Graeme: you can only edit up to one hour after the post is made.
Also, it's d20srd.org for the old 3.5 stuff and d20pfsrd.com for the PF stuff, which might be why you typed in the wrong url.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's probably it. Also... while I get why there's a 1-hour window on edits (because I can see someone pulling a jerk move regarding editing their post so that it looks like the other person in a debate/argument is talking out their butt, when they're really responding to the initial argument that was put forth) it's still frustrating.
But on to the topic of mathematics! Let's take a look at Ross's calculations.
62.5% have the capacity to learn cantrips or orisons. Let's assume that there's an even distribution of all classes released thus far (from Adepts to Wizards and everything in between). The classes are as follows:
Adept (Spellcaster), Alchemist (Spellcaster), Aristocrat (Non-Spellcaster), Barbarian (Non-Spellcaster), Bard (Spellcaster), Cavalier/Samurai (Non-Spellcaster), Cleric (Spellcaster), Commoner (Non-Spellcaster), Druid (Spellcaster), Expert (Non-Spellcaster), Fighter (Non-Spellcaster), Gunslinger (Non-Spellcaster), Inquisitor (Spellcaster), Magus (Spellcaster), Monk (Non-Spellcaster), Oracle (Spellcaster), Paladin/Antipaladin (Spellcaster), Ranger (Spellcaster), Rogue/Ninja (Non-Spellcaster), Sorcerer (Spellcaster), Summoner (Spellcaster), Warrior (Non-Spellcaster), Witch (Spellcaster), Wizard (Spellcaster)
Of the 24 classes listed, 14 are capable of learning to cast spells of one form or another, although if we limit it to being able to cast spells from first level onward, you have to get rid of Paladin and Ranger (thus limiting it to 12 classes).
Of the 12 classes capable of spellcasting from first level, the lowest-level spell their class grants is as follows:
- Adept: 0
- Alchemist: 1
- Bard: 0
- Cleric: 0
- Druid: 0
- Inquisitor: 0
- Magus: 0
- Oracle: 0
- Sorcerer: 0
- Summoner: 0
- Witch: 0
- Wizard: 0
Turns out most classes with spellcasting ability from level 1 can learn 0th-level spells. 11/24. This would mean that 28.6% of the populace would both (1) have the capacity to cast 0th-level spells and (2) be of the proper class to cast them without having to rely on UMD or (incredibly expensive) potions.
And, again, this is assuming something highly unlikely. Joe Random off the street is much more likely to have a level of an NPC class than a PC class, and the NPC classes aren't going to be balanced in the slightest. Most are likely to be Commoners, Experts, or Warriors; Adepts wouldn't be too common, and Aristocrats would be rare (although perhaps not as rare as PC classes, or maybe rarer).
I'm going to pull a couple decent-sounding numbers out my rear. Let's say that NPC-PC classes are a 9-1 split (90% NPC, 10% PC). Further, let's say that 4/5 of all NPCs are C/E/W (Commoners, Experts, Warriors), and 3/5 of the remainder are Adepts (for a grand total of 3/25 of NPCs as Adepts). This means we have to multiply the percentages by 3/25 and 10/19, respectively, giving us 10.8% and 5.3%, respectively, or a total of 16.1% of the population in a spellcasting class (because I'm not going to fiddle around with likely numbers for spellcasters among PC classes). Which makes 10.1% capable of casting cantrips.
With numbers like that, you could probably get Stabilize at your corner Temple... but CLW would be a bit tougher (since you only calculated for cantrips, Ross, and I'm not about to do EVEN MORE MATH to try and figure that out; I've already done enough math for a little bit, discounting my prime factorization notebook (I'm up to 463, if anyone is interested)).
I couldn't help myself. I did some more math. I made 3 assumptions:
1. The "Half below, half above" continues up to level 20.
2. "Half below, half above" also applies to mythic tiers, with Mythic Tier 1 located directly after Level 20 for an appropriate level of rarity.
3. Golarion's population is 7 billion (lowballing? maybe).
This means that there are 6,675 people of 20th level, and approximately 15 people with 10 mythic tiers (by the way, number of people with any mythic tiers at all are approximately the same as 20th-level non-mythics, meaning only 6,675 of them exist in the entire world). With Assumptions 1&3 but not Assumption 2 in place, there are 13,351 people of 20th level. In the entire world.
