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The lack of want and need stifles innovation. In areas where magic is prevalent, having higher technology simply isn't necessary. The Mana Wastes and Alkenstar are a prime example of this in action.
They needed a substitute for magic to survive, so technology in the region surged forward.
To say they both exist at the same time, often breaks verisimilitude because it doesn't make any sense for them to develop alongside one another. Whichever one fills the need first disrupts the need for the other.
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Just as a quick note, since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned here already - while the 6 shots per second is unrealistic even for the 17th-century period of the Three Musketeers, firearms have been in use since at least the early 15th century. I will admit that the guns as detailed in PF are more advanced than the C15th versions.
Full plate as Pathfinder describes it is from 15th century - the period of the Wars of the Roses - so having the two together (along with crossbows and lonbows) is not anachronistic. Somewhat ironically, the arrival of plate armour meant that only bucklers and pavaises (tower shields) really saw any use any more, so the image of a full-plated knight with a sword and shield *is* an anachronism.
Of course, PF is only loosely based on our history at best - even without guns, the mix of weapon and armour technologies found in any Pathfinder Lodge would span several centuries of Earth's history - so in the end it's up to each DM to decide for themselves.
PF isn't based on our history AT ALL at least as canon story-wise things go.
It's another planet in a galaxy far far away taking place at the same time as we here on Earth are posting this or whatever.
So really using real world logic doesn't work at all. Maybe these muskets are super easy to load for <Insert reason here>.
Maybe people are getting way to wound up on the realism of a game.
I know I don't play Dishonored and go "Ooooh that pistol reloads way too fast for a Victorian era analogue ooooooooooooooooh I'm so maaaaaaaaad".
Admittedly it's more of a Steampunk setting, but still.
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I know story-wise it isn't based on any period in our history - I for one prefer the broader range of options available(not to mention the inclusion of magic and monsters).
I just thought it might be interesting to note that anyone who claims that guns & "Arthurian" knights in full plate can't be in the same place together because "it's anachronistic" was wrong...
@Ravingdork,
I dunno, man, I feel like if I was a wizard with a genius level intellect I'd be interested in mundane sciences as well. I mean, hell, I can throw lightning bolts, but I can't imagine the lightbulb?
I totally get where you're coming from though, just playing devil's advocate.
@Ravingdork,
I dunno, man, I feel like if I was a wizard with a genius level intellect I'd be interested in mundane sciences as well. I mean, hell, I can throw lightning bolts, but I can't imagine the lightbulb?
I totally get where you're coming from though, just playing devil's advocate.
Numeria sounds like the place for you then. :D
(I love how Pathfinder has something for everyone.)
When I first realized how fast gunslingers could fire their guns I struggled a bit with the imagery - even for a "magical world", firing 7-8 shots with a flintlock musket in a 6-second round was jarring.
However, rather than banning the class entirely I found that gunslingers become much more "palatable" when I mentally disconnected Golarion's firearms from the early firearm designs in the real world.
For me the basic firearm in Pathfinder occupies an area somewhere between "flintlock" and revolvers. As the gunslinger levels up, starts to use various feats and equipment options to improve his reload speed, he continues to tweak and modify his personal firearms to improve their efficiency. The form those modifications take are entirely up to the gunslinger and has no gameplay impact, it's purely to provide "fluff" justification for the rapid rate of fire.
It could be anything really: A tiny demon bound to his firearm chamber, an internally rotating drum magazine, adding oodles and oodles of barrels to his gun and using speedloaders, a crude stripper clip modification...
No other aspect of the game is forced to be subject ro reality and neither should guns be.
The game allows me to fire a Longbow 2 arrows at once followed by 4-5 more shots and this is such a part of the genre no one has an issue.
First the rules for guns in pf as a GAME mechanic are fine. There are only a few issues and every OMG the gunslinger is ruining our game thread involves them.
Musketmaster pistolero and double guns.
You will never see somone complain that the gunslinger in his game wielding a single pepperbox pistol is ruining the game.
The gunslinger is a great class that does a lot of interesting things but only one aspect has issues.
For those proposing single slow firing weapons its a horrible idea and does not work in the constraints of pf.
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No other aspect of the game is forced to be subject ro reality and neither should guns be.
The game allows me to fire a Longbow 2 arrows at once followed by 4-5 more shots and this is such a part of the genre no one has an issue.
A bit off-topic but that's actually not unrealistic at all.
Here's an example link of a guy who can fire 10 arrows in less than 5 seconds. So...yeah, 7 arrows in 6 seconds is very solid for a skilled archer.
I'll also note that Pathfinder firearms have to be breech loading rather than muzzle loading, basically because there are cartridges available. There's not even a way to do that with a muzzle loader, nor does it make much sense. And it's a lot easier to imagine reloading a breechloader with cartridges that fast than to imagine something like that with a muzzle loader.
In fact, here's a video of that as well. That shows him taking something like 4 seconds per shot to reload...but his hands are shaking and it's clearly not something he does often. Those are later breech-loaders, but still it doesn't seem horribly implausible.
I'll also note that Pathfinder firearms have to be breech loading rather than muzzle loading, basically because there are cartridges available. There's not even a way to do that with a muzzle loader, nor does it make much sense. And it's a lot easier to imagine reloading a breechloader with cartridges that fast than to imagine something like that with a muzzle loader.
