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Among many of the heated conversations to come out of the recent Free RPG Day module "Risen From the Sands" was a debate on how far a creature using the trample ability can move as part of its full round action - only its speed, or double its speed as if it were charging as part of a trample. The wording of the ability in 3.5 was very clear on the subject, but there is just enough vagueness in the Pathfinder wording of the ability, and the way that rules elements interact that there isn't a clear consensus. I know the way that I feel the rules should work, but I can see the validity in both sides of the argument. That, to me, is a clear indication that some official guidance is warranted.
Not looking for a user debate on the subject, as both sides have been very succinctly debated (to death, arguably) in other threads. I'm hoping for an official word from the design team on the intent of the ability. If you'd like to help that happen, please hit the FAQ button.
Well, lessee.
Trample (Ex)
As a full-round action, a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun any creature that is at least one size category Smaller than itself. This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path. Targets of a trample take an amount of damage equal to the trampling creature’s slam damage + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier. Targets of a trample can make an attack of opportunity, but at a –4 penalty. If targets forgo an attack of opportunity, they can attempt to avoid the trampling creature and receive a Reflex save to take half damage. The save DC against a creature’s trample attack is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s Str modifier (the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). A trampling creature can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.
Format: trample (2d6+9, DC 20); Location: Special Attacks.
The above informs me that the only difference between a trample and a regular overrun is that no check is required and damage results.
Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space....
The above is less clear and has been the subject of many threads. How can you take a standard action as part of a charge? A charge is already a full-round action; there's no room for another standard. Figure that one out, and you've figured out trample as well.
Also of note are peripheral concerns that come up if a trampling creature can move as if charging (straight line, no going through obstacles, difficult terrain, etc.). Charging as part of the trample was initially brought up due to the clause in the overrun maneuver. So, I suppose that there are three possible outcomes of the debate (can only move up to its speed while trampling, can charge as part of the trample, can move up to twice its speed [without the charging restrictions] as part of the trample).
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"The above informs me that the only difference between a trample and a regular overrun is that no check is required and damage results."
And trample is its own separate full-round action. Charging is prohibited. But no movement rate is given under trample. Mat Black has given the three possible outcomes, but the charge/trample combo is the least supported version.
Especially if you look at the 3.5 version.
Also if trample/charge is allowed, do targets trampling count as obstacles hence negating the ability to trample through multiple targets.
It seems to me trampling an enemy would exert more energy then moving past a ally so why would a ally block a charge but a trampled opponent not count as a obstacle?
Of course all this negated if you can't trample/charge in the first place.
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I should also point out here, that the issue at hand was always the amount of movement a trampling creature can take. The whole charge + trample concept arose, I believe, because of the mention of charging in the overrun section, and the particular setup of the encounter in the module (straight corridor, no obstacles, no creatures other than the PCs). Because of the particulars and that the debate was couched largely in the context of that particular encounter, I don't think that a lot of the larger implications came immediately to mind.
That being said, while I think it is the least likely of the options, I can still see the possible intent being that a trampling creature can do what might be thought of as a charging trample, essentially giving it double movement in a straight line (and all other qualifiers), but only getting the actual trample attacks on targets in its path (no target of an actual melee attack at the end).
I should also point out here, that the issue at hand was always the amount of movement a trampling creature can take. The whole charge + trample concept arose, I believe, because of the mention of charging in the overrun section, and the particular setup of the encounter in the module (straight corridor, no obstacles, no creatures other than the PCs). Because of the particulars and that the debate was couched largely in the context of that particular encounter, I don't think that a lot of the larger implications came immediately to mind.
That being said, while I think it is the least likely of the options, I can still see the possible intent being that a trampling creature can do what might be thought of as a charging trample, essentially giving it double movement in a straight line (and all other qualifiers), but only getting the actual trample attacks on targets in its path (no target of an actual melee attack at the end).
That's basically how I ended up running overruns re: charges: You can overrun during the charge, but you don't get the melee attack at the end. The rules don't really support it very well, but it feels right from an action economy standpoint, so I'll stick with it barring clarification.
Trample I just view (based on the first quote earlier) as an augmented version of overrun, so it gets the same treatment, including the ability to use it during a charge. Not being able to do so seems to be against the spirit of the ability.
I'm with Blahpers and Mat. I consider the Overrun (or Trample) to be the attack, which CM's are, of the charge - getting the bonuses and penalty associated.
Please note that I have very carefully not stated my personal opinion on the way trample is intended to work, as I do see equal validity in the various interpretations on how it could be intended. I don't have a horse in this race one way or the other, except to see it clarified. Thanks, though. :)
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I have wondered about the mention of charge in the definition of overrun.
My guess it is just to make clear that overrun can be used at the end of a charge rather than just the end of a single move. It's not there to muddy the waters for trample.
So I suspect that a trampler can take a double move right over smaller creatures but the sooner we get something FAQ'd the better. How it affects beings it overruns on the way to finishing it's move on an illegal square is another thing I wonder about too!
Who knows, if a trampler can just keep rolling over smaller beings as if they were not there, up to the maximum extent of it's move heaven help us against the hasted, running Elephants out there :-)
Who knows, if a trampler can just keep rolling over smaller beings as if they were not there, up to the maximum extent of it's move heaven help us against the hasted, running Elephants out there :-)
This may or may not have been the reason for all of the mysterious elephant tracks throughout the temperate Vesve Forest in the Living Greyhawk campaign. I can neither confirm nor deny that fact nor my participation or lack thereof in such shenanigans.
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The matter is complicated by Bull Rush making it clear when you Charge and Bull Rush the person rushed is the target. Overrun doesn't say anywhere who gets Overrun. So you are left to wonder if it is someone in the way (making Charge Through useless), the target (why did they say explicitly in Bull Rush and not Overrun) or the target before or after the charge attack?
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I'd also be interested to hear an official clarification. If it is ruled as a special type of overrun, then clearly it can be combined with charging. If the creature further has the power attack, improved overrun and charge through feats, then it's a no brainer as those allow you to overrun one target while charging another, even if the opponent is up to one size larger than you.
Trample gives the targets the chance to avoid or take AoO, so it isn't equivalent to improved overrun in that regard (which is a prerequisite for charge through, which allows you a free overrun of one target.)
I think the size differential would be my deciding factor in the absence of a ruling. If the squishies are only one size category smaller, they may not stop the overrun but they could be considered difficult terrain, thus negating a charge through without the feat. Anything smaller is not going to slow down a trampling creature.
A creature in the way stops a charge unless you have charge through or they are too small to have any chance of impeding your movement. But the same creature does not stop an overrun or trample at normal speed. For charge through to make any sense, it sounds like without it you have to be charging the target of the overrun to use charge and overrun at the same time. I suppose you could charge and trample the same target if there were no other interposing figures or barriers in the way. But otherwise, the trampling slows you down.
Having just run Risen from the Sands last night, I came to the forums to look over comments on it.
As for Trample I consider it an Attack, and unless otherwise noted in it's stats, a monster gets only ONE attack per round. So I run it that a monster can make 1 Trample attack per round. If it is Large and there are 2 Medium or Small foes directly in front of it, then it's gets both. It can continue moving until it comes to another foe (or the end of it's speed), then it must stop and cannot make another Attack (Trample) until the next round.
That's how I have been doing it for years anyway and it works out well for me.