...I have to stop myself before I begin calculating the number of casters capable of 9th level spells. Or mass fly. Using my list of assumptions from my previous post.
...dammit, Graeme, stop mathing. STOP IT NOW.
|
I would say, to the OP, no. Magic population is primarily based on the designers intent.
You could IMO easily justify a wider-spread use of cantrips anyway. One elder could teach generations of children through young adults enough basics of magic to have people coming of age with the ability to use the lowest level of magic, though, culturally, you have to look at a small number of spells that a community would teach everyone. Even then, id say a minority of people would have the ability and dedication to learn, depending on social pressure.
I have a world (non-golarion) where the population comes of age into a pc class and racial pressure to pursue a craft. After they "prove" themselves they don't have to pursue class levels but do to the hostile nature of the world they live in most have to fight for collective survival on multiple occasions.
Golarion just wasn't set up that way.
Tat require a trait that give you a cantrip with a fixed CL of 1 or taking a caster class.
Taking a caster class often mean a bad fortitude save. The main killer in a society without modern medicine is disease. That +0 instead of a +2 can be a killer (and NPC with the commoner class will be decimated by diseases).Not to mention that guards on the battlements can still shoot things that fly with arrows.Flight still renders castles pretty stupid.Not necessarily. Enough guards and the occasional flying monster is perhaps a minor problem, but the castle is still relatively useful against opposing armies.Just like guards without walls can. Until something blows the walls up, or knocks them down or turns them into flesh.
In the real world, we pretty much gave up on the walled towns once cannon got good enough. Long before anyone had airsupport.
There are plenty of ways to take walls down in PF.
The wall adapted but the did stay. No more high e relatively thin walls, we moved to lower but wider fortifications: bastions, ravelins and so on.
Fortified cities were build till the XIX century, then they fell into disuse, not because they don't work, but because encircling a city with a wall with few entrances is economically counter-productive in the modern age.Fortifications are still in use even today, at a time in which we do war with machines that can move the front by hundred of miles in a day.
In D&D the situation is very similar. The medieval castle/walled city with walls less than 10' thick is weak, a XV century fortification with large open spaces in front and behind the walls, a width of 30' or more and made of fired bricks and packed earth is way harder to destroy.
Note that a castle wall isn't made by a single block of stone too. so rock to mud will do very little damage, as it will turn a single stone to mud, not the whole wall. Passwall will do a very narrow hole and it will require a high level caster to bypass a bastion. Disintegrate make a big hole but we are speaking of 6th level spell here, and casting it expose the wizard to counter fire.
Having 40 crosbowmen (or slingers, as bullets aren't stopped by a wind wall) ready to fire as soon as a suspected wizard poke his nose out of cover force the wizard to burn spells for defence and, if not invisible before casting, he will still incur in the risk of losing the spell to a failed concentration check.
Well placed fire from scatter weapons will keep most wizards at bay in a battlefield. Or you can have a lower level wizard with a ready fireball (acidball, lithingball etc. to force the enemy to protect against all kinds of elemental damage) fire it as soon as the suspected mage start casting. AoE almost assure a concentration check on the part of the target.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
About the OP post.
Until the advent of mechanization 90% of the population was working in agriculture to raise enough food for the population. Beside plant growth I don't see anything that directly impact cultivation. Create water can help a bit, but the quantity produce isn't so great (as someone pointed out in another thread a single 1st level caster will produce less water than a wind powered pump. Sure, you can produce it even in a area where there isn't a water table accessible for the pump, but you need a large number of casters to produce the water needed for a single village.
an animated plow that do the same work of a team of ox will cost 2.000 gp (small animated object).
Actually it will do less than the oxes. With the oxes you can use them to pull a wagon after you have finished plowing, the animated plow will do only a single work.
Maybe you could commission a large animated object in the form of a cart to do all the work of a farm tractor. 12.500 gp. My rough estimate is 1 gp = 25 €. That is 312.500 €. Very few people can afford that. And to build the construct you need a 5th level wizard (Craft wondrous item at level 3, craft weapon and armor at level 5, 5th level bonus feat for craft construct).
