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I have played for quite a while and, particularly in pfs, combat reflexes is a mechanically wasted feat, though psychologically gratifying.
Mechanically it is wasted because nothing ever provokes an aoo if it can avoid it leaving you with a rare few opportunities to ever attack more than once in a round. That said, that once or twice a year when it does happen, monsters die and the party is happy but if you had just selected another feat, you could have achieved more consistent results.
Obviously characters with reach can use it and there are feat paths and PRC requirements where Combat Reflexes must be known to qualify. Aside from those specific builds, the feat seems like an utter waste.
At what point does a general melee character decide it is not worth the feat slot? Have you ever made a build without it? A tank without it? How did that work out for you?
Inquiring minds want to know. :)
*edit* I forgot to add that some builds can force aoo's, usually through combat maneuvers. Exclude those, as well.
In my opinion, while being mandatory for any reach build, it's not that important for normal melee. The only non-reach melee character who took it was an Ifrit Barbarian, who could get Large size (and gain Reach). So no, not that mandatory.
if we're only going with builds who can't abuse AOO then no, combat reflexes isn't the way to go.
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Does your GM give up many attacks of opportunity? That's that biggest thing.
Combat Reflexes is great if you have a 14 or higher Dexterity and can force multiple provocations, whether it's the same enemy casting a ranged touch spell against you or a bunch of enemies trying to move past you toward the party squishies.
It's also mandatory for Aid Another builds, since it's a pre-requisite (and basically becomes your bread and butter) for Bodyguard. Combine that with Swift Aid, and you're able to help confirm both your martial's highest hit (only gives half of Aid Another total bonuses), lowest hit (full bonuses with readied Aid Another), and cover his AC with AoOs from Bodyguard.
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It depends on what else you have.
Reach Weapon? Worth it.
Combat Patrol? Worth it.
Improved Snap Shot? Worth it.
Greater Trip? Worth it.
Normal non-reach weapon without any supporting feats? Not needed.I dunno about the improved snap shot one. I have a gunslinger with that and combat reflexes, and yet I've found that in the entire time I used it only one enemy ever provoked; I've found that enemies will never try to rush you, casters always succeed on casting defensively, and when you're in the thick of things everyone just five foot steps anyway.
I'm considering retraining the whole line into something else honestly. It seems really pointless unless you're a reach trip build or something.
I've had fun with it by using it to lock down enemies moving to engage other party members. This was on my Brawler Fighter using Agile Wushu Darts to hit with heavy damage and also had disruptive, Spellbreaker, and stand still.
are you the only melee in the group? If you've got multiple front line guys, you can use trips to devastating effect. When one successful trip triggers 2 or 3 AoO's against the now prone AC, good things happen.
Panther Style feat chain plus combat reflexes is a lot of fun.
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I have played for quite a while and, particularly in pfs, combat reflexes is a mechanically wasted feat, though psychologically gratifying.
Mechanically it is wasted because nothing ever provokes an aoo if it can avoid it leaving you with a rare few opportunities to ever attack more than once in a round. That said, that once or twice a year when it does happen, monsters die and the party is happy but if you had just selected another feat, you could have achieved more consistent results.
Obviously characters with reach can use it and there are feat paths and PRC requirements where Combat Reflexes must be known to qualify. Aside from those specific builds, the feat seems like an utter waste.
At what point does a general melee character decide it is not worth the feat slot? Have you ever made a build without it? A tank without it? How did that work out for you?
Inquiring minds want to know. :)
*edit* I forgot to add that some builds can force aoo's, usually through combat maneuvers. Exclude those, as well.
No, if you don't have anything that synergizes with Combat Reflexes, it's not a very useful feat. Durr.
Combined with a reach weapon, it's almost a "must have". Non-intelligent monsters will often charge.
If you dont have a Way to generate AoOs then you wont get any, and combat reflexes wont be great. Just like weapon focus(some weapon) only Will be worth somthing if you sometimes attack with that weapon. At low levels clever use of difficult terrain can generate lots of AoOs even with out reach.
Does your GM give up many attacks of opportunity? That's that biggest thing.
I have more than once heard my GM give an NPC's reasoning while we were in combat with them. "That PC already took an opportunity attack on my buddy. Most likely he can't do that again, so I won't worry about provoking him as I charge the caster he is guarding." I am looking forward to the first time he tries that against my eidolon with Combat Reflexes (which he will, the next time an appropriate circumstance for it comes up).
It depends on what else you have.
Reach Weapon? Worth it.
Combat Patrol? Worth it.
Improved Snap Shot? Worth it.
Greater Trip? Worth it.
Normal non-reach weapon without any supporting feats? Not needed.
