I have killed more than one paladin. They can die, but I do admit they are hard to kill. They won't always be buffed, nor will they always have a full's day worth of lay on hands.
This.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think most Paladins have fine durability and i can see if you invest everything in defense you get hard to kill. But if you make a paladin built to prove your point i am sure that 20 guys can find a Challenge that can kill him.The thing is, stuff that can easily kill a Paladin absolutely flattens any other martial.
I am not talking about easily killing anybody. I think most folks think it bad GMery to send stuff at the PCs that will easily kill them. But Darksol was saying that paladins is Immortal.
Someone beliving there paladin to be Immortal will, most likely, learn it the hard way that it is not so.
Paladins can't worship Pharasma and get their paladin powers from her.
Have you considered Sarenrae? She HATES undead.
Is this a Pharasma specific thing or have I missed something?
I know Clerics and Inquisitors have to be within one step on the Good-Evil/Law-Chaos alignment axis compared to their deity but paladins only have the LG requirement so that should not be a problem.Several deities just don't make sense for paladins but this made me uncertain about the restrictions on Paladins
I am not gonna cry bad wrong fun. But it sounds like paladins get the easy treatment in your game.
I think most Paladins have fine durability and i can see if you invest everything in defense you get hard to kill. But if you make a paladin built to prove your point i am sure that 20 guys can find a Challenge that can kill him.
The sad part is that what I listed are perfect examples of proper defensive investment without actual compromise. He isn't sacrificing a damn thing on the offensive front, because he can still Power Attack all day long, and Smite just makes the slaughterhouse even more efficient.
As was said before in this thread, Oath of Vengeance allowing you to transform 2 Lay On Hand charges into a Smite just makes taking Extra Lay On Hands, something that was normally a fairly defensive idea, also work as an offensive option. Killing 2 birds with 1 stone like that, a concept that isn't possible any other way, just made that Paladin a lot more powerful both defensively and offensively.
It's not really "my game" when it's the RAW of the Pathfinder system. (That is, the Paladin has access to all those choices that would make him essentially immortal.) It can't be my design when I'm not the one who published these options for a Paladin Class to take.
I am not gonna cry bad wrong fun. But it sounds like paladins get the easy treatment in your game.
I think most Paladins have fine durability and i can see if you invest everything in defense you get hard to kill. But if you make a paladin built to prove your point i am sure that 20 guys can find a Challenge that can kill him.
The sad part is that what I listed are perfect examples of proper defensive investment without actual compromise. He isn't sacrificing a damn thing on the offensive front, because he can still Power Attack all day long, and Smite just makes the slaughterhouse even more efficient.
As was said before in this thread, Oath of Vengeance allowing you to transform 2 Lay On Hand charges into a Smite just makes taking Extra Lay On Hands, something that was normally a fairly defensive idea, also work as an offensive option. Killing 2 birds with 1 stone like that, a concept that isn't possible any other way, just made that Paladin a lot more powerful both defensively and offensively.
It's not really "my game" when it's the RAW of the Pathfinder system. (That is, the Paladin has access to all those choices that would make him essentially immortal.) It can't be my design when I'm not the one who published these options for a Paladin Class to take.
That does not make him immortal, but I think the use of such a strong word is the problem.
I am not gonna cry bad wrong fun. But it sounds like paladins get the easy treatment in your game.
I think most Paladins have fine durability and i can see if you invest everything in defense you get hard to kill. But if you make a paladin built to prove your point i am sure that 20 guys can find a Challenge that can kill him.
The sad part is that what I listed are perfect examples of proper defensive investment without actual compromise. He isn't sacrificing a damn thing on the offensive front, because he can still Power Attack all day long, and Smite just makes the slaughterhouse even more efficient.
As was said before in this thread, Oath of Vengeance allowing you to transform 2 Lay On Hand charges into a Smite just makes taking Extra Lay On Hands, something that was normally a fairly defensive idea, also work as an offensive option. Killing 2 birds with 1 stone like that, a concept that isn't possible any other way, just made that Paladin a lot more powerful both defensively and offensively.
It's not really "my game" when it's the RAW of the Pathfinder system. (That is, the Paladin has access to all those choices that would make him essentially immortal.) It can't be my design when I'm not the one who published these options for a Paladin Class to take.
at what level does the Immortallity kick in in your games? I ask because in my game, also the ones that have gone far, it never really shows up. Yes paladin is a solid choice both defensively and offensively but far from immortal.
Paladins may not be immortal, but they're a lot more capable of recovering from "Oh S*@#!" moments than most other classes. Between their great saves, DR 5/evil at level 17, decent health pool and Lay on Hands they have a lot of ways of avoiding death. It's one of the reasons that offensive Paladins are so appealing - you can hit stuff, and hard, but have a lot of tools to survive the retaliation.
wait stop hold everything: you can't be a paladin of pharasma?
wait stop hold everything: you can't be a paladin of pharasma?