Then there is the problem that you raise your character level very slowly or the hard way, earning XP. So to get a 5th level wizard without adventuring we need to have him train for a lot of years. Probably he would be a 40+ years old guy in a age where most people will die of disease before becoming so old.
Wizards are:
selfish
greedy
paranoid
magic books and supplies are expensive
very few have a 16+ int
magic items are expensive
killed by demons they try to bind
roll a 1 while making magic artifacts and blow themselves up :)
|
|
3. Golarion's population is 7 billion (lowballing? maybe).Highballing it actually. The only reason we have billions of people on this planet, are the heavily mechanised agricultural and transport technology which does not exist, and the available magic does not provide the substitute.
I'm thinking of something in the 100-700 million range, tops.
This is an excellent point. I'd peg it at perhaps as much as 1 billion due to magic...but 7 billion is certainly way too high.
Absalom is one of the largest cities, if not the largest city in the Inner Sea. It has about 300,000 people. That's about the same as Cincinnati, Ohio. New York City it is not.
|
|
This is an excellent point. I'd peg it at perhaps as much as 1 billion due to magic...but 7 billion is certainly way too high.
3. Golarion's population is 7 billion (lowballing? maybe).Highballing it actually. The only reason we have billions of people on this planet, are the heavily mechanised agricultural and transport technology which does not exist, and the available magic does not provide the substitute.
I'm thinking of something in the 100-700 million range, tops.
We had a thread about that a few years ago, it is here What is the population of Golarion.
My counts say that the inner sea area would have something like 42 million people. One quarter the population of pre black Plague Europe in twice the area.
The estimated Earth population during the XIV century is 360 millions (you can find a link to a table with the estimates further down in that thread). That would give a population of 90 millions humans and demi humans in Golarion if the density in the other regions follow the Inner Sea pattern. About what we had in 500 BC.
|
|
This is an excellent point. I'd peg it at perhaps as much as 1 billion due to magic...but 7 billion is certainly way too high.
3. Golarion's population is 7 billion (lowballing? maybe).Highballing it actually. The only reason we have billions of people on this planet, are the heavily mechanised agricultural and transport technology which does not exist, and the available magic does not provide the substitute.
I'm thinking of something in the 100-700 million range, tops.
We had a thread about that a few years ago, it is here What is the population of Golarion.
My counts say that the inner sea area would have something like 42 million people. One quarter the population of pre black Plague Europe in twice the area.
The estimated Earth population during the XIV century is 360 millions (you can find a link to a table with the estimates further down in that thread). That would give a population of 90 millions humans and demi humans in Golarion if the density in the other regions follow the Inner Sea pattern. About what we had in 500 BC.
If we assume that the Inner Sea area has a relatively low population and there are areas with a higher density we can go up to 200-300 millions, but anything more is hardly credible. (Note: I am speaking of human and demi humans only)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A country like Taldor is 5,000 years old (25x the age of the US). If that were a country in the real world it would have existed since 3000 B.C. to the present day. Surely the combined works of 200 generations of wizards and sorcerers would flood the country.
There are places in the real world that have been civilized for about that long or longer -- China, India, Egypt, and most of the Middle East, for starters. Political unity and continuity are not necessarily major factors for technological progress, so the fact that at most one of these nations (China) can be regarded as having a continuous existence since that long ago does not mean much. Also, the most powerful nations do not develop in isolation -- one way or another, technological developments spread between neighboring countries so that nobody ever falls that far behind.
In the case of Golarion, magical knowledge is usable by fewer people and thus is more easily lost -- but even so, the existence of an old but dynamic culture in the Inner Sea area should be driving steady progress in magical studies.
|
|
A thing that I haven't been discussed is what fuel the magic. As we have the mana wastes where the misuse of war magic and potent spells has damaged and depleted the magic resources, making magic unreliable, we can assume that there is some kind of "fuel" for magic energy that is tapped by the magic users, and that that fuel can be depleted, stored in items and slowly replenish naturally.
Mercedes Lackey Valdemar novels see magical energy as something that is produced by living things and that permeate the ambient. Magic users learn to store or directly tap that resource, but it can be depleted. When heavily disturbed it will require a lot of work by powerful magic users or a lot of time before it restore to a normal state.
