Hey all. Tis me, he who asked about dodge on a paladin (I've settled on "no" for that one). I have another question: Is Weapon Focus (greatsword in this case) worth taking? Here's my initial stat block at level 1 (20 pt build).
STR- 16 (14+2 human)
DEX- 10
CON- 15
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 16
Feats- Fey Foundling, Power Attack
Base Attack- 4 (+1 class, +3 STR)
Yes, I know that this isn't min/max'ed. Yes, I know I could pick up another 2 attribute points using the Dual Talent alternate race feature. I may in the end go that way, but am leaning heavily against it at this point because I want three skills built up over the course of the build (initimidate, knowledge (religion), use magic device).
Alright, given all of that, should I consider taking weapon focus at some point, and if so, should I do it at level one in place of Power Attack? I'm not really sold on Weapon Focus, but then again, +1 never hurts to have.
Some feats I'm looking at down the road (some I'm more solid about than others:
Furious Focus
Extra Lay On Hands
Greater Mercy
Cornugon Smash (I'm making an intimidate build)
Intimidating Prowess (see above)
Cleave
Great Cleave
Toughness
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
-Step Up Chain
-Improved Crit chain
1. Power Attack & Fey Foundling
3. Weapon Focus: Falchion
5. Extra Lay on Hands
7. Vital Strike
9. Improved Critical: Falchion
^How I would feat a Paladin, but instead of level 7 Vital Strike, I guess you could take Cornugon Smash if you really wanted.
I don't know why you would want to focus on Intimidate, it's much more limited than Diplomacy role play wise for a Paladin, but I guess it could be fun. You just gotta be careful with he paladin codex, Paladins shouldn't lie, so everything you threaten somebody with your Paladin would actually be willing to do.
Furious Focus is very similar to Weapon Focus but imho weaker because with Weapon Focus you get ATK bonus also on AoO.
Greater Mercy is just...why? You really planning on runnig around in combat playing in combat medic? Just no.
Intimidating Prowess is just too weak compared to other feats.
Cleave is good on low levels, not so much once you get to 6BAB, so if you got the chance to retrain you could go with it instead of Weapon Focus.
Toughness is not worth it, Layon Hands is >>>>>>>>
Dazzling Display , other stuff is just much better
Shatter Defenses, same
Step Up feat chain probably the best thing after you are finished with crit
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You have too many other feats to worry about. Don't waste your time getting a +1 to hit with a specific weapon. Be versatile and smite with whatever you have on hand.
Furious Focus will get you a +3 to damage on all of your attacks until 6th level (because you only have one attack a round discounting AoOs, so why not always use it?), when you should perhaps think of retraining it.
I can udnerstanding not taking Weapon Focus because you don't think the +1ATK is worth it, but I have a hard time believing that Furious Focus is actually better than Weapon Focus.
From level 1-3 They do the same, from level 4-5 Furious Weapon is better by 1 ATK per turn if you don't get a AoO, if you do they are the same.
From level 6 to 7 they are the same if you get a fullround attack going without a AoO, with one Weapon Focus is better.
and so on, they are either equal or Furious is 1-2 better without an AoO.
The difference is that you may not want to use power attack on every single attack, if you don't it becomes a does nothing feat, while Weapon Focus is still giving you +1 ATK for every single attack you do.
I don't know why you would want to focus on Intimidate, it's much more limited than Diplomacy role play wise for a Paladin, but I guess it could be fun. You just gotta be careful with he paladin codex, Paladins shouldn't lie, so everything you threaten somebody with your Paladin would actually be willing to do.
Character concept is why I'm going Intimidate. My character is a paladin in service of the god of Death* and her presence is very unsettling to others. She's quite gothy and dark (even as she's LG). Think Raven from Teen Titans, but cranked up to 11. Also, some one else is going to be the face, and I'm pretty sure some of the other players will be decent at diplomacy as well.
*(Yes, paladins don't normally get to serve TN dieties by the letter of the rules, but my GM is amenable and there's been enough discussion online, including one involving one of the Pathfinder developers, to make it feasible. Mostly a fluff issue anyways)
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The difference is that you may not want to use power attack on every single attack, if you don't it becomes a does nothing feat, while Weapon Focus is still giving you +1 ATK for every single attack you do.
Why would you not? There is no penalty. And once you start having more than one attack, you retrain out of it.
If you might not want to use power attack every single time, it goes the same for weapon focus. You might not want to use your WF weapon every time. So every time you use a different weapon it becomes a does nothing feat.
