As the topic implies, I'm curious what cards people use a lot of, and will be missed without them being included in the next set.
To start things off, I'm going to put swipe, mokmuran's club, and the staff of heaven and earth on my list.
Swipe is imo the best combat card in the game, mainly because of it's versatility. lowering a combat check and giving you decent dice are really nice, but adding auto acquire into the same package rockets it ahead of other combat spells, even ones that do more damage. plus, it's both divine and arcane.
Mokmuran's club is amazing: you get 1d10 base, but instead of recharging or discarding it, you get to discard another card to add another d10. all good things, but the real kicker is that it heals you when you hit things with it. Every character I've played that uses melee weapons has used it almost exclusively as a melee weapon.
Finally, The Staff of Heaven and Earth. I play it for one reason, and one reason alone: the ability to discard a spell to bypass any barrier. Imo, if you're caster, you should be using this card over masterwork tools, as it's not limited to bypassing only difficulty 14 or lower barriers.
So, that's my $.02. What do you guys think?
I can't imagine my Sajan's deck without two Staffs of Minor Healing, although I'll agree with you in saying that our Ezren seems a bit obsessed with Swipe
Wand of Enervation is a big one for me. From the first time we played, it's probably been the loot we most look forward to every play-through. It's such a game-changing effect, and on a sorcerer it will automatically recharge.
Augury and Scrying are also big for me. I love being able to stack a deck with those, and will miss them dearly if they don't make the cut.
Also, we're going to miss Father Zantus and Poog, the great support healers of the team.
And I agree with The_Napier, staff of minor healing is a fixture of our teams from start to finish.
Charmed Red Dragon is probably my favorite card. Will definitely miss them. I always miss Lini (even when playing with my other 2 solo groups) in her current incarnation... she is s destroyer of worlds with an animal by her side. Saber Toothed Tiger, Deathbane Light Crossbow... Sign of Wrath has become a new favorite.
But mostly, I'm looking forward to seeing new things with way more new characters than I'll be able to keep up with.
So, I'm curious about something. We don't adjudicate social contract issues, but this seems worth asking.
Let's pick a popular card, such as Staff of Minor Healing. Let's say, hypothetically, that you know it's not in Skull & Shackles, but it is in one or more of the class decks.
Does knowing that give you a reason to shuffle one or more class decks into Skull & Shackles? Would you put them all in, or just the ones you thought would improve the boon pool the way you wanted?
Mike
Personally I would only use the class decks for classes I'm playing with, and I may not even do that (cause I tend to do a few different playthroughs (I'm around 20 right now) and I would hate to cycle through the character decks like that, so I might just have whatever character replace a card gained during the adventure with a card of equal set from the character deck.
I know, however, that most people are not playing sheer amount of games that I am.
This is going to be my approach:
The only way I'm mixing in cards from a class deck or from anywhere outside of the adventure path is if there is a card that the character needs that isn't present in the Base Set. (i.e. I want to play a Gunslinger in Rise of the Runelords. Lets say hypothetically a Gunslinger class deck exists.) If such a case arises, I'm only adding the necessary cards. (i.e. Just the guns. Not other weapons, and not other types of cards.)
The reason being, I want the experience to be as much like how the Adventure Path should be as possible. So I'd only mix in the specific cards that were necessary for the character to work.
Some reasons I can see a character needing a card or cards. (And remember this is only if that type of card or cards didn't exist in the adventure path.) In order of necessity:
1. Traits The "Firearm" trait for the Gunslinger. Perhaps the Liquid trait for Drunken Master Sajan.
2. A particular blessing that a power works with. If there were no Blessings of Gorum in Skull and Shackles and I was going to play Amiri.
3. Some function that would be missing. If all the Skull and Shackles Melee weapons didn't have a discard power for Valeros to use his power with. Drunken Master Sajan would go here if all the Liquid boons in an adventure path weren't banished when played. Though potentially the Melee weapons that aren't discarded and the Liquid boons that aren't banished would be better than what I'd mix in, so this may not be necessary.
4. If I felt like a card was "that character's card." This would be a "maybe" category. I know all the cards tend to work for multiple characters, but there are still some examples of cards that I think are really designed to interact with what a particular character can do. This goes beyond traits or direct interaction between a character's powers and a card. There is a particular character and card that were in Skull and Shackles playtest that I think make the perfect example of this, but I don't want to give anything away. I've actually been playing that character from the playtest in RotR without the card I'm thinking of and doing just fine and having fun, so I'm not totally convinced this one is necessary. In RotR the best example that comes to mind right now might be Illusionist Ezren and Enfeeble. It gives him the option to put the evaded monster on the top or bottom of the deck. Seems tailor made for him.
The Staff of Minor Healing, while a great card, wouldn't seem to keep any character from functioning. So it wouldn't rise to the level of requiring mixing in my mind.