So, if we accept that assumption, a heavily magic dependent society will deplete its resources and will lose access to its magic. With all the societies with access to very powerful magic that have fallen in the past in Golarion it seem a reasonable theory.
- * -
There was a question earlier about how long a magic item will last. Adventures and books about the setting have plenty of locations with malfunctioning magic items, or magic items whose magic is falling.
Another common trope is the item that has gone dormant and need some ritual or activity to "wake up".
So I would say that magic slowly unravel, how fast depend on how much energy was in the item initially and how much it is used.
A +1 sword is a stable item, the enhancement do very little, so it will last almost forever (probably the physical item will be destroyed before the magic fade). A everburnign torch do something active, but the magic consumption is low. Probably it will last between hundred and thousand of years.
Things like the Sevenarches (sp?) in the River Kingdoms (some kind of gate to the first world) work but are very unstable and affect the surrounding area. They are 7 thousand years old or older.
I would rule that the higher the concentration of magic items is, the faster the local mana suffer from depletion. When that happen active items start to malfunction or stop working. That give a good reason why civilizations that do a heavy use of magic don't last forever and don't dominate the world.
...if my estimates were highballing, and it's only 300m...
Then Assumption 2 yields 286 people -- in the entirety of Golarion -- with Mythic Tiers, and only 286 people in, again, the whole world of 20th level. 20th level/10th tier characters, like the PCs at the end of Wrath of the Righteous? There's a 60% chance that one of those exists, somewhere. If he or she does exist, though, they're the only one at that level of power. Meaning that after WotR takes place, the population of 20th-level/10th-tier characters has at least quintupled, assuming a world population roughly equal to that of the USA.
Assumption 1 but not 2, 20th-levels fare a little better. 572 of 'em. That's still small enough that a party of 4 20th-level PCs would make up a little under 1% of the most powerful people in the world. Who are, in terms of power, the top... one sec while I quick calculate here... 0.0002% of the world.
Well, since I don't consider (personally) Golarion as being anything like Earth, real world comparisons have no meaning to me. It isn't medieval in nature as many people seem to equate it to (in my version only) Civilization is more advanced in most places and in many different ways than would be possible on earth. Better hygiene and diet would extend life spans, especially with the possibility of medicines and medical skills available. On and on there would be countless differences. This is just my take on it.
Magic is a much more permeating force to me and is much more a part of the world. Something like and yet unlike and in addition to the electromagnetic field. We use these lines of power and have nodes where they intersect the strongest and spell engines to utilize them. The great arcane colleges and smaller schools use these to create magic much more easily. In some of the more advanced and civilized nation, as well as ancient ruins sometimes, we have civic works and other various magical items/effects/works. Many places have nothing like this and many people have never seen anything magical at all in the less advanced places of the world.
Some of my reasoning has little to do with rules and more to do with the fact that a.) Arcane power is much easier to tap in my campaign for those trained and skilled in it, b.) Wizard don't always die with their boots on. Some go on to teach or retire but still need funds for continuing their studies and interests. They sell their skills to large cities/wealthy individuals/etc., They invent things and sell copies to those that can afford it and any other money making enterprise that is possible. Some legal and ethical and some not of course.
I like more magic in my version of fantasy. It's not for everyone and it's not taken in the same directions as Eberron. But it works for me.
|
|
...if my estimates were highballing, and it's only 300m...
Then Assumption 2 yields 286 people -- in the entirety of Golarion -- with Mythic Tiers, and only 286 people in, again, the whole world of 20th level. 20th level/10th tier characters, like the PCs at the end of Wrath of the Righteous? There's a 60% chance that one of those exists, somewhere. If he or she does exist, though, they're the only one at that level of power. Meaning that after WotR takes place, the population of 20th-level/10th-tier characters has at least quintupled, assuming a world population roughly equal to that of the USA.
Assumption 1 but not 2, 20th-levels fare a little better. 572 of 'em. That's still small enough that a party of 4 20th-level PCs would make up a little under 1% of the most powerful people in the world. Who are, in terms of power, the top... one sec while I quick calculate here... 0.0002% of the world.