Bodyguard? Worth it.
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People tend to forget this... but it also allows AOO while you're flatfooted. I have gotten critical use from this aspect alone.
Though, as people have said, if you don't use any other tactic that is meant to get access to AOO, it is not the strongest feat.
Snake style is another melee style that needs combat reflexes
I hate it when Combat Reflexes is a prereq for stuff, though it's at least better than Combat Expertise.
It is not bad with reach builds, especially at lower levels. Later on it can be traded out, unless you extend its use with lunge.
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This is what I thought.
@Pupsocket I asked because it is such a universal fest for melee characters of so many types. I feel naked without it. I have had the feat on almost every melee character I have made for years. And looking at some of my current builds, I realized that it was a wasted feat slot. It feels really strange leaving behind something you know for the unknown. Combat Reflexes has been my safety net that never caught anything. It got me asking why 'general' characters should ever take it. Even against an unintelligent for, you are not likely to get or need more than one aoo. More than that and the thing should be dead.
Point being, I had not realized it wasn't something I lacked synergy with because in the back of my mind I had always thought this feat will give me extra attacks as soon as... but the myriad of readily potential opportunities simply never arrive. Now I know. And a wise man, I think, once said that that was half the battle. :)
It is not bad with reach builds, especially at lower levels. Later on it can be traded out, unless you extend its use with lunge.
You can't lunge on AoO's though...
I hate it when Combat Reflexes is a prereq for stuff, though it's at least better than Combat Expertise.
Combat Expertise is a great feat, and is practically mandatory for AC-based tanks to be relevant in the later levels.
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That's a big factor right there. Experienced GMs tend to give their monsters the same level of combat and tactical savvy as Patton with a good night's sleep. "Of course he doesn't step back to save his sibling, that would provoke!"
I would hope an experienced GM would gibe their monsters the same level of combat and tactical savvy as is appropriate to their Intelligence, Wisdom, experience, and cultural context.
Bodyguard? Worth it.It depends on what else you have.
Reach Weapon? Worth it.
Combat Patrol? Worth it.
Improved Snap Shot? Worth it.
Greater Trip? Worth it.
Normal non-reach weapon without any supporting feats? Not needed.
Brawler archetype fighters/other fighters with the pindown feat? Worth it if you have Stand still.
The Stand Still feat lets you use you use the AoO to do an maneuver that stops movement in adjacent squares that draws AoO's. Obviously, this is normally rather limited in that range, since targets can usually just 5 foot step or withdraw, and generally avoid moving in your adjacent squares.
But the pindown feat for 11th level fighters (and the Brawler archetype's No Escape ability at level 9) changes that. Suddenly, for 5 foot steps and withdraws cause AoO's. And since stand still can stop AoO drawing movement.... You can stop them in their tracks. Suddenly, that wizard is feeling the pressure since they can't just dash back to safety before trying to cast a spell. And they can't even just avoid you since you could just charge up to them at the start of the fight.
Brawler fighters are particularly good at this, since they get an ability at level 13 that gives half their level as bonus to the stand still maneuver.... that is enough to change it from 'something to use on low strength, 1/2 BAB enemies' to 'something fairly reliable against anything'. You can lock down even beefier threats...which means that you can keep your squishier team mates from getting chomped on by that demonic half dragon T-rex. This also makes them great for TWF builds, since their opponents can't escape from their full attacks.
It is not bad with reach builds, especially at lower levels. Later on it can be traded out, unless you extend its use with lunge.You can't lunge on AoO's though...
If you manage to provoke AoOs in your own turn i guess you can.
It's practically a mandatory feat with swashbucklers from the ACG, as it lets them you parry and riposte more often.
It is not bad with reach builds, especially at lower levels. Later on it can be traded out, unless you extend its use with lunge.You can't lunge on AoO's though...
The plan is to use lunge during normal combat and have them provoke when they try to go to melee you. Without lunge they only need to take a 5ft step to be in melee range unless you step back, but sometimes that can put you in a bad tactical position. I like using the AoO to trip them. That puts me in a very advantageous position if I succeed.
I went into shadowdancer with my fighter. Had a friend complain that u don't have to go rogue to go into it. I said it had a feat tax. He would reply that all of the feats were useful. I never once got a use out of combat reflexes. I got few uses out of mobility. A gm who is good at tactics and no reach this feat is worthless.
In the games I run: absolutely not. I haven't used AoO from movement since 3.0 introduced the idea. Never liked it. I also decided that, to my internal sense of logic, AoO from a range attack only made sense if it wasn't targeting the person who threatened (if you're about to shoot someone, you're not taking your attention away from them). Casting defensively always seemed automatic, so really there's not much need in my games for multiple AoO.