So, I'm curious about something. We don't adjudicate social contract issues, but this seems worth asking.
Let's pick a popular card, such as Staff of Minor Healing. Let's say, hypothetically, that you know it's not in Skull & Shackles, but it is in one or more of the class decks.
Does knowing that give you a reason to shuffle one or more class decks into Skull & Shackles? Would you put them all in, or just the ones you thought would improve the boon pool the way you wanted?
Mike
I don't think I would want to do anything that would overly skew the power level of the box. I think what I might do in that hypothetical situation, if anything, would be to look for something of comparable power and remove that.
But its all speculative until I have everything in front of me in a month... then I'll decide how to deal with all the content that we'll have to work with.
I'm guessing our first (and possibly second as well) play of S&S will be original box only. I think, if we're going to put any cards from a class deck in, then the whole box should go in, because otherwise you're just self-selecting power cards, causing the overall strength to go up. Depending on our experience, I can see either dumping just the classes we're playing in, or just putting all class decks in to have a massive card pool.
The only way I'm mixing in cards from a class deck or from anywhere outside of the adventure path is if there is a card that the character needs that isn't present in the Base Set. (i.e. I want to play a Gunslinger in Rise of the Runelords. Lets say hypothetically a Gunslinger class deck exists.) If such a case arises, I'm only adding the necessary cards. (i.e. Just the guns. Not other weapons, and not other types of cards.)
This specific subject has come up when we've discussed whether and how to do a Gunslinger class deck. Essentially, the deck has to function almost exclusively on its own, because there's no guarantee that the contents of the adventure path will help the character thrive at all.
Augury and Scrying are also big for me. I love being able to stack a deck with those, and will miss them dearly if they don't make the cut.
VERY true
I'm with Isiac. For an individual class deck it will definitely be all or nothing. I will probably only shuffle in the character decks for the character classes that are actually in the party though. I would also like to have a deck for all the characters involved in the game, which may limit my options for using them in S&S until some more character decks come out.
Having said that, I can see myself in a situation where I just put all available decks together and have fun.
So, I'm curious about something. We don't adjudicate social contract issues, but this seems worth asking.
Let's pick a popular card, such as Staff of Minor Healing. Let's say, hypothetically, that you know it's not in Skull & Shackles, but it is in one or more of the class decks.
Does knowing that give you a reason to shuffle one or more class decks into Skull & Shackles? Would you put them all in, or just the ones you thought would improve the boon pool the way you wanted?
Mike
To turn this question around somewhat, and to bring it out of the context of a social contract, what is the current thinking on this with regards to Organized Play and future Adventure Paths?
I am assuming that the intent of class decks is that they be used in future OP, rather than purchasing new class decks every time an AP is released. If there aren't any firearms in the Wrath of the Righteous AP, will it be painful to play a character that relies on them during Organized Play? Sure you can sub in cards from your deck between scenarios, but during the scenario it seems you may be at a disadvantage.
Admittedly, this may not be as relevant as I am expecting, as I really only loosely have an idea of how OP is going to work.
Back to the original question, I think the above responses have a similar attitude to my own. However, I may have a different feel for what a character "needs". Which is to say, they may still be functional with some cards, but may actually need other cards to have the right flavor and story appeal for me to be using that character in the first place.
Wand of Enervation is a big one for me. From the first time we played, it's probably been the loot we most look forward to every play-through. It's such a game-changing effect, and on a sorcerer it will automatically recharge.
Augury and Scrying are also big for me. I love being able to stack a deck with those, and will miss them dearly if they don't make the cut.
Also, we're going to miss Father Zantus and Poog, the great support healers of the team.
And I agree with The_Napier, staff of minor healing is a fixture of our teams from start to finish.
I also enjoy augury and scrying, but I tend not to take those in my casting focused character's decks as they can take away from my capability to effectively fight things, but I will always go out of my way to pick one up when I see it dropped.
My favorite healing ally is the Shaman. so much love for him, cause he made us not fail the road to xin shalast the first time my main group played through it (a shaman let the player playing seoni heal a card that bought her the necessary card when she was forced to discard the top card of her deck shortly thereafter).
As I tend to play divine casters more than any other type, I found the staves of healing marginally less useful than with melee characters.
I am assuming that the intent of class decks is that they be used in future OP, rather than purchasing new class decks every time an AP is released. If there aren't any firearms in the Wrath of the Righteous AP, will it be painful to play a character that relies on them during Organized Play? Sure you can sub in cards from your deck between scenarios, but during the scenario it seems you may be at a disadvantage.
You are exactly mirroring our line of thinking here when we talk about Lirianne and friends. Similar issues could come up with an Alchemist deck in a path without many potions, for example. So we're working on it.