If you gonna retrain, might as well grab Cleave, that thing does way more on low levels than Weapon Focus or Furious
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Cleave is garbage. Penalty to AC, only works on a hit, enemies have to be adjacent.
Fight one enemy and it's a 'does nothing feat' like you were complaining about.
Greater Mercy is just...why? You really planning on runnig around in combat playing in combat medic? Just no.
Mostly for Ultimate Mercy.
I can see Ultimate Mercy only if you got nobody else who can do that job in the group, else the opportunity cost would just be too big.
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Character concept is why I'm going Intimidate...
And because Cornugon Smash is fun! Which leads to the reason I would not take WF- it is a reasonable feat mechanically, but I don't find it very interesting. Consider taking something that you'll get a kick out of using, like Unsanctioned Knowledge or Step Up or Greater Mercy.
I would sya take a falchion with improved critical instead but thats just me 2d4 with a 15-20 crit range is far better than 2d6 19-20
Before I get into that, wouldn't a falchion with improved critical have a crit range of 16-20, not 15-20? How does the math work there? Doubling 18-20 would be 16-20, right?
Double means you take the dice rolls that you can crite on
18-19-20 (3 dice rolls) and double them 15-16-17 ( 3 dice rolls)
Falchion is because of the 18-20 way better than any other 2H weapon if you plan on taking the critical feats or if you plan on enchanting keen on it.
I recommend the Oath of Vengeance archetype. You lose Channel Energy which is mostly garbage especially on a Paladin for a bazillion smites per day.
Extra Lay on Hands is always better than Toughness for a Paladin. Especially if you have Fey Foundling.
Double means you take the dice rolls that you can crite on
18-19-20 (3 dice rolls) and double them 15-16-17 ( 3 dice rolls)
Falchion is because of the 18-20 way better than any other 2H weapon if you plan on taking the critical feats or if you plan on enchanting keen on it.
Oh, gotcha. I was forgetting to count 20 as a distinct number.
Anyways, my answer: Math (over the course of 100 hits, averaged damage, assuming all crits land, corrected for my mistake on crit ranges).
Greatsword with improved critical
(80x7) + (20x14) = 840 Total Damage Output
Falchion
(70x5) + (30x10)= 650 Total Damage Output
This, of course leaves out STR bonuses and two handed bonuses to damage, but those numbers are a wash in this comparison. Whatever the case, even with reduced critical chance, the greatsword outpaces the falchion in over all damage potential. Now yes, more crits with the falchion means more opportunities to use those crit feat enhancements, so I'm no saying absolutely "No" yet to the falchion. But at this point, I am leaning towards greatsword for the above reason (plus I can hang onto a feat and not use it getting the exotic weapon proficiency).
Feel free to set me straight if my math is off. I make no claims to be an expert.
I recommend the Oath of Vengeance archetype. You lose Channel Energy which is mostly garbage especially on a Paladin for a bazillion smites per day.
Extra Lay on Hands is always better than Toughness for a Paladin. Especially if you have Fey Foundling.
I may go the Oath of Vengence way, though it may require some haggling on my part, or at least hoping my GM doesn't care too much. You see, my whole concept is a character who is an undead hunter taked by her god to wipe out the abominations where ever she finds them. Seems like Oath of vengence would work well for that until you notice there is an Oath Against Undeath that is no where near as cool. I could play a paladin straight and have the undead hatred be fluff, but when I start down the path of Oathbound archetypes, I have to hope my GM doesn't call me out and say, "Hey, you really should be Oath Against Undeath more than you should be Oath of Vengence."
That said, it might be better to apologize than ask for permission. ;-)
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As a Paladin, a high threat range is definitely better than a lower one due to your damage being so high from Smite. Leaving out your Strength and Two handed bonuses to damage is a huge mistake in your comparison as it'll make up more than enough in your final damage output, though it may be difficult to see at level one.
Are you also going to be using critical feats? Staggering Critical and Bleeding Critical are quite powerful. Either one is worth using the falchion over the greatsword in my opinion.
Also, your decision to ignore outside variables such as strength and power attack has harmed your math. Lets assume a static +30 damage from strength and power attack. The damage difference will get larger the more static numbers you add into the equation. Considering you will have smite, strength, and power attack on your side, the Falchion is a good choice.
(80x37) + (20x74) = 4440
(70x35) + (30x70)= 4550
Leaving out your Strength and Two handed bonuses to damage is a huge mistake in your comparison as it'll make up more than enough in your final damage output, though it may be difficult to see at level one.