That said, my games are probably atypical.
I hate it when Combat Reflexes is a prereq for stuff, though it's at least better than Combat Expertise.Combat Expertise is a great feat, and is practically mandatory for AC-based tanks to be relevant in the later levels.
That's great for them? AC tanks seem to be suboptimal in my experience because most monsters with at least some INT are going to figure out after 1 or 2 rounds they can't hit the Armor Master Fighter and are going to switch targets. All the AC in the world doesn't mean anything when no one rolls an attack roll against you (in a game with many other avenues of defeating armor, like attacking your saves, or Touch AC, or CMD).
Frankly, I don't see why it should be a prereq for Trip builds instead of Combat Reflexes other than the designers thought you ought to have a feat tax to take advantage of Greater Trip.
The plan is to use lunge during normal combat and have them provoke when they try to go to melee you. Without lunge they only need to take a 5ft step to be in melee range unless you step back, but sometimes that can put you in a bad tactical position. I like using the AoO to trip them. That puts me in a very advantageous position if I succeed.It is not bad with reach builds, especially at lower levels. Later on it can be traded out, unless you extend its use with lunge.You can't lunge on AoO's though...
So you are still talking about using a reach weapon?
Sorry if i am a bit slow.:)You hit them at 15 ft. with lunge and reach and force them to take a move action to reach you.
I think combat reflexes is worth it because, combined with one of the Many ways to force AoOs, it is a way Martials can get a feeling of being in charge of combat.
Early game, Combat Reflex is one of the best way to increase damage output for Martial classes. While combine with Lunge, it's where 25-75% of attacks comes from. Later on, it's less so. However, when your team have someone who is a trip, overrun or grapple master, you need this. Every AoO you can get helps because Martials at late game can't do much.
IMO, even a dex +0 character with a reach weapon should take Combat Reflexes. It's that good.
IMO, even a dex +0 character with a reach weapon should take Combat Reflexes. It's that good.
What is gonna be the fun of that?
I went into shadowdancer with my fighter. Had a friend complain that u don't have to go rogue to go into it. I said it had a feat tax. He would reply that all of the feats were useful. I never once got a use out of combat reflexes. I got few uses out of mobility. A gm who is good at tactics and no reach this feat is worthless.
Considering the feats involved, going for shadow dancer also pretty much qualifies you for spring attack (dodge, mobility, the point where 3/4 BAB classes get +4 BAB, a minimum dex that should at least make combat reflexes useful).
Combined with a reach weapon (unclear whether your last comment meant a conditional statement about 'it is worthless without reach'; if that is what you meant...well, this is not quite as enlightening, but might still be interesting), you can be a major pain in enemy rears. It has the similar advantages as that lunge strategy mentioned above- attack, get out of the way, and let enemies draw AoO's as they move to engage you.
Shadow dancers simply have the added advantage of being able to stealth afterwards to make it all the more annoying ("the enemy barbarian pounces at square D3" "I'm in square B5 actually; the barbarian realizes that after I smack him in the back of the head")
I consider combat reflexes to be important because it's a mook killer. My GM is pretty good at playing NPC's appropriate to their abilities and the little group of mooks isn't very smart and the smarter enemies will take cautions to avoid an AoO which can be a benefit in it's own sense.
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Early game, Combat Reflex is one of the best way to increase damage output for Martial classes. While combine with Lunge, it's where 25-75% of attacks comes from. Later on, it's less so. However, when your team have someone who is a trip, overrun or grapple master, you need this. Every AoO you can get helps because Martials at late game can't do much.The benefit of lunge ends at the end of your turn. It will not give you reach to make opportunity attacks when it is not your turn. The two don't work well together at all.
They work well, but mostly in how they put you into a strategic position.
Normally, when you use a reach weapon, there are 2 scenarios: 1.) An enemy approaches you from a far, and has to cross your threatened squares in order to reach you (lets ignore creature with good reach themselves here), drawing and AoO and 2.) You approach an enemy, getting it into the threatened squares 10 feet away. The next turn, the enemy merely has to take a 5 foot step (which doesn't draw AoO) in order to get to you an attack on you, AND they get their full attack as well.
Lunge has the advantage in that it turns scenario 2 into scenario 1. You approach the enemy to attack, and you can do so at 15 feet instead with lunge. This means that it takes more than a 5 foot step to reach you next turn, AND they have to cross your normal threatened area as well. This means that they will draw AoO's, AND they will also not get their full attack (Well, unless they can pounce, I suppose; but hey- an AoO on an enemy with AC-2)
This is a bit like Should my wizard take Power Attack - err no unless you've built something that needs it...
To the OP, sausages... ask a stupid question...