Generally high level character live longer lives than most people after they retire from adventuring. 20th level characters and mythic characters can be immune from ageing and/or diseases, plus having access to a lot of magical curing.
Even death from old age can be cured, you only need to have a friend cast reincarnate on your remains. With a wish you can even get back your old aspect.So very high level characters are more common than what is suggested by your numbers.
Why do we assume that people with 20th-level/10-tier will be staying on Golarion (actually, why most 20th-level non mythic would)? I mean, they are individuals so powerful they can stand toe-to-toe with demigods, they are immortal, they are almost unkillable... Some will be able to travel between planets and realities on their own power, others will surely have some other mean to do it be it an outsider companion/slave, an artifact or something else... For how long would they remain on Golarion when the entire multiverse is right there for them to see?
Many won't, but some would. Some people want to get back to their home (Samwise Gamgee). Some are just interested in dedicating themselves to their studies. Some want to exert power over those who had held power over them — don't discount the idea that petty revenge is beneath a 20th-level character. Some of them come from lands where the strong rule, and where they want to prove their strength not just to themselves, but to others. For some, planar travel holds no real awe; why travel the planes when there is so much unknown about your own world?
|
...if my estimates were highballing, and it's only 300m...
Then Assumption 2 yields 286 people -- in the entirety of Golarion -- with Mythic Tiers, and only 286 people in, again, the whole world of 20th level. 20th level/10th tier characters, like the PCs at the end of Wrath of the Righteous? There's a 60% chance that one of those exists, somewhere. If he or she does exist, though, they're the only one at that level of power. Meaning that after WotR takes place, the population of 20th-level/10th-tier characters has at least quintupled, assuming a world population roughly equal to that of the USA.
Assumption 1 but not 2, 20th-levels fare a little better. 572 of 'em. That's still small enough that a party of 4 20th-level PCs would make up a little under 1% of the most powerful people in the world. Who are, in terms of power, the top... one sec while I quick calculate here... 0.0002% of the world.
Individuals of that level of power tend to be extremely long lived, allowing a disproportionate number to accumulate.
I would give for only a 60% chance of one born each generation, but you may have demigods/immortal wizards born thousands of years ago that remain active.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why do we assume that people with 20th-level/10-tier will be staying on Golarion (actually, why most 20th-level non mythic would)? I mean, they are individuals so powerful they can stand toe-to-toe with demigods, they are immortal, they are almost unkillable... Some will be able to travel between planets and realities on their own power, others will surely have some other mean to do it be it an outsider companion/slave, an artifact or something else... For how long would they remain on Golarion when the entire multiverse is right there for them to see?
Ability and desire are two different things.
What if an immortal just wants a quiet, normal life in the countryside?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Individuals of that level of power tend to be extremely long lived, allowing a disproportionate number to accumulate.On the other hand they also tend to be targets of people in the same level of power, who in many cases will find ways to kill their targets permanently. That's a heavy limiting factor.
Keep in mind there are ways to cut people off from their mythic abilities.... Severance comes to mind.
Only if they are a big problem for the other guy. If the character want to stay home and control his territory or even slowly expand, he will use minions, not risk himself directly against similarly empowered characters.
It is what Razmir is doing.The queen of the elves see him as a menace, but she don't attack him directly, nor Razmir barge in Kionin to slay her. A 20th level character in Taldor will hardly care about a 20th level character in Varisia unless they are clashing over something. You fight with your neighbours or with people that has something that interest you, not with a random guy 3.000 km away.
A buffed group of 5-6 level 14 characters can easily kill a unbuffed and not fully equipped 20th level character, so those character will have bases that reduce the risk of scry and fry tactics (not that I think that they work as well as some people claim). No one can keep being fully buffed 24 hours every day forever or want to do it. You want to be able to bathe, take a nap and so on. That mean that higher level characters will go around slaying people only when it is needed, not when they hear that another 20th level character live somewhere. And that is one of the reasons why they are less influential than they power warrant.
To me the reason Golarion is so bereft of magic is a lack of an industrial revolution. Before the Industrial revolutions of the Real-World, large steel technology was rare. Steam powered stuff was virtually unheard of. Manufacturing took place in your house. You wanted something you needed to go find someone with the expertise to build it and the willingness to trade for your resources. The Industrial Revolution came and the ability to centralize and distribute the productions of goods increased exponentially. The steam engine greatly increased mining, refining, and distribution. The process of creating tech became streamlined, efficient, and cheaper.