You, and the other people making the same claim, need to re-read what Pathfinder calls "cartridges" for primitive firearms.
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You, and the other people making the same claim, need to re-read what Pathfinder calls "cartridges" for primitive firearms.
I'll also note that Pathfinder firearms have to be breech loading rather than muzzle loading, basically because there are cartridges available. There's not even a way to do that with a muzzle loader, nor does it make much sense. And it's a lot easier to imagine reloading a breechloader with cartridges that fast than to imagine something like that with a muzzle loader.
That description matches real paper cartridges as well as it does anything else.
That description matches real paper cartridges as well as it does anything else.You, and the other people making the same claim, need to re-read what Pathfinder calls "cartridges" for primitive firearms.
I'll also note that Pathfinder firearms have to be breech loading rather than muzzle loading, basically because there are cartridges available. There's not even a way to do that with a muzzle loader, nor does it make much sense. And it's a lot easier to imagine reloading a breechloader with cartridges that fast than to imagine something like that with a muzzle loader.
Really?
Early firearms are muzzle-loaded, requiring a bullet and powder (or other special alchemical substances) to be shoved down the barrel before the weapon is fired. Early firearm ammunition can be loaded from a cartridge, but that cartridge is made of soft material (like paper or cloth) that is torn open so that the contents may be shoved down the barrel.
I'm really not seeing the ambiguity here.
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Really?
Early firearms are muzzle-loaded, requiring a bullet and powder (or other special alchemical substances) to be shoved down the barrel before the weapon is fired. Early firearm ammunition can be loaded from a cartridge, but that cartridge is made of soft material (like paper or cloth) that is torn open so that the contents may be shoved down the barrel.I'm really not seeing the ambiguity here.
Huh. You're right, I was looking under the cartridge description (and other places), not there. That makes very little sense in terms of cartridges working or existing. That's actually at least as big a realism problem as reloading times, at least for me.
I try to ignore the historically relevant side of the equation because of a healthy dose of suspension of disbelief. Why can the gunslinger fire multiple shots in a round? Well, why does a first level gunslinger's weapon turn into scrap if anyone other than them uses it? Besides, it has been relatively well explained that Golarion isn't Earth, and as such doesn't necessarily follow the same levels of historical setup. Maybe there are wizards who already invented the lightbulb, but figured that mass production of lightbulbs, electricity, and creation of an infrastructure to deliver it would be far less cost effective than an adept casting Light as a cantrip. We don't know, but it would make sense in the context of the setting, wouldn't it?
As far as flavor goes, I don't have a problem with keeping true to historical events or not. That being said, my problem is that after a certain point, the only thing that challenges a gunslinger is incorporeal undead. You could make a cool Ghostbusters style game off that, but if you want your players to fight anything without a hearty deflection and Dex bonus to AC, it's not even a threat to one of your players. My only suggestion is adding more ways to defend oneself from gunfire. The spell Bullet Shield helps, but doesn't stack with other deflection bonuses, so it's a bit limited. Amulets of Bullet Protection are also good, but they're terribly expensive. Even a barbarian can miss, but as a gunslinger your ability to hit touch AC within a certain range dampens that risk, without even touching upon advanced firearms.
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Why?
They were a real thing. The main advantage was that the loads were pre-measured and all in one place.
Much quicker than pouring from a powder horn.
Huh. Learn something new every day.
I try to ignore the historically relevant side of the equation because of a healthy dose of suspension of disbelief. Why can the gunslinger fire multiple shots in a round? Well, why does a first level gunslinger's weapon turn into scrap if anyone other than them uses it? Besides, it has been relatively well explained that Golarion isn't Earth, and as such doesn't necessarily follow the same levels of historical setup. Maybe there are wizards who already invented the lightbulb, but figured that mass production of lightbulbs, electricity, and creation of an infrastructure to deliver it would be far less cost effective than an adept casting Light as a cantrip. We don't know, but it would make sense in the context of the setting, wouldn't it?
Yeah. Why go to the trouble of creating the infrastructure to support light bulbs when Continual Flame is 100 gold and lasts literally forever?
I try to ignore the historically relevant side of the equation because of a healthy dose of suspension of disbelief. Why can the gunslinger fire multiple shots in a round? Well, why does a first level gunslinger's weapon turn into scrap if anyone other than them uses it? Besides, it has been relatively well explained that Golarion isn't Earth, and as such doesn't necessarily follow the same levels of historical setup. Maybe there are wizards who already invented the lightbulb, but figured that mass production of lightbulbs, electricity, and creation of an infrastructure to deliver it would be far less cost effective than an adept casting Light as a cantrip. We don't know, but it would make sense in the context of the setting, wouldn't it?Yeah. Why go to the trouble of creating the infrastructure to support light bulbs when Continual Flame is 100 gold and lasts literally forever?
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine as to why having cannons on ships is pretty silly, when an arrow of fireball could cripple a ship in short order, and only runs about 600 gp.
Besides, mass Continual Flame does not cost 100 gp a pop, or even 50. It's made from 4th level spells and Lantern Archons.
I shy away from Crossbows and Firearms because of their ridiculous rate of fire. I even DM a setting where crossbows were not invented yet because of it. Though I do allow them when I run a PF module or AP. I can't suspend the belief on it. I much preferred 2E rates of fire and the PC's normally took their shot and then pulled out a melee weapon.