In the words of Homer Simpson: Explain how. I'm not doubting you, rather my ability to parse out the math only goes so far. From my vantage point, the two-handed bonuses between greatsword and falchion should be tipped in favor of the greatsword in the same way my basic damage math is tipped in favor of the greatsword. Hence why I called it a wash.
Leaving out your Strength and Two handed bonuses to damage is a huge mistake in your comparison as it'll make up more than enough in your final damage output, though it may be difficult to see at level one.In the words of Homer Simpson: Explain how. I'm not doubting you, rather my ability to parse out the math only goes so far. From my vantage point, the two-handed bonuses between greatsword and falchion should be tipped in favor of the greatsword in the same way my basic damage math is tipped in favor of the greatsword. Hence why I called it a wash.
Ah, okay. Now I'm seeing it.
Hmmmmm... Much to consider.
*Starts tapping fingers to his lips*
EDIT-
Okay, if I take the Falchion, I have to eat a feat. This means that I won't get Power Attack until Lv. 3 at the earliest. Is that a wise choice? Keep in mind I have to take Fey Foundling at Lv. 1 and I' pretty sold on that feat.
I just calculate with 20 hits hitting every number once, every hit is a success every crit is confirmed.
Formular is DMG * NonCrits +(DMG*CritMulti)*Crits
AverageWeaponDmg
Falchion 5*13+(5*2)*6 = 125
GreatSword 7*17+(7*2)*2 = 147
STR Bonus 4(which is +6 DMG with 2H)
Falchion 150
GreatSword 126
PowerAttack 6
Falchion 150
GreatSword 126
and so on. The larger the bonus (looking at smite) the larger the difference between a Falchion and a GreatSword.
Also heres the calculation with strength and power attack.
Improved Crit Greatsword 17-20 Crit Range should crit 20 times over 100 strikes
(80x14)+(20x28)= 1680 total damage
Improved Crit Falchion 15-20 Crit Range should crit 30 times over 100 strikes.
(70x12)+(30x24)=1560
Notice how close that is? Fast forward to what it should be by the time we have Improved Crit. Power Attack grants a +9 to damage and we've picked up a Belt of Str +2.
Greatsword
(80x22)+(20x44)= 2640
Falchion
(70x20)+(30x40)= 2640
Now we'll add our smite damage which is +8 at 8th level
Greatsword
(80x30)+(20x60)= 3600
Falchion
(70x28)+(30x56)= 3640
So when you are level 8 and smiting, the Falchion pulls ahead from there on. Ultimately, I find the higher crit rate of the Falchion to be far more satisfying in play. Critical hits are fun after all.
Okay, if I take the Falchion, I have to eat a feat. This means that I won't get Power Attack until Lv. 3 at the earliest. Is that a wise choice? Keep in mind I have to take Fey Foundling at Lv. 1 and I' pretty sold on that feat.
Why do you have to eat a feat? The Falchion is a martial weapon.
Why do you have to eat a feat? The Falchion is a martial weapon.
Okay, if I take the Falchion, I have to eat a feat. This means that I won't get Power Attack until Lv. 3 at the earliest. Is that a wise choice? Keep in mind I have to take Fey Foundling at Lv. 1 and I' pretty sold on that feat.
Crimeny, you're correct. I'd gotten myself confused. I've built and rebuilt this char a few different ways, including a half-orc version. I think the idea that half-orcs get the ability to use falchions for free with their race put the idea in my head that they were exotic. Ooops. I'm coming off of a long Savage World's campaign and haven't exactly got all my 3.x mojo working.
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All in a days work!
Goblin Forumlurker AWAYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Another thought: IF I took a falchion, would I be better served by taking improved critical or power attack at level 1?
Improved Critical has
Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.
So unless you intent to cheat, or your GM allows it you are stuck with Power Attack.
You could Simply start with a Great Sword and instead of picking Weapon Focus go with Furious or Cleave (which if you have 2 enemies in front of you, which happens a lot at low levels) allows you to double the amount of attacks you can do per turn at full BAB (-2 AC is worth it).
If you can't retrain go Furious level 3 and pick up a Falchion +1 (at least) shortly before you hit level 9. You could also if you have the money (about 8k) get a Keen Falchion +1 before you hit level 9 and get the big crit range without investing a feat.
Improved Critical has
Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.
So unless you intent to cheat, or your GM allows it you are stuck with Power Attack.