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On the topic of "favorite cards": there are no cards in Runelords that I would say I absolutely have to have in Skull & Shackles, or that I would overly miss. I really do think that each adventure path should be taken on its own terms, and I have a lot of confidence that Paizo / Lone Shark have put together a set of cards that should be evaluated as a whole. Augury and Scrying are cool, for sure, but there may be good reason not to include them in a different AP.
It is these differences that have the ability to add new challenges and change the formula of the game, keeping it fresh. Adding "all my favorite boons from other APs / class decks" into a game would, I believe, make all the APs seem overly similar, and I think I'd start to enjoy the game less as a result.
On class decks, and the mixing in thereof:
Without knowing what's in them, exactly, I'd add the entirety of any class deck into any adventure path where I was using a character of that type - if, that is, the class decks contain enough unique cards to make that worthwhile. If it's just adding more of the same (e.g., if the Bard deck has no magical instruments, for example, but just a lot of the same items found in Runelords / Skull & Shackles), then I wouldn't, or might only add the unique items.
I am not sure that Lirianne would be at a huge disadvantage in a set with no firearms, assuming that she has skills that could be used with that set (e.g., can use bows & crossbows found in a scenario, at least until the end of the scenario to sub it out for things from the class deck).
I'm assuming there will be blessings in the class decks. Probably even BotGs. I see no reason to mix them in, or really any of the blessings assuming those same blessings are present in the adventure path.
And I agree with Calthaer, even if a character will find all the cards of a certain type undesirable, they will probably be serviceable until the end of the scenario, when they can be swapped when rebuilding. That will actually be more advantageous than the current non-OP situation. There are sometimes scenarios where Valeros doesn't acquire any Melee weapons or Ezren doesn't acquire an Arcane spell. But if Valeros can swap a Ranged weapon for a Melee one at the end of the scenario or Ezren swap a Divine spell for an Arcane one, then they will be getting quicker access to desirable cards. So even if Lirianne has to make due with a Light Crossbow, or even a Longsword, during a scenario, I'd find it fine since she'd be better at the end of the scenario than she was at the beginning.
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So, I'm curious about something. We don't adjudicate social contract issues, but this seems worth asking.
Let's pick a popular card, such as Staff of Minor Healing. Let's say, hypothetically, that you know it's not in Skull & Shackles, but it is in one or more of the class decks.
Does knowing that give you a reason to shuffle one or more class decks into Skull & Shackles? Would you put them all in, or just the ones you thought would improve the boon pool the way you wanted?
Mike
Honestly, I love the idea of being able to mix whatever I want. However, I hate the thought of actually doing it. If I saw every character from class decks, S&S, and RotRL, found one class deck character that I loved more than my own family, and would kill to play it -- if I felt he needed just one card from the class deck shuffled into S&S to play him outside OP, I'd say "Well, that sucks. Guess he's staying in OP". I can't stand not playing games the original way, expansions being the exception (true expansions, that were really made to be mixed in)
I have not seen the contents of a typical char deck yet but adding a full deck would seem to be wrong. For one thing the character deck has cards of different levels so first off you would only add the cards that are of the appropriate level.
Second point is by adding a lot of basic cards you are reducing the chance of getting any of the good cards later in the game. This is something I figured out too late in Rise of the runelords when I added in the full character expansion pack in a 4 player game.
Third point is I thought the concept of the character decks was to keep the cards seperate so players could go there own ways at the end of the day with out having to sort out who's cards were who's.
So if adding cards to a base set please do it with care.
On the topic of "favorite cards": there are no cards in Runelords that I would say I absolutely have to have in Skull & Shackles, or that I would overly miss. I really do think that each adventure path should be taken on its own terms, and I have a lot of confidence that Paizo / Lone Shark have put together a set of cards that should be evaluated as a whole. Augury and Scrying are cool, for sure, but there may be good reason not to include them in a different AP.
It is these differences that have the ability to add new challenges and change the formula of the game, keeping it fresh. Adding "all my favorite boons from other APs / class decks" into a game would, I believe, make all the APs seem overly similar, and I think I'd start to enjoy the game less as a result.
yeah, I'm very much taking part in this thread for the 'will miss' rather than 'hope to see again' aspect. I entirely second what you say here
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@Jorsalheim: I feel you on being excited to play with some of the new characters. I'll probably start my S&S at home play with the Swashbuckler, Alchemist, Witch, and Warpriest. Then once I run them through one time, I might switch out the Swashbuckler for Ranzak and try a few of my class deck characters in place of some of those others. Either way, I'm sure I'm going to be playing a LOT of scenarios between my own play at home and my organizing the OP scenarios at my local game store.
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On the topic of cards that I hope to be there, I'm going to go slightly off-topic to list a card that was not in the last set, but will be in S&S: a Dire Rat Ally.