You can if your GM houserules it. But otherwise it's typically LG, NG and LN deities only.
can't someone crusade for any cause though?
i thought the only (anti)paladin prereq was YOUR alignment, not those you worked for's (in this case being the big man/woman/tentacle monster upstairs)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Against a +30 attack, +1 AC is just as good on 34 AC as it is on 49 AC.
I REALLY hate when people are trying to prove a point and make statements that are based on bad math.
To crux of this question of taking Dodge is really that Dodge has much more benefit for characters that will focus on having a high AC then it does for characters who have a low to moderate AC.
If a monster needs a "4" or better to hit you (looking at AC 34 in Torchlyte's example), they have a 17 in 20 (85%) chance of hitting you. If you add one AC to that, they have a 16 in 20 (80%)chance of hitting you. That's a 5.8% improvement, or 5.8% less damage taken, on average.
If a monster needs a "15" or better to hit you (looking at AC 49 in Torchlyte's example), they have a 5 in 20 (25%) chance of hitting you. If you add one AC to that, they have a 4 in 20 (20%)chance of hitting you. That's a 20% improvement or 20% less damage taken, on average.
Please be careful when you make assumptions and state them as facts.
|
|
Corvino: I love your suggestion of Fey Foundling, but disagree with your pushing for Greater Mercy. +1d6 of LoH healing that doesn't scale is certainly not worth a feat - and it doesn't scale.
I don't see how DR is really elevant to a paladin thread, (Adamantine armor??), but DR really doesn't scale well either, unless you are talking about a Barbarian class feature of Archetype that actual scales with your barbarian level.
Taking three less damage when the hits are averaging 10-15 points is cool. taking three less damage when the monster bites for 25-40 doesn't make much difference.
While I can't actually find a specific rule for it to hand (I have no doubt someone else can), I'd run paladins on the same general principles as clerics - no more than one step from your deity's alignment. Why would Nethys (Neutral and completely crazy) or even Cayden Cailean (drunken adventurer) care about your code of conduct? Why would a warrior dedicated to a non-LG/NG/TN god give a damn about behaving in a rigidly good way?
*Edit* @Argus the Slayer - I was wrong about Greater Mercy scaling. It does however synergise with Fey Foundling for 1d6+2 additional healing. As for DR Paladins do get it (a bit), though the point was more to highlight that alternative strategies such as DR and high effective health pools count more than AC past mid-levels.
Dodge is useful as it boost your Touch AC, and there are things that use Touch which make a Paladin wince.
I'd take power attack over dodge any day. Especially with a two hander.
Sure, but you get many feats.
I finally found my traits only first level build.
So hah! Both are wrong you take the additional traits feat at first level and both power attack & dodge can kiss it.
The main reason to take Greater Mercy is because it's a feat tax for Ultimate Mercy. It happens to be quite awesome at level 3 although it doesn't scale.
If you don't want Ultimate Mercy you probably don't want Greater Mercy, although if your campaign uses the ultimate campaign retraining rules I'd still get it at level 3 and retrain out of it later.
I finally found my traits only first level build.
So hah! Both are wrong you take the additional traits feat at first level and both power attack & dodge can kiss it.
actually, there ARE some good feats floating about. i wonder if one could make a build centered around lots of traits to make up for things... also, on your assertion on half orcs being the only ones who dont drop: anyone who can cast hero's defiance will keep on ticking just fine.
anyway! back on topic: on dodge as a feat: i find it usually isnt worth it--why spend a precious feat for +1 AC when you could use skill in UMD for the shield spell (+4 AC), or a quick cast of protection from evil or litany of defense (doubles armor enhancement bonus) and/or vestment of the champion (scaling enhancement to armor or shield) from your own spell list instead (so even if you cant cast them yet, you can activate wands/scrolls/etc. without rolling for UMD).
It was a long time ago in this thread, but I wanted to say:
+1 to-hit definitely IS better than +1AC for a two-handing martial, unless you're already hitting on 2+ or have some specific need for AC. 3.x follows the basic rule that 'attack is better than defense, when all else is equal'.
Not that weapon focus is a very good feat - don't get me wrong, it's pretty terrible!
I finally found my traits only first level build.
So hah! Both are wrong you take the additional traits feat at first level and both power attack & dodge can kiss it.
Too bad Fey Foundling is a feat, not a trait.
Too bad Fey Foundling is a feat, not a trait.I finally found my traits only first level build.
So hah! Both are wrong you take the additional traits feat at first level and both power attack & dodge can kiss it.
Sandpoint Faithful is a trait.
But yeah, Fey Foundling is so good for self-healer, you need to take this @ 1st.
RotR Master Race. That is a good trait!