Magic crafting is a long process that does not really have much ability to be increased. Crafting takes a day per 1000gp and means of expediting this are few, even if you add more people. As I understand, untrained labor is something like 1sp per day and would comprise a majority of the labor force. Most people simply can not afford a 50gp potion (and making magic items is a literal feat which not many PCs invest in.) 50gp is something that would take a quarter of their yearly wages. Magic casters are also rare. Sure they pop up naturally from time to time but disease or other natural or not so natural hazards would claim most before they would have time to learn the necessary spells to cure or sufficiently protect themselves. Magic is simply not as efficient as you can see comparied to the technology. Probably why the Technic League is so careful about its secrets.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Unskilled labor is one sp per day, plus room and board.
But, like the real world, I'm not sure that would be the majority. Most 'laborers' have a trade, via a craft or profession skill, and use that.
|
|
Unskilled labor is one sp per day, plus room and board.
But, like the real world, I'm not sure that would be the majority. Most 'laborers' have a trade, via a craft or profession skill, and use that.
You're technically right, I was misremembering the downtime rules slightly...but anyone with Wis 10 can do "skilled labor" with an untrained Profession check and get 1 gp. So it's hardly uncommon.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm surprised that this thread has reached its third page with scarcely a mention of the most important answer to this question. We have a canon example of exactly this kind of society: the Shory Empire and their flying cities! If you want a glimpse of what a world with ubiquitous arcane magic looks like, check out the article "Rise and Fall of the Shory Empire," in AP #83: "The Slave Trenches of Hakotep" -- it's no surprise that the height of Shory society was basically a golden age of invention and prosperity. Grand towers of glass and skymetal with invisible skybridges, electro-thaumatic heating, marid-fueled cisterns of endless elemental water, fey-infused hanging gardens...just the sort of things you might imagine from a magical society that makes the modern world "look like a bunch of ants scratching in the dirt."
You're certainly right to bracket the question of divine magic: the gods are inscrutable, and we don't know what sorts of limitations they might impose upon the use and abuse of their blessings, nor will we ever know. Importantly, the Shory did the same thing themselves, abandoning shamanism and divine magic for the practice of wizardry -- which makes them a perfect case study in exactly the question you have asked. Is there a good in-game reason why arcane magic isn't everywhere?
Outlining a few points in an attempt to answer that question:
- First, the game rules are a necessarily incomplete depiction of what magic can do. How did the Shory accomplish all of their amazing feats, anyway? According to "Rise and Fall of the Shory Empire," the centerpiece of their sky-cities is an invention called the well of abundance -- which, notably, does NOT get stats in the book. We know it's an arcane power source that can, at the very least, do the following: recharge magic items, awaken and power constructs (hailstone golems, to be exact), and imbue every citizen with at-will spell-like abilities of at least 1st level. The well of abundance is almost definitely a major artifact, which should give you an idea of what it might take to attain arcane ubiquity.
- Not to mention the Shory's greatest achievement of all: the power of Aeromantic Infandibulum itself, the great rituals that marked out areas of the earth and lifted them wholesale into the air. Basically, rites and rituals -- like artifacts -- can accomplish things far outside of the game rules, pretty much limited only by an author's worldbuilding imagination, and scarcely an Adventure Path goes by without at least one such ritual taking place. (Wrath of the Righteous had at least three.) Most of the major magical developments in the world appear to occur not as a result of "ordinary" 1st- through 9th-level spells, but from such "outside-the-rules" uses of magic (see Nex and Geb).
- But the inverse of the first point is also true: there are probably good reasons why an at-will fabricate engine doesn't seem to exist, even though the item crafting rules suggest it should only be 90,000 gp. These rules are guidelines that (like the adventuring economy itself) simply tend to break down mechanically, especially at high levels. But perhaps there are also good in-game reasons why they don't exist. One thing that comes to mind is that such an item in the hands of humans (rather than a demigod in its realm) destabilizes the balance of order and chaos, creation and destruction. Which brings me to my next point...
