, the person she names in her spoiler is who I pictured as the new Thor.