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18s are often overvalued. I think 25 PB w/o allowing more than one 8 (everything else must be at least 10, pre-racials) is a pretty good power level.
Of course, if you want to amp things to 11, go for it!
If you go with a 40 point buy, you will have to seriously re-vamp all the encounters. Otherwise the party will just walk all over their foes.
Personally, I would not advise a 40 point buy. Part of the game's fun is resource management and the real fear of character death. Furthermore, Pathfinder (and 3.x before it) are not the same game as 1e or 2e. Ability scores do _not_ need to be around the 16-to-18 level before any benefits start to kick in.
To give you a benchmark, the Paizo adventure paths are meant for 15-point characters. The Pathfinder Society organised play scenarios are meant for 20-point characters. While I don't yet have The Emerald Spire, I'm sure that it's meant for 15 to 20 point buy characters.
Why not just do a 20 point buy but tell anyone playing a MAD class to either double their racial bonuses for fixed attribute or two floating stat bonuses.
Why not just give extra PB to certain dedicated classes? A few extra points to the monks/clerics/rogues etc?
With 40pb you're just setting the game to "Easy Mode" and you're just asking for a headache.
Do you honestly want to see how far your players can go with great stats? Then why stop at 40pb? Just let them assign whatever they wish to their stats. No fuss, no fight, and everyone gets exactly the hero they dream about.
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Hmmmm... due to the scaling costs in point buy, I would say that this is not TOO insane....if you put a few conditions.
The point of this exorcise is to make more well rounded characters and let classes that rely on multiple stats to do as well as ones with only one focus. So just require that the players have to put at least a few points (maybe 5, to get base 14's) into everything. This would prevent them from getting a couple crazy stats by dumping others. With this, no one could even get a score above 19 (after racial mods)
And let's be honest- while a 14 in Int and CHA are nice to have...they hardly help too much during battle for most builds. The same for strength on a wizard.
The only real problem I see with this scenario is that everyone is kind of blandly good- they all have similar strengths. Usually, you will almost always have someone that is good in a couple of those stats (monk with his wisdoms, and thus good will saves; wizard with high int and a lot of skills; etc). You are also kind of removing the prerequisites like '13 int' or '13 str' from a lot of things.
Still- expect to raise save DC's a point or two if you want to catch anybody (although you might accidentally catch everybody, since they are a bit blanded out...)
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Personally, I prefer my own solution of 25 point-buy with no stat higher than 16 pre-racial, only one stat below 10, and that no lower than 8.
That allows MAD classes to have something like 18/16/16 (or 18/18/14) with the right Race, while SAD classes max at 18. That's pretty close to parity, or close enough for me.
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Just given them all 18's across the board and call it a day. They're touched by the divine or something.
40 points Will be Nice for a monk i would play a 18 16 14 12 18 13 versatile human monk.
40 points Will be Nice for a monk i would play a 18 16 14 12 18 13 versatile human monk.That's a 47 pt buy (17 10 5 2 10(+2racial) 3) unless you are using Dual Talent, of course.
"Versatile Human: While they lack some of the training of other humans, the natural talents of versatile humans more than make up for this lack. Replace the +2 bonus to any ability score, the skilled racial trait, and the bonus feat racial trait with dual talent."
A suggestion: instead of having 40 point buy, start with 20 point buy - but at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 do not give a static +1 to a stat. Instead give +3, +4, +5, +6, +7 additional point buy. (Players can save points if they want, even from level 1 onwards.)
The +3 at level 4 is not enough for a SAD player to push his primary stat to 19 or 20, but it is enough for a MAD player to push a 13 to 14 as well as an 11 to 12. (Since it is additional point buy, you do not have to apply the extra points to the same stat.)
Note that the point buy still applies on the values without racials, so a 18 (16 + 2 racial) can be pushed to 19 (17 + 2) at 4th level with +3 point buy.
Just given them all 18's across the board and call it a day. They're touched by the divine or something.
That's a 102 pt buy and not quite the same thing at all.
No it actually isn't very different. With 40pb it isn't hard to get two 18s; most builds only need a few stats. Bumping up your already fairly high 3rd and 4th stat to 18s grants only a small increase in power while bumping the dump stats up to 18s doesn't help at all. So while the points may look extreme (102 vs 40) they don't give much power for the big difference.
This is why I say just give them the stats they want and save the time spent counting point buy expenditures.
Just given them all 18's across the board and call it a day. They're touched by the divine or something.
That's a 102 pt buy and not quite the same thing at all.