- There are, as previous posters have rightly pointed out, any number of ways for even a technologically advanced society to fail on Golarion. First and foremost, the multiverse is full of powerful outsiders far beyond humanoid imagining; insatiable demons, implacable inevitables, ravenous qlippoths, inscrutable aeons, any of which in sufficient numbers could eradicate a mortal city. (See the fall of Kho, and the Tarrasque. Or, if you prefer, the Worldwound completely wiping Sarkoris off the map.) Generally, it's only the delicate balance of power between worlds and planes, between the armies of good and evil, that allows mortal life to thrive at all.
- The possibility for self-destruction is everpresent. See Ulduvai, one of the very sky-cities that actually accomplished arcane ubiquity -- which fell when its masters summoned a g**d*mn shoggoth into the middle of the city. And this is far from abnormal; the individual wizard who wants to entice a djinn or demon to do his bidding has a nontrivial risk of that entity breaking free and wreaking havoc. While such pitfalls are often overlooked in typical gameplay, arcane magic in the world of Pathfinder is actually fraught with risk. There are numerous examples of enchantments unraveling or becoming unstable over time, catastrophic mishaps that result in everything from cursed items to DEMON RIFTS OPENING ON THE MOON (seriously, go look that one up if you don't know about it yet).
- And, as Diego Rossi points out above, we don't really know the limitations of arcane magic itself. Is it possible for a magical society to deplete its local "source" of magic? How do magic-dead or unreliable sites like the Mana Wastes come to be? Arcane magic may not be dependent on the caprice of the gods, but it has its own laws and underlying forces that are far from fully understood.
- Finally, social forces have incalculably complex effects on technological development of any kind. (More than one Shory city fell as a result of civil war or conflict with other nations, despite their arcane supremacy.) Instigating a magical industrial revolution requires social stability and infrastructure of a kind hardly seen on Golarion. It would take widespread education initiatives, advances in medicine both mundane and magical, a shift away from subsistence farming to economies of scale...the list goes on. "Rise and Fall of the Shory Empire" emphasizes not only the Shory's mastery of air, which kept them out of danger from many of their Rovagug-worshiping enemies, but their social mores: a sustained focus on arcane research, diplomacy, and trade. The success of their society depended on this confluence of customs and social structures -- and when those values frayed and faltered, so did the empire.
That article didn't exist at the time of this thread. Thanks, though!
I've always gone with the assumption that even wizards need some sort of "genetic" predisposition for magic to be capable of it.
Or, more generally, it's in the blood. Either you can work magic, or you can't.
|
Dictators have no desire to become academics.
Academics lack the social manipulative skills to become dictators.
If an academic comes up with an invention that might upset the balance of power, they get stamped on them pretty quickly by the non-academic rich and powerful.
In my opinion if Golarion was real, wizards would keep pretty quiet about spells like Charm, Knock, Invisibility and Fly.
Low-level adepts I think would be a different matter - sort of like magical serfs. Nothing wrong with magic that allows a lazy stupid but ruthless elite to live a life of luxury at other people's expense.
Richard
|
Some scholars argue that the social upheavals in the aftermath of the black death were the crucial impetus that lifted Europe out of the stagnancy dating back to the dark ages.
Kill off enough of Golarion's peasantry and serfs, and the labor will have to be made up by SOMETHING. Magical technologies would be a ready answer for every day applications once there are no longer enough slaves/peasants/serfs to go around to empty all the chamber pots, harvest all the grain, etc.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kill off enough of Golarion's peasantry and serfs, and the labor will have to be made up by SOMETHING. Magical technologies would be a ready answer for every day applications once there are no longer enough slaves/peasants/serfs to go around to empty all the chamber pots, harvest all the grain, etc.
That would make for a great arc villain for a larger campaign.
|
|
As long as the serfs remained serfs, I don't think the ruling classes would care how they did it.
Any spell that basically allows a worker to work better is going to be fine. Create Water and Mending are ok for example. Anything that undermines authority is going to cause problems. Even something like Cure Light Wounds could fall into that category - when an overseer beats up a peasant, that peasant is supposed to suffer, not get cured up to full health again in a few seconds.