To set the scene, in the S&S RPG game that we will be finishing up in August (perfect timing), I have a Ratfolk Druid character, who is fighting for fair treatment of rats on ships. In the first scenario (slight spoilers) there is an encounter you are supposed to have against Dire Rats, which he ended calmly by talking them down, and the group proceeded for the rest of the adventure to work together to keep these rats hidden from the officers of the ship. It was fun and hilarious. So, yeah, that's my big hope, that one of the animal allies we see is a rat *fingers crossed*
Also, in another amazing twist of fate, just about my entire team from that adventure is actually in the ACG, which just makes it seem fated (I have a Witch, Druid, Gunslinger, Inquisitor (close enough to Warpriest), and Ninja (close enough to Rogue), plus a recurring character that's a Swashbuckler, and another that's a Magus.
Screw that...I'm mixing everything together!
At some point I'll have to take out some cards. I'm not going to want 50 cure spells and some cards I probably won't use because they're set specific. I seen somewhere a class ability that uses plunder and in the long run I don't think plunder will be used beyond S&S so I doubt I'll be using that class.
I've worked on a few homemade adventure paths so the more options available the better.
And I agree with Calthaer, even if a character will find all the cards of a certain type undesirable, they will probably be serviceable until the end of the scenario, when they can be swapped when rebuilding.
Just pulling Hawkmoon's comment out as representative of some others.
My concern isn't in a specific scenario, or between scenarios, but in an entire AP that doesn't have opportunities for my character to do what they do best.
Let's take Ezren as an extreme example. Ezren needs spells in the location decks, not only to function well, but to FEEL like Ezren. Yes he can bring some along in his own deck, but without the interaction with that type of card in the location decks, he just feels half there.
There are scenarios in RotR where this happens to Ezren. The spells are scarce and you lose, or at least lessen, one of his defining features. This isn't horrible, however, as you also have a normal distribution of spells in many scenarios, and even a few scenarios where spells are plentiful. But imagine if there were entire Adventure Paths where the spells were super scarce, or even non-existent. Playing Ezren, or any character deck reliant on spells, would quickly become tedious.
Admittedly, this is unlikely to happen with spells, but I hope it at least illustrates the point. I am flexible enough to look at an AP (or OP season), realize that a spell user would not fit well in that AP, and select a different character/ character deck to play. However, not everyone is going to be that open to setting aside character deck they bought for OP and possibly having to buy another.
Is this a game breaking concern? Not at all. But it is something to consider when designing APs and OP seasons, and especially when determining how to officially handle character decks in OP.
Cards I would miss (to contribute to the actual topic):
Toad
Deathbane Crossbow
Father Zantus
Sabretooth Tiger
Shalelu Andosana
Mostly, the cards I would miss are more due to flavor and art than utility. I imagine that the function we lose will either be replaced with something similar, or something just as cool and useful.
Not only the effects, but the art on the card is also awesome! I guess it will be available at least in some class decks if not in the next AP.
Sabertooth Tiger
It MUST be available for Lini!
I'm not sure the tiger would be all that appropriate for S&S. I'm sure there's gonna be animal allies like parrot, sea gull, shark, dolphin ... you get the idea. Who knows, maybe we'll get a sabertooth shark :P
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I will give you a clue: If a card is directly tied to specific Rise of the Runelords story content (such as Mokmurian's Club or Shopkeeper's Daughter), don't expect to see it in a future AP. (However, don't rule out seeing it in a future class deck...)
The Shopkeeper's Daughter's Son in a future bard class deck maybe? :)
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What she would really need is her snow leopard... but that would fit into the AP even less than the tiger. If we get a druid class deck I hope we get Droogami in some form.As I have no way to participate in OP I'll have to see if I got room to run three different groups at home. One S&S, One RotR and probably one with the OP scenarios.
I've had the RotR just laying out on my desk the last couple of months (half year) for me to sneak in a play whenever I've had the time. Three different groups needs a little more space...Who knows, maybe we'll get a sabertooth shark :PThat will be the Sabertooth Tiger Shark?
You may think it fits in less well, but you might be surprised when the cards are in front of you... let's just say that those characters who have specific pets are more likely to see them represented in Skull & Shackles. :-D
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Oh! It seems I have to buy S&S whatever happens! :DYou may think it fits in less well, but you might be surprised when the cards are in front of you... let's just say that those characters who have specific pets are more likely to see them represented in Skull & Shackles. :-D
What she would really need is her snow leopard... but that would fit into the AP even less than the tiger. If we get a druid class deck I hope we get Droogami in some form.
Yeah, I imagine that if you look through all the cards in S&S, even if you weren't terribly interested in running through all the S&S scenarios, there are some cards in there that you will want to put into your RotRL deck for those characters to make use of.