Point being that they're all going to be so good at everything that it's hardly going to matter.
Just given them all 18's across the board and call it a day. They're touched by the divine or something.
That's a 102 pt buy and not quite the same thing at all.
No it actually isn't very different. With 40pb it isn't hard to get two 18s; most builds only need a few stats. Bumping up your already fairly high 3rd and 4th stat to 18s grants only a small increase in power while bumping the dump stats up to 18s doesn't help at all. So while the points may look extreme (102 vs 40) they don't give much power for the big difference.
This is why I say just give them the stats they want and save the time spent counting point buy expenditures.
Plus that.
40 point buy changes the game very little, so long as you're not following everything to the letter. The "problem" people generally cite with high-ability characters is that they blow CR-appropriate encounters out of the water, and that encounters that are more in-line with the party's power level have more varied ways to hurt them for which their levels can't compensate. This is an illusion perpetuated by an over-reliance on source material. If you want to do it right, just throw away the CR tables. Not only are they not helping you anymore, they'll actively hinder you.
Steal ideas from other games. High-ability characters deal tons of damage. A 20-strength Barbarian with a greatsword and Power Attack is going to dish out a lot of damage even without raging. Generally, this will be more damage than mooks have HP, and that additional damage is wasted. Consider houserules to make the damage spread around. The excess can spill over into the next guy or something. Single-target attackers will cut straight through mook squads, and area-effects become devastating. High-ability means high-power. Make the players know it.
A 20 STR barbarian is only going to be doing 1 more damage and get +1 to hit (which is only a 5% difference on the dice roll) compared to an 18 STR barbarian. And 18 STR is fairly much the benchmark for a 20 point buy barbarian. Things are not that radically different (I mean, a barbarian with power attack and a greatsword is cutting through pretty much anything anyway).
A high point buy character will first put things into the same stuff a low one will, and the caps on the scales means that the difference is not that great there. The real difference is that they will have a couple more skill points, their skill rolls are going to be a couple points higher (unless they relied on dumping CHA before; radical difference in intimidate scores there for your plain old barbarian), and the saves they might have let slip before will be a bit better. The highs will always be highs- the 40 point buy will just make the lows not be low.
You do need to throw out your ideas on CR, because yes, this causes problems. The problem here is not that all your characters are going to blow through everything. The problem is that traps and tricky beasts that were meant to catch the weakest part of one character (will save on a fighter) will have to be higher to work (the fighter now has a 16 in wis)....which means that it has a fairer chance on hitting a fair to high part of another (will save on a wizard). And thus, if you try to compensate for the stat difference with a pumped up CR...you will get the predictable results of facing a party against something with such a high CR. That is because the higher CR often not only means 'higher save DC's and stats' but also means 'more complicated and powerful abilities' that might require good defense or combat control magic...that the party is too low level to get their hands on.
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Just remember to adjust your NPCs and BBEG's to a 40-pt buy and you should be fine. And add a few enemy casters to each fight, and adjust the mooks' gear or HPs- but do note that this will cause combat to drag on at mid and higher levels, unless you want a cake walk.
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I don't use point buy, but I use a rolling method that tends to generate stats in the 40 point range.
Honestly, I prefer high stats. I feel more like the players are a party of heroes rather than civilians. I feel like it's less of a risk to challenge them, because they are more likely to rise to it. I feel like they are exceptional, rather than simply lucky.
Maybe they're the descendants of ancient heroes, maybe they're the chosen ones, maybe they're prodigies of blade and spell, the important thing is, they're the main characters, and I prefer their stats reflect this.
It may be the case that this makes them a bit powerful for an AP, but if this happens, just increase the number of creatures in an encounter. Maybe try adding two extra similar ones, like instead of three goblin warriors, five warriors. Single opponent encounters should have extra creatures added even if you're not using a high stat approach.
Reading this I feel like my process is evolving. I've gone from foaming mouthed rabid power gamer in regards to ability scores to foaming anti super stats, to now. Now its" meh . I'll go 15-25 pb at my table, you do what you want at yours." My tastes have run an enormous gamut over the last 25 years'sigh' lol. Just tired now, love the game, too lazy to modify bestiary entries/ NPCs. Thus the cozy pb range. 15 to me is a fun challenge, 20 is nice , a slight boost and with 25 I really feel free to make whatever concept tickles my fancy and expect it to function, with little or generally no stat dumping.