Richard
|
|
Kill off enough of Golarion's peasantry and serfs, and the labor will have to be made up by SOMETHING. Magical technologies would be a ready answer for every day applications once there are no longer enough slaves/peasants/serfs to go around to empty all the chamber pots, harvest all the grain, etc.That would make for a great arc villain for a larger campaign.
Indeed. An uber-necromancer springs immediately to mind. Not only can he offer zombies that work 24 hours a day without all those mewling complaints that slaves offer, if he can engineer a mass disaster that requires new labor solutions due to a sufficient winnowing of the lower classes... why then there'd be tons of corpses available to animate.
|
|
(work's a bit boring today ;-) )
I don't think you would want to allow zombies anywhere near your food-chain.
Skeletons possibly, though you might still want to stick them through the sheep-dip every now and then.
I'm also sure that neither of them, being mindless undead, would be capable of even the sort of basic agriculture which serfs are capable of. And you'd gradually lose them through wear and tear as zombies and skeletons don't reproduce.
Remember also that the local nobility likes to go frolicking around the peasantry for a bit of R&R from time to time. Skeletons and zombies aren't very sexy. More to the point being a ruler is all about having lots of people in thrall to you. No demagogue is going to get a thrill out of ruling over a bunch of dancing bones.
Richard
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Geb does exactly that. The zombies and skeletons are either maintained with an occasional burst of negative energy, or replaced with fresh undead made froma humanoid slave kept for breeding purposes.
Possibly increasing efficiency by making zombies out of the remains of a vampire's meal and skeletons out of the remains of a ghoul's meal.
Why doesn't every common person in the street train as a wizard? Because mother nature min-maxes for Constitution and Charisma, not Intelligence...
:)
I don't think so. Liches are generally portrayed as being beyond physical needs.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
someone might want an apocalyptic dieoff in order to remove easy labor to facilitate greater acceptance of magic without being a necromancer, too.
I could see a Nethysian, fanatical wizard believing that engineering a massive die-off is a means to a Good* end.
*= Where 'Good' is completely debatable, and much more like a Huxley-ian "Brave New Arcane World"
*beginning evil mastermind logic*
People won't accept everyday use of Unseen Servants when they already have flesh and blood servants, afterall! No need to worry about Locksmiths Unions standing in the way of widespread deployment of Hold Portal spells when THERE ARE NO MORE LOCKSMITHS!
In the end, greater use of magic by everyone would make for a utopia for everyone left alive! Those who'd have to be removed from the picture to make it happen surely wouldn't begrudge the better lives those who survive them will get to enjoy!
Some scholars argue that the social upheavals in the aftermath of the black death were the crucial impetus that lifted Europe out of the stagnancy dating back to the dark ages.
Kill off enough of Golarion's peasantry and serfs, and the labor will have to be made up by SOMETHING. Magical technologies would be a ready answer for every day applications once there are no longer enough slaves/peasants/serfs to go around to empty all the chamber pots, harvest all the grain, etc.
Although unlike Earth, Golarion is full of non-human creatures which could supplant the human population.
Massive die off of the population just allows Lizardfolk, Goblins, etc to gain back territory.
|
|
I watched The Day the Universe Changed, by James Burke, part 5, last night - the episode dealing with gravity.
(I'm a real fan of James Burke, BTW)
Nicolaus Copernicus' discovered that the earth moved around the sun and published his book in 1543 (De revolutionibus).
It was denounced a couple of years later in a book called "On the Truth of Sacred Scripture", though no real action was taken against it for about 60 years while people tried to figure out whether it mattered.
It was not then until 1758 that the book was removed from the list of prohibited books by the Catholic Church, and even then only the "annotated" version. It took another 100 years before the original was allowed.
It is this sort of behaviour that backs up my feelings that the people who hold the reins of power do not give up those reins easily. You get little hiccoughs in history every now and then as new things get discovered which the rich and powerful didn't see coming or know how to deal with, but eventually money and power wins through.
In my opinion, arcane magic practitioners in Golarion, beyond users of work-a-day serf-style magic, would either be outlawed or strictly controlled. Divine magic practitioners would also have to know their place - lest Golarion repeats our own state-law vs divine-law tensions (wars) that we've had more or less since civilisation began.
Richard