You could Simply start with a Great Sword and instead of picking Weapon Focus go with Furious or Cleave (which if you have 2 enemies in front of you, which happens a lot at low levels) allows you to double the amount of attacks you can do per turn at full BAB (-2 AC is worth it).
If you can't retrain go Furious level 3 and pick up a Falchion +1 (at least) shortly before you hit level 9. You could also if you have the money (about 8k) get a Keen Falchion +1 before you hit level 9 and get the big crit range without investing a feat.
Ooooppps again. Scratch that taking improved initiative at the start.
What do you mean? At what level would you take improved initiative?
Also, think about instead of starting with a Great Sword to start with a reach weapon (like the Glaive 1d10).
Pure dmg wise the Great Sword is better with 2d6 but the Glaive has reach, and since on low levels you will probably fight against enemies that need to be directly in front of you , you could get a AoO every time they close in without using a 5' step.
The weak point is that you need a square between yourself and your target to attack it with a reach weapon, but you can simply take a 5' step to achieve that.
I think the amount of easy AoO you could get with this will be wroth it.
What do you mean? At what level would you take improved initiative?
Also, think about instead of starting with a Great Sword to start with a reach weapon (like the Glaive 1d10).
Pure dmg wise the Great Sword is better with 2d6 but the Glaive has reach, and since on low levels you will probably fight against enemies that need to be directly in front of you , you could get a AoO every time they close in without using a 5' step.
The weak point is that you need a square between yourself and your target to attack it with a reach weapon, but you can simply take a 5' step to achieve that.
I think the amount of easy AoO you could get with this will be wroth it.
I'm going to be the party tank, thus I was figuring on needing a weapon that would keep me as close to the enemy as possible (an thus away from my companions). That said, I actually like reach weapons as a concept.
Don't dump wisdom. You will rue that over and over.
Start with Fey Foundling, Power Attack.
The problem with taking weapon focus falchion, is what happens if you find a Holy Greatsword?
Extra lay on hands is good.
Then see how the campaign goes.
See- what happens if you find you need to give more healing? Or you find a cool weapon or shield? or there's lost of touch attacks (then Dodge looks good), etc.
Every table is different.
And then your Wis-based skills are worthless. Not worth it for me.
Yes, and Perception is THE most rolled skill in the game. Sense Motive can be really bad to blow.
And even tho a Pally has great Will saves, there's nearly always room for better, since being Dominated and attacking your own party isn't very fun, nor is sitting out a whole combat.
And for what?
For points which could be spent on Cha.
But he didn't- he spent it on getting Con from 14 to 15, which is meh, and even if he did, the two points gained back would not increase the 16 at all.
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The 2 points that you were planning on spending on a 15 CON (rather than CON 14) should go to DEX for AC, especially for a two handed paladin. You want enough AC to mitigate some of the damage from the low level mooks, but not have your AC so high that you are now longer an enticing target.
I like Weapon Focus if you are in a campaign where the DM will work with you on finding magic weapons that will suit your character (and especially for PFS). Not so much if the campaign doles out random types of magic weapons.
As mentioned above, stay away for Cleave chain, Toughness, Step Up - there are better uses of your feats.
I think the basic feats for a two handed Human paladin are:
1) Fey Foundling, Power Attack
3) Weapon Focus
5) Extra Lay On Hands
7) **Your Choice**
9) Improved Critical
For your specific build, focusing on Intimidate, I would go:
1) Fey Foundling, Power Attack
3) Weapon Focus
5) Dazzling Display
7) Cornugon Smash
9) Improved Critical
11) Shatter Defenses
Quick Draw.
Smite Evil works on any weapon you wield, so abuse it. Get an efficient quiver and then fill it with cheap utility magical weapons like a reach weapon of choice, an adaptive longbow, and falcions of various materials or even enchantments (bane). If your GM allows you to full-attack every round against endless waves of smite-eligible targets then you can take skill focus (craft[pottery]) for all it matters, you'll be blowing up everything regardless.
I'm not a fan of Weapon Focus in general, and it's an especially underwhelming option for a class that is feat starved and has a hit bonus through smite.
Another reason to go with improved critical with the falchion is because of the spell bless weapon. Bless weapon allows you to automatically confirm a critical hit vs. an evil opponent. While it does not work with magical effects like keen or vorpal, it does work with improved critical. Bless weapon is a first level paladin spell that lasts 1 min. per level which is long enough for almost any fight.