And I really don't see anything wrong with people having high stats. I eventually got bored of trivializing almost every encounter. Do what works. Also not really on topic but I have noticed some 3e FR NPCs are DEFINATELY well beyond 25 pb at their levels. Most don't even have stat boosting items:). To think I used to scoff at their puny stats! Now, aside from Elminster(lolz what a trumped up bearded b!@@+ he is on paper)I actually see them as having pretty good stats overall...to the point its hard to imitate them. I can make characters that can stomp Drizzt/Entreri/Bruenor, etc but their unboosted stats are better per se. I take from that, gear /feats/spell selections effect power level more than a few extra points in ability scores. Hence a 10th level 40 point barbarian without bells and whistles will pale beside a 25 pb barb with fine tuned bells and whistles. Ability scores are only a small piece of the picture.
IMHO, part of the fun of a character is having both strengths *and* weaknesses. Working around your weaknesses is a source of roleplaying energy. If those weaknesses don't come from a few low stats, maybe you should give those 40-point-buy superheroes some other weakness that they have to strive to overcome?
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Prohibit stat dumping seems like a great idea for characters to not be gimped in social or skill challenges. Being it's a home game, the gm is free to include whatever encounters he chooses, so players should be aware that designing characters shouldn't be handled like in organized play.
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I never understood why people think having super high stats allows them to walk through encounters. Higher stats for most classes hit a point of diminishing returns. Sure, you've got one thing you want to hit an 18 at, probably two things that'd be great to, but generally by the third one you're more meh on it.
It really helps MAD classes a lot more than SAD ones, which generally only results in having a few more HP, generally maybe a higher will save, and some more skill points. It's especially good for MAD classes that like having Charisma.
Honestly, I don't see how a wizard with a 40 point buy mows through encounters any more easily than a Wizard with 20, since there're still going to have that 18/20 Int, just slightly better AC (higher Dex) and HP (higher Con), although maybe I'll do a super high PB game and see how it plays out just to test this theory of mine.
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I would advocate that it's easier to balance MAD vs SAD classes with a standard array as opposed to point buy. My group uses 15, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10 - This gives SAD characters an 18 at level 4 with no dump stats, but also enables MAD characters to have three 16's at level 4 if their racial bonus line up right. Of course, you could always power that up to 30 point buy - 16, 16, 14, 13, 12, 10.
The stat power level you decide on (whether point buy, rolled array, standard arrays, etc.) really just determines how much you (the DM) will be required to modify challenges (monster, traps, puzzles, NPCs) to keep the game challenging - unless your group wants a game they can breeze through with minimal challenge, then 40 point buy would certainly accomplish that.
My real beef with point buy as compared to a standard array is that point buy tends to favor players who were already going to build more optimal builds than the average member of the group. Said another way, point buy is another tool for min-maxing - alongside everything else, this lets "optimizers" get even further ahead of the rest of the group.
Just my 2cp.
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I guess the reason I like the idea of a 40 point buy is it makes sub-optimal builds easier to make work. Sometimes there is a tradeoff between 'interesting concept' and 'combat effectiveness' (unless you're Ravingdork, who makes interesting concepts that are very effective).
I'm in LA for the summer and have friends who game in LA, so I'm hoping to run The Emerald Spire assuming schedules and interest line up. I'm assuming some people may want to play ACG classes, and some may want to play quirky concepts (dire bat riding halfling cavalier comes to mind). Say for example that there might be a shaman or druid, and someone plays an early-entry mystic theurge so the group has cleric spells. Assume wizard 2/cleric 1/mt X. The mystic theurge will be pretty underpowered until level 6 or 7, a high point buy makes it more workable. Or if a player wants to play a prestige class that is primarily an NPC prestige class- those have great flavor but are generally weaker than base classes.
If your players want to try non-optimal concepts then a higher point buy might indeed help compensate. If you do find they're too powerful for the AP, you can always throw in a few extra mooks, increase BBEG stats, or add the Advanced template to monsters - which is nice because it increases a few key numbers without bringing in those special abilities mentioned above that assume a particular level to deal with.
My group plays with generous (rolled) stats: the current game I'm in has a paladin with a whopping 42 point buy equivalent before racials: in order 18, 11, 16, 9, 14, 16. You'll note that it doesn't actually eliminate weak points. Between the average dex and heavy armour, the paladin has amusingly failed several dex-based skill checks. And it's not actually that much better than the 25-point array 16, 11, 14, 9, 10, 16. The difference is +1 attack, +1 damage, and +2 on will saves and a few checks. Definitely more powerful, but not overwhelmingly so.
higher point allotments have diminishing returns due to the higher